So you all want to fire someone?

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Lex
Ok mr. "I've got a life."

This thread is about firing the people that decided Suggs was the 16th best player in the draft. Clearly wrong.

Can you explain that last part Lex? I don't understand why trading down to 17-18 meant we thought Suggs was the 16th best player?

Do you assume we traded down figuring Suggs would still be there? If so you should be saying 17th best player.

 

[RLakin]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
OK but given that Tolbert apparently had to convince us to take Boldin at 54, how do you know we'd have taken him at 37? We may have taken Taylor Jacobs or Bethel Johnson, both taken AFTER 37, but before 54 and both rated ahead of Boldin on most boards. It's impossible for us to know we'd have gotten Quan if we took Suggs.

That's hindsight plain and simple because Boldin is playing so well. Originally when this stuff came up after the draft people were saying we could have got Johnson at 37, now because Boldin is so good we're saying Boldin instead.

I'd take the 3 we got over Suggs and Boldin FYI, what we have now at WR is thin enough without Johnson we'd be ridiculously bad.

That's fine. It's impossible to sort through all the hypotheticals that accopany a debate like this. To me, though, it's real simple. You had a chance to draft an impact player at the position you needed the most. That position was a pass rusher not RDE or 3-4 OLB. It's ridiculous to pass on a playmaker because he doesn't fit the desired measurables that go with the base defense you're running. News flash: if your defense has several 30 or worse rankings, the system should not be considered immovable. In college coaches plug players into their system. In the pros, they build their systems around them. I would have loved to seen the Cards switch to a 3-4 or create a special position for Suggs ala KC w/ Derrick Thomas. It's aggresive thinking, which is much more than can be said for the Graves plan of plugging Pace and RE with no talent surrounding him.

 

[Lex]

Russ- I was at the draft party. When Pasch and Mistler announced that we had traded down from #6, they thought it was a great move, even though our #1 need, a pass rusher, was on the board, the most prolific pass rusher in college history, Terrell Suggs.

We left the draft party shortly after that. Later that day, we were told that the Cardinals wouldn't have taken Suggs with the 6 pick anyway, because we had him rated 16th on our board.

The funny thig about that, is we had the 17th pick after trading down.

It was BS IMO. We saved an estimated 2 million dollars by trading down. Good thing too, or we'd only be 10 million over the cap.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by RLakin
That's fine. It's impossible to sort through all the hypotheticals that accopany a debate like this. To me, though, it's real simple. You had a chance to draft an impact player at the position you needed the most. That position was a pass rusher not RDE or 3-4 OLB. It's ridiculous to pass on a playmaker because he doesn't fit the desired measurables that go with the base defense you're running. News flash: if your defense has several 30 or worse rankings, the system should not be considered immovable. In college coaches plug players into their system. In the pros, they build their systems around them. I would have loved to seen the Cards switch to a 3-4 or create a special position for Suggs ala KC w/ Derrick Thomas. It's aggresive thinking, which is much more than can be said for the Graves plan of plugging Pace and RE with no talent surrounding him.

I agree but we all knew we weren't going to a 3-4 with Mac as the coach.

The guy I wanted was Leftwich, the reason I wasn't railing on it is I KNEW we weren't picking a QB with 2 second year players and Blake already there.

In our system if Suggs hadn't come in like Simeon did his rookie year that's what we'd be complaining about right now, what's wrong with Suggs.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Lex
Russ- I was at the draft party. When Pasch and Mistler announced that we had traded down from #6, they thought it was a great move, even though our #1 need, a pass rusher, was on the board, the most prolific pass rusher in college history, Terrell Suggs.

We left the draft party shortly after that. Later that day, we were told that the Cardinals wouldn't have taken Suggs with the 6 pick anyway, because we had him rated 16th on our board.

The funny thig about that, is we had the 17th pick after trading down.

It was BS IMO. We saved an estimated 2 million dollars by trading down. Good thing too, or we'd only be 10 million over the cap.

Thanks I had forgotten what the 16th rated player bit was about but you're right they did say that after teh draft we had him rated 16.

We went down to 17 because that's where the Saints picks were, not because we thought Suggs would be there. I will say if he had been we'd have taken him over pace.

I just didn't grasp what you were saying, now I do.

thanks

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
now I'm confused, all I said was I prefer the 3 we got, to Suggs and Boldin, which is what we MIGHT have wound up with had we stayed pat. Given the apparently discussiong over Quan at 54(from last weeks post saying Tolbert convinced us to take him) it's entirely possible we'd have passed on him at 37 and taken someone else.

Boldin doesn't figure into the equation at all, Russ. He would have been available. I don't care if we would have/should have taken him or not, he isn't part of the 'trade equation'. The main players here were (enter whoever we should have taken at #6) AND our 4th rounder (which, again, you've forgotten), OR Pace and Johnson. That's it. Either we get two mid-first rounders OR we get a high first rounder and a fourth rounder. End of story. It's not confusing and Boldin doens't enter into the equation.

Personally, I'd have rather had, and still would rather have, Lefty and a 4th round pass rush specialist or CB than Pace and Johnson, but that's just me.

 

[az240zz]

Originally posted by Wild Card
Lex:

The Cardinals pulled off a big upset last week because the Green Bay Packers collectively collapsed from heatstroke and, for a single Sunday, made the Cards look better than they are. The national press--not to mention local observers--probably gave both the team and the coaching staff more credit for that win than they deserved.

Play that game again on a neutral field (i.e., one where the gametime temperature on the field is somewhere in the double-digits) and the Cards are 0-4.

WC

Isn't that what's called home field advantage. Don't the cold weather teams beat up on the warm weather teams when games are played at their fields in the middle of December.

Lets then take all the games played in Green Bay in December and mone them to a neaytral site!!!!!

Az240z

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by Stout
...Lefty and a 4th round pass rush specialist or CB than Pace and Johnson, but that's just me.

That was exactly what I wanted. When we did make the trade, I wanted Faine and a CB. Given the choice of Suggs and the 4th or Pace and Johnson, I would still choose the later (Pace and Johnson).

 

[rtjim]

Originally posted by PACardsFan
The HC is ultimately responsible & accountable for the success or failure of a football team. This team has NOT demonstrated that it has improved one iota since Mac took over the reins. Good people get fired all the time, usually because they are BAD coaches. Good coaches WIN, that's why they're good coaches. Coach Mac is a GREAT guy, but a bad HC. If Bidwill has any chance to turn this franchise around, he needs to start by bringing in someone with NFL Head Coaching credentials. It will cost him plenty of money & even a few draft picks if necessary. Otherwise, I'm afraid he'll go to his grave watching a **** team year in & year out. This isn't rocket science guys, that's the ONLY choice he has.

What he said

 

[CardinalChris]

Originally posted by Lex
I think we should fire the people that determined Terrell Suggs was the 16th best player available in this years draft. Ironic, that we had the 17th pick at that time, eh?

Terrell Suggs is the first player in NFL history to record a sack in each of his first four games.

Terrell Suggs has DOUBLE the sacks of our entire team. Let's face it, we have no sacks, the two recorded sacks by Ronnie Mac, were just stats, not real sacks, we actually have zero sacks.

Dave McGinnis is the only reason most players come here, or stay, the players love Mac, and if he's not here, we're in worse trouble.

We lost that game yesterday on the first play of the game. A sack, and 15 yards for grounding, 2nd and 25 from the 6 yard line. We must run the ball, from the start of the game. Once we get in trouble like that, we can't run the ball.

I've seen a lot of "give up" in this team, that we didn't have the last 5 years. We've given up the most points in the league, and we've given up in three of our 4 games, that's why the margins were so big. I feel the players don't think we can come back like we used to, so we give up.

But not Mac. he didn't give up, he was calling timeouts at the end of that fiasco in st. louise.

I wish we would "give up" running good people out of town.

You actually seem to know something about football, but you use it to say "I told you so" instead of in any way constructive. Let's be honest.. Suggs on our defense? Maybe one sack this year. It helps to play on baltimore. I still don't see Suggs as a "game changer" though.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by jmr667
I agree. What has Suggs done against the run. Who would we put in on running downs if Suggs was here.

Besides, even if Suggs were here he wouldn't have time to get to the QBs before they zipped the ball into ANOTHER hole in the zone coverage.

Suggs is not here so all this is moot.

 

[john h]

Originally posted by Lex
I think we should fire the people that determined Terrell Suggs was the 16th best player available in this years draft. Ironic, that we had the 17th pick at that time, eh?

Terrell Suggs is the first player in NFL history to record a sack in each of his first four games.

Terrell Suggs has DOUBLE the sacks of our entire team. Let's face it, we have no sacks, the two recorded sacks by Ronnie Mac, were just stats, not real sacks, we actually have zero sacks.

Dave McGinnis is the only reason most players come here, or stay, the players love Mac, and if he's not here, we're in worse trouble.

We lost that game yesterday on the first play of the game. A sack, and 15 yards for grounding, 2nd and 25 from the 6 yard line. We must run the ball, from the start of the game. Once we get in trouble like that, we can't run the ball.

I've seen a lot of "give up" in this team, that we didn't have the last 5 years. We've given up the most points in the league, and we've given up in three of our 4 games, that's why the margins were so big. I feel the players don't think we can come back like we used to, so we give up.

But not Mac. he didn't give up, he was calling timeouts at the end of that fiasco in st. louise.

I wish we would "give up" running good people out of town. [/QUOTE

It is not hard to figure out we have a real bad team and lack of talent. If Graves put this team together then he should be fired. He is the one is said do not judge us until after June. I suppose we were supposed to sign someone then. The defensive scheme sure does suck. Even a novice like me would have given up on rushing 3 men while their QB tore us up yet the Headcoach and DC continued on down this path. We need more than 1 first round stud to turn this team around. We will forever be haunted by the Bidwill ownership factor. Players and agents know about him. Who wants to play before a crowd of 22,000. I have no idea where we go from here. I have supported this team for over 50 years and this may be the worst team we have ever put on the field. We are an embarassment and what few of us there are deserve better.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

Nobody ever complains about the head coach until after they are fired. Everybody liked Tobin, but after he got canned, everyone started to talk differently. Once Mac gets canned, players will start talking about needing a change of pace, more discipline, etc. Complaining about your current head coach is like shooting yourself in the foot. It's the fastest way to the bench.