Suns @ Pelicans Monday game thread 4-1-2024

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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IIRC we went up 27 when Devin hit one of two free throws with about 8 minutes left in the 3rd. But, ebbs and flows. We had runs, they had runs; we had more of them. The Pels pulled to within 18 early in the 3rd quarter before we went on our run which of course, they followed with a big run of their own. But despite that 27 point 3rd quarter lead, it was just a 13 point difference going into the 4th quarter.
And they cut it to 7 with plenty of time to close. But it IS difficult to close a full 27 point deficit.
 
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Mainstreet

Mainstreet

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he's a yes man now - multi-billionaires only deal with yes men

with sarver he was a i promise not to tell anybody man - so the yes man is quite the step up

Things could change once Mat Ishbia gets his new G-League team going.

At some point, the Suns will focus more resources on scouting young players to improve their depth. Can James Jones shift gears?

I can see the Suns trading their 2024 draft pick for a veteran player, though, with their closing window.
 

1982baskets

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Come on, Vogel has not "done his job, fairly." Sure, we have some personnel issues as well, but Vogel takes a huge amount of blame. "Team believes they can win against anyone"? Really? You can hate on the players all you want, but to give Vogel a free pass is mind boggling.

He deserves to be fired immediately after the season is over, but I won't be surprised if they decide to keep him for another year, especially if we keep James Jones on staff.
They are top 10 on offense, and top 13 on defense. Before the season, most experts thought if the Suns even had top 15 defense, Vogel did his job well.

The thing is, our offense hasn't taken off like some hoped/anticipated. There are many reasons for this. By far, the number one reason is that none of Beal/Durant/Booker have really taken leadership of the team. Charles had it right. Someone needs to be the leader. If you look at every great team, there is no question who the leader is. On this team, sometimes we get it from Beal, sometimes KD and sometimes Book. Book seems to only want to be a MVP when his family come to see him play.

What we lack, Vogel nor any coach can make up for. We need someone that will take ownership of the team and be the go to guy. We don't have that. Look at Nuggets with Jokic. Or Lebron with the Lakers (or any Lebron title team). Look at Bucks when they won with Giannis. Every team that wins a title or gets to that level, they have that leader they can rely on. This team doesn't have that kind of player. KD is a great scorer, but he doesn't do it that way. He won joining Curry's team where Curry/Dray were the leaders. Beal, he's an all-star caliber player but also not a leader of that degree. Booker? He's not having that kind of season leadership wise. So when a team is built this way, you need a point guard who can lead the team. Someone who may not be the best player/scorer on the team, but who can lead through the difficult periods and keep the team running the right plays. This is the player we are sorely sorely lacking to get the level of a legit title contender.
 

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They are top 10 on offense, and top 13 on defense. Before the season, most experts thought if the Suns even had top 15 defense, Vogel did his job well.

The thing is, our offense hasn't taken off like some hoped/anticipated. There are many reasons for this. By far, the number one reason is that none of Beal/Durant/Booker have really taken leadership of the team. Charles had it right. Someone needs to be the leader. If you look at every great team, there is no question who the leader is. On this team, sometimes we get it from Beal, sometimes KD and sometimes Book. Book seems to only want to be a MVP when his family come to see him play.

What we lack, Vogel nor any coach can make up for. We need someone that will take ownership of the team and be the go to guy. We don't have that. Look at Nuggets with Jokic. Or Lebron with the Lakers (or any Lebron title team). Look at Bucks when they won with Giannis. Every team that wins a title or gets to that level, they have that leader they can rely on. This team doesn't have that kind of player. KD is a great scorer, but he doesn't do it that way. He won joining Curry's team where Curry/Dray were the leaders. Beal, he's an all-star caliber player but also not a leader of that degree. Booker? He's not having that kind of season leadership wise. So when a team is built this way, you need a point guard who can lead the team. Someone who may not be the best player/scorer on the team, but who can lead through the difficult periods and keep the team running the right plays. This is the player we are sorely sorely lacking to get the level of a legit title contender.
Solid speak…
 

Chaplin

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They are top 10 on offense, and top 13 on defense. Before the season, most experts thought if the Suns even had top 15 defense, Vogel did his job well.

The thing is, our offense hasn't taken off like some hoped/anticipated. There are many reasons for this. By far, the number one reason is that none of Beal/Durant/Booker have really taken leadership of the team. Charles had it right. Someone needs to be the leader. If you look at every great team, there is no question who the leader is. On this team, sometimes we get it from Beal, sometimes KD and sometimes Book. Book seems to only want to be a MVP when his family come to see him play.

What we lack, Vogel nor any coach can make up for. We need someone that will take ownership of the team and be the go to guy. We don't have that. Look at Nuggets with Jokic. Or Lebron with the Lakers (or any Lebron title team). Look at Bucks when they won with Giannis. Every team that wins a title or gets to that level, they have that leader they can rely on. This team doesn't have that kind of player. KD is a great scorer, but he doesn't do it that way. He won joining Curry's team where Curry/Dray were the leaders. Beal, he's an all-star caliber player but also not a leader of that degree. Booker? He's not having that kind of season leadership wise. So when a team is built this way, you need a point guard who can lead the team. Someone who may not be the best player/scorer on the team, but who can lead through the difficult periods and keep the team running the right plays. This is the player we are sorely sorely lacking to get the level of a legit title contender.
Unfortunately, there is no accountability and no creativity. You say we are top 10 on offense and top 13 in defense. Then why are we fighting for a play in spot? The eye test on the actual basketball court shows some major issues with coaching/play calling/game management. The only thing that Vogel and his staff excel at is calling for challenges. We are a historically bad 4th quarter team. You'd expect the coaches to make adjustments after a few games. But here we are, 73 games in and we are still seeing really bad 4th quarters. We have seen time and time again that we go away from what's working in the previous 3 quarters, and it never changes.

The defensive intensity also doesn't get sustained--part of the reason for that is Vogel's stubborn insistence on a very set substitution pattern. We are seeing that blatantly with Bol Bol. He also rides with Eric Gordon for longer than he should. Those are just a couple examples.
 

Covert Rain

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They are top 10 on offense, and top 13 on defense. Before the season, most experts thought if the Suns even had top 15 defense, Vogel did his job well.

The thing is, our offense hasn't taken off like some hoped/anticipated. There are many reasons for this. By far, the number one reason is that none of Beal/Durant/Booker have really taken leadership of the team. Charles had it right. Someone needs to be the leader. If you look at every great team, there is no question who the leader is. On this team, sometimes we get it from Beal, sometimes KD and sometimes Book. Book seems to only want to be a MVP when his family come to see him play.

What we lack, Vogel nor any coach can make up for. We need someone that will take ownership of the team and be the go to guy. We don't have that. Look at Nuggets with Jokic. Or Lebron with the Lakers (or any Lebron title team). Look at Bucks when they won with Giannis. Every team that wins a title or gets to that level, they have that leader they can rely on. This team doesn't have that kind of player. KD is a great scorer, but he doesn't do it that way. He won joining Curry's team where Curry/Dray were the leaders. Beal, he's an all-star caliber player but also not a leader of that degree. Booker? He's not having that kind of season leadership wise. So when a team is built this way, you need a point guard who can lead the team. Someone who may not be the best player/scorer on the team, but who can lead through the difficult periods and keep the team running the right plays. This is the player we are sorely sorely lacking to get the level of a legit title contender.
The Suns are number 13 but spent a big chunk of the season in the late teens. The main reason they are there is because they have led the league for a big chunk of the season in blocks per game (currently top 5) and been a leader in defensive rebounding #7. Deep dive though you see it's feast or famine. I would rather us be mostly ranked in the middle then be on top with a few stats and towards the bottom on others.

Opp points off turnovers: 25th
Opp 2nd chance points: 22nd
Opp Fast break points: 18th
Defensive Bench #18
4th quarter margin: 30th
 

Suns_fan69

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They are top 10 on offense, and top 13 on defense. Before the season, most experts thought if the Suns even had top 15 defense, Vogel did his job well.

The thing is, our offense hasn't taken off like some hoped/anticipated. There are many reasons for this. By far, the number one reason is that none of Beal/Durant/Booker have really taken leadership of the team. Charles had it right. Someone needs to be the leader. If you look at every great team, there is no question who the leader is. On this team, sometimes we get it from Beal, sometimes KD and sometimes Book. Book seems to only want to be a MVP when his family come to see him play.

What we lack, Vogel nor any coach can make up for. We need someone that will take ownership of the team and be the go to guy. We don't have that. Look at Nuggets with Jokic. Or Lebron with the Lakers (or any Lebron title team). Look at Bucks when they won with Giannis. Every team that wins a title or gets to that level, they have that leader they can rely on. This team doesn't have that kind of player. KD is a great scorer, but he doesn't do it that way. He won joining Curry's team where Curry/Dray were the leaders. Beal, he's an all-star caliber player but also not a leader of that degree. Booker? He's not having that kind of season leadership wise. So when a team is built this way, you need a point guard who can lead the team. Someone who may not be the best player/scorer on the team, but who can lead through the difficult periods and keep the team running the right plays. This is the player we are sorely sorely lacking to get the level of a legit title contender.
Agree with most of this though I don't agree that it has to be the point guard that leads the team.
The two most well known big 3's (Celts PP, Allen, KG and Miami Bron, Wade, Bosh) were lead by non pgs (KG and Bron respectively).

Miami is an interesting example as they had struggles when Wade/Bron were trying the 1A/1B route, and were unlocked when Wade deferred to Bron and became the clear #2.
 

Chaplin

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The Suns are number 13 but spent a big chunk of the season in the late teens. The main reason they are there is because they have led the league for a big chunk of the season in blocks per game (currently top 5) and been a leader in defensive rebounding #7. Deep dive though you see it's feast or famine. I would rather us be mostly ranked in the middle then be on top with a few stats and towards the bottom on others.

Opp points off turnovers: 25th
Opp 2nd chance points: 22nd
Opp Fast break points: 18th
Defensive Bench #18
4th quarter margin: 30th
We are also 11th in assists without a "true" point guard.
 

Covert Rain

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We are also 11th in assists without a "true" point guard.
That is not hard to get with all the scorers you have. It's when the game slows down and trying to initiate the offense when not having a true PG becomes a problem. It's going to be especially problematic when the game slows down in the playoffs.
 

Chaplin

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That is not hard to get with all the scorers you have. It's when the game slows down and trying to initiate the offense when not having a true PG becomes a problem. It's going to be especially problematic when the game slows down in the playoffs.
And then that leads to the question of which point guard out there would actually get meaningful playoff minutes? I can think of a handful and they are all starters on their respective teams. And you would certainly have to sacrifice at least Grayson Allen in any lineup that includes a true point guard, so the gains don't necessarily outweigh the losses.
 

Covert Rain

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And then that leads to the question of which point guard out there would actually get meaningful playoff minutes? I can think of a handful and they are all starters on their respective teams. And you would certainly have to sacrifice at least Grayson Allen in any lineup that includes a true point guard, so the gains don't necessarily outweigh the losses.
Just about every team has a PG that is going to get regular rotation minutes. I don't think we need a star at PG. We just need some competence that can get us into sets and make the occasional shot to keep teams honest. This team makes the dumbest turnovers dribbling to the top of the key and trying to get things started.
 

Chaplin

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Just about every team has a PG that is going to get regular rotation minutes. I don't think we need a star at PG. We just need some competence that can get us into sets and make the occasional shot to keep teams honest. This team makes the dumbest turnovers dribbling to the top of the key and trying to get things started.
A point guard isn't going to help the unforced turnovers and we do a lot of those. Just look at KD.
 

Covert Rain

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A point guard isn't going to help the unforced turnovers and we do a lot of those. Just look at KD.
Not all of them for sure. However, someone whose job it is to set things up will cut down on them which we need. Just like we need a competent ball handler with things slow down in the playoffs. We have seen how this team handles the ball in that situation.
 

BirdGangThing

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actually it's genius

turn the ball over all season long - sometimes at a historical clip - be mindless of passing lanes - aim at the opponents feet during bounce passes - lob the ball to teammates who haven't established position - and ignore the double team - so much so every team in the league expects it

now this is the hard part - and will take a lot of dedication

keep doing it - even when opponents over anticipate keep doing it - even when the game's on the line keep doing it - even when you fall in the standings as the post season nears AND when it begins - keep doing it - actually i forgot where i was going with this - my bad fellas - go suns
 

Bufalay

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I noticed Royce Oneale's passing seems to have gotten worse since he joined. Is there something about Vogel's system that encourages carelessness?
 

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I noticed Royce Oneale's passing seems to have gotten worse since he joined. Is there something about Vogel's system that encourages carelessness?

It's like Vogel tells everyone to pass to where they're going, or supposed to go, instead of where they are. It's insane.

The offensive system is absolutely horrible in so many ways. Little to no movement, bad passing, poor spacing, and horrible isolation plays that lead to inefficient shots.
 

Covert Rain

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I noticed Royce Oneale's passing seems to have gotten worse since he joined. Is there something about Vogel's system that encourages carelessness?
The fact that he wants everyone to play the ball handler for starters.
 

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It's like Vogel tells everyone to pass to where they're going, or supposed to go, instead of where they are. It's insane.

The offensive system is absolutely horrible in so many ways. Little to no movement, bad passing, poor spacing, and horrible isolation plays that lead to inefficient shots.
Thadeus Young's passes seemed so crisp and accurate in the few minutes he's played so far. I guess he hasn't adopted this idiotic mindset yet.
 

nashman

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Thadeus Young's passes seemed so crisp and accurate in the few minutes he's played so far. I guess he hasn't adopted this idiotic mindset yet.
Agreed can’t believe he’s not getting minutes! Vogel is intent on running guys into the ground with heavy minutes rather than use the bench! Hate hate hate hate Vogel!
 

1982baskets

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Unfortunately, there is no accountability and no creativity. You say we are top 10 on offense and top 13 in defense. Then why are we fighting for a play in spot?

We are fighting for a play in spot because the big 3 were unhealthy most of the season. We've gotten only half a season of the big 3. Then, the bench has been for the most part, a make shift of veteran minimum players who are either going to be out of the league or again veteran minimum players next year. The deadline deal for O'Neale, brought us our first legit quality bench player. We have 6 reliable players and have a roster that is very top heavy without a point guard. Any sort of strong regular season would have needed that top heaviness of that roster - meaning Beal/Book/KD - all perform exceptionally well.

If before the season anyone told you this team would have Beal play only 48 games, Booker 63 games, and the big 3 play less than 40 games together, yet the team is 12th on defense, 8th on offense and 8th in net rating, that is not a bad coaching job. I don't beleive the metrics support this is a poorly coached team. I do believe that had Beal been healthier and Booker, then we would have had a much better regular season. If the big 3 played 65 games together, we'd probably surpass 52 wins and we'd be talking about having home court in round 1.

Lets look at this way. Steve Kerr makes 25 million a year and his team has a MVP level Curry, and they sit at 10th. The Heat have a great coach in Spoelstra and sit in the play ins as well. Just because your team is in the play in stage or not having home court in round 1, doesn't mean your coach sucks. You have to look at the entire picture, the season on a whole. The fact that Beal and Book missed so many games greatly impeded what we can do in the regular season.

And PS holding Minnesota who were first in the West coming in to last night's game to 87 points is quit a feat. We've better defensively than advertised. There have been many points in the season where this team could have quit on Frank. Instead it seems they have rough patches yet still believe they can get the job done. I don't know what else he's supposed to do really. He was brought in to get them to believe they're good enough to win (even though they aren't) and he has. He was brought in to get them to defend better than their anticipated level. He has. It was Young's job from what I understand to make the offense elite. And in fairness, Young (and Vogel) can't accomplish that without a healthy big 3.

I'm not sure it was here, but preseason I was asked where the Suns would be. I said based on Beal's health, and the lack of a point guard, defensive shortcomings, if Beal were healthier than he has been with the other stars, we could get into the 52 to 54 win range. If Beal wasn't healthy, we'd be in the 45 win range. I never thought this team was going to be a dominant, league leading, beast.

Funny enough, it does seem we're getting on track at the right time. Still hav a few games to go, but teams that tend to get hot at the right time can do some playoff damage.
 
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CardNots

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Unfortunately, there is no accountability and no creativity. You say we are top 10 on offense and top 13 in defense. Then why are we fighting for a play in spot?

We are fighting for a play in spot because the big 3 were unhealthy most of the season. We've gotten only half a season of the big 3. Then, the bench has been for the most part, a make shift of veteran minimum players who are either going to be out of the league or again veteran minimum players next year. The deadline deal for O'Neale, brought us our first legit quality bench player. We have 6 reliable players and have a roster that is very top heavy without a point guard. Any sort of strong regular season would have needed that top heaviness of that roster - meaning Beal/Book/KD - all perform exceptionally well.

If before the season anyone told you this team would have Beal play only 48 games, Booker 63 games, and the big 3 play less than 40 games together, yet the team is 12th on defense, 8th on offense and 8th in net rating, that is not a bad coaching job. I don't beleive the metrics support this is a poorly coached team. I do believe that had Beal been healthier and Booker, then we would have had a much better regular season. If the big 3 played 65 games together, we'd probably surpass 52 wins and we'd be talking about having home court in round 1.

Lets look at this way. Steve Kerr makes 25 million a year and his team has a MVP level Curry, and they sit at 10th. The Heat have a great coach in Spoelstra and sit in the play ins as well. Just because your team is in the play in stage or not having home court in round 1, doesn't mean your coach sucks. You have to look at the entire picture, the season on a whole. The fact that Beal and Book missed so many games greatly impeded what we can do in the regular season.

And PS holding Minnesota who were first in the West coming in to last night's game to 87 points is quit a feat. We've better defensively than advertised. There have been many points in the season where this team could have quit on Frank. Instead it seems they have rough patches yet still believe they can get the job done. I don't know what else he's supposed to do really. He was brought in to get them to believe they're good enough to win (even though they aren't) and he has. He was brought in to get them to defend better than their anticipated level. He has. It was Young's job from what I understand to make the offense elite. And in fairness, Young (and Vogel) can't accomplish that without a healthy big 3.

I'm not sure it was here, but preseason I was asked where the Suns would be. I said based on Beal's health, and the lack of a point guard, defensive shortcomings, if Beal were healthier than he has been with the other stars, we could get into the 52 to 54 win range. If Beal wasn't healthy, we'd be in the 45 win range. I never thought this team was going to be a dominant, league leading, beast.

Funny enough, it does seem we're getting on track at the right time. Still hav a few games to go, but teams that tend to get hot at the right time can do some playoff damage.
Seems like a lot of effort scratching one’s head on this version of the Suns.

I will say in all my years watching the NBA there are more good teams than bad maybe for the first time.

No easy wins for any team. Add injuries to the equation and times get tough. Lots of outstanding players throughout the league both young and not so old.

Or so it seems?
 
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