Signing bonus = risk. Salary = no risk.

Ed B

The Matt Joyce of Posting
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
4
Signing Holliday to a 6 year $24 million deal with just a $4 million bonus would be a masterstroke.

Let's assume it's the typical cardinal deal (even salaries every season) and $4 million up front.

So, every year his salary would be $3.33 million.

Let's say he plays two years and sucks or is always hurt. We have paid him $10.66 million for 2 years (bonus + 2 years salary). We cut him. While he did make out like a bandit with our money ($10.66 million for just 2 years of work), our ability to "cut our losses" is significant. We'd take a very small cap hit, since cap hit is directly related to pro-rated signing bonus.

In this scenario, when we cut him after the second season, the cap hit applied to the 3rd season would be a manageable $2.6 million. If his bonus were something on the order of $10 million, his cap hit would be in excess of $6 million if cut after 2 years.

Salary is meaningless from the team's perspective. You cut the guy and simply don't have to pay him. It's the bonus that kills you. If you understand the formula you understand just how f*cked teams like Oakland and Washington are for signing ancient players to phony 8 year contracts and then cutting them after a season or two.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,765
Reaction score
35,169
Location
Charlotte, NC
I agree Ed.

If Holliday proves to be worth it, it's all gravy, and if not, we won't have to worry too much about an outrageous cap hit. We are offering him the best contract, so we have a very good chance of signing him.

If we sign Holliday, this offseason will start to look like a success, though not as successful as it could have been. Rosie Colvin with Holliday, Dexter Jackson, Jeff Blake, Emmitt, Hodgins, Darling, Garcia, and Spikes would have been an A+ offseason.
 
OP
OP
E

Ed B

The Matt Joyce of Posting
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
4
It's amazing if you sit down and actually do the math on how big of a cap hit Oakland takes to do something like sign Rod Woodson to a 6 year deal with a $6 million bonus and then cut him after a year or two. And they do that with a dozen different guys.
 
OP
OP
E

Ed B

The Matt Joyce of Posting
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
4
Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
Good post Ed, I've been trying to say the same thing, but you explained it much better.

Back when the cap was $38 million, it killed us to take cap hits for guys like Joyner or Simmons. But in a couple years the cap will probably be $90 million, so it's of very little consequence to a team with a healthy cap situation like us to swallow a $2.6 million cap hit to cut a guy.
 

RLakin

All Star
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
572
Reaction score
0
Location
North Glendale
Originally posted by Ed B
If you understand the formula you understand just how f*cked teams like Oakland and Washington are for signing ancient players to phony 8 year contracts and then cutting them after a season or two.

I'm sure the defending AFC champs and Sporting News executive of the year Bruce Allen will figure the error of their ways and strive for the Cardinal-esque formula of bigger base pay and less signing bonus.
And "phony" 7 year (you can't do 8 years) contracts are given so they can spread the bonus over a longer period of time. That way, unlike the Cards and their $2.5 bonus 2-year Emmitt hit, you can fit more quality on to your roster for an effort to win immediately.
And that's trick. The Raiders could care less about 2004, let alone 2005. They want to win now. Same with Baltimore in 2001. They knew there was a one year window, but getting to another Super Bowl was more important than worrying about their salary cap situation in one year. As it turns out they made a decent Super Bowl run in 2001, and still finished better than the Cardinals this year.
It's ridiculous to think that the Cards have it right while two of the last 3 AFC champs have it wrong.
 

Red Air Force

DILLIGAFF
Joined
Aug 31, 2002
Posts
1,693
Reaction score
1
Location
U.S. Air Force
Ahhh yes, but at least we will be consistient from year to year, instead of huge swings from both ends of the spectrum. j/k ;)
 

RLakin

All Star
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
572
Reaction score
0
Location
North Glendale
Originally posted by CaliforniaCard
Ahhh yes, but at least we will be consistient from year to year, instead of huge swings from both ends of the spectrum. j/k ;)

What?

2000-2002: AZ 15-33, 2 last place finishes, 0 playoff apperances

2000-2002: Oak 33-15, 3 division titles, 1 Super Bowl berth
 

Cardinals.Ken

That's Mr. Riff-Raff to you!
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Posts
13,359
Reaction score
60
Location
Mesa, AZ
Originally posted by RLakin
What?

2000-2002: AZ 15-33, 2 last place finishes, 0 playoff apperances

2000-2002: Oak 33-15, 3 division titles, 1 Super Bowl berth

Ya, but Oakland sucks!
 

JasonKGME

I'm a uncle's monkey??
Joined
Sep 15, 2002
Posts
1,286
Reaction score
1
Location
Justin, TX
Originally posted by RLakin
What?

2000-2002: AZ 15-33, 2 last place finishes, 0 playoff apperances

2000-2002: Oak 33-15, 3 division titles, 1 Super Bowl berth


2004-2006: AZ 35-13, 3 Division titles, 1 SB win

2004-2006: Oak 14-34, salary cap hell, working on trying to get out of it.


Oakland was on the verge of being great when they made all their salary cap decisions, knowing that in another year or two they are going to be cutting players and playing a whole bunch of rookies!

We are not at that point yet, I think by the end of next year we will be, which means next year we might very well start doing some contracts that push us over the edge, but whats the point of ruining your cap unless your ready to because your making the big push.
 

RLakin

All Star
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
572
Reaction score
0
Location
North Glendale
Originally posted by JasonKGME
2004-2006: AZ 35-13, 3 Division titles, 1 SB win
2004-2006: Oak 14-34, salary cap hell, working on trying to get out of it.


You forgot to write April Fools.
 
OP
OP
E

Ed B

The Matt Joyce of Posting
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
4
Re: Re: Signing bonus = risk. Salary = no risk.

Originally posted by RLakin
It's ridiculous to think that the Cards have it right while two of the last 3 AFC champs have it wrong.


So they have it right? We should mortgage the future?

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose.

I think you're ignoring that while some teams (The ravens, notably) won it by mortaging it all for one season, many more teams have won it by building a solid core of players like Tampa, Denver, Green Bay, and the Rams.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
21,314
Reaction score
16,200
Location
Chandler, Az
I agree with Ed. I would rather build a team that is constantly a playoff contender than go for the Gold one year and be screwed for many years down the road.

Oh wait. Buddy Ryan already did that to us.
 

ajcardfan

I see you.
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
39,811
Reaction score
28,426
Ruck the Faiders and Duck Favis. I don't need to hear a Cardinals fan talking them up. I take enough crap from their fans at SDS.

There are several better models for building a team out there, IMO.
 
OP
OP
E

Ed B

The Matt Joyce of Posting
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
4
For every team that has built a contender by mortgaging the future there are 10 that have done so without mortgaging it.
 

AntSports Steve

Cardinals Future GM
Joined
May 16, 2002
Posts
1,119
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, Arizona
I like this salary cap theory thread...

What you spend on the team DOES corroalate to on field performance. Now, there are plenty of examples of teams that did not spend their money wisely, and teams that spent low and still won. But, overall, the more money you spend, the better the team.


I think there are 3 types of team cap spending out there:

1) Low budget teams (only a few teams) -

Now, the Cardinals and the Bengals spend below the cap for an extended period of years. The Cards have come close and have used all the cap by the end of most of those years, but they never really spent over the cap. If the cap was a stable $100M, then these teams 10 year average cap expensise would be $97 million (less if your team is the Bengals).

Note, the Cardinals actual for the last 2 years and this year, have pushed money into their current year's cap to make it look like they are spending to the cap. Example, most teams would have cut Wadsworth after June 1st, but the Cards cut him in March, so instead of his cap hit being spread over 2 years, the cap hit was taken all at once, making it look like the Cards are spending to the cap.

2) Push cap $$$ into future years (Most NFL Teams) -

These teams are always stressing the cap. They cut players after june 1st to fit their rookies. They redo veterans deals to fit 1 more quality player under their cap. If you look at their actual expensense each year for a 10 year period, for the my imaginary $100 stable cap, these teams would always be spending about $106 million. Which means, they are in a constant state of mortgaging their future, but as long as you can keep pushing money out into the future, you can overspend forever.

3) Shoot the Moon (very few teams, Oakland this year)

Teams that think they have a chance can sacrifice the future and add 3 or more quality vets. They can end up spending huge amounts over the cap for 1 last push. Teams only do this if they think they can win it all. Teams can only do this for 1 or possibly 2 years. After that, it's time to pay the piper. You can either take the SFO's choice (the correct way) and burn down your team and start completely over and get back under the cap in 1 or 2 years.
Or, you can go the Dallas route (wrong way) and try to put your team back into the Push cap $$$ into future years mode. Here's why this is not a good idea. If your team overspent the years before and you owe $20M and you try to push more out into future years, you might be able to keep pushing about 90% of that $20M into future years. Also, since you are only pushing 90% (taking about 10 years to get back to normal) your actually spending $2M less (10% of $20M) than the other teams in Push $$$ into future mode, so now your team is only spending $104M per year until you catch up. That means the other teams are outspending you for a long period of time. Also, to keep pushing that much, your team needs to cut many players each year on June 1st, causeing roster churn of high order. It's hard to build a good team with large roster churn and all the other teams are out spending you.

Dallas has been doing this until this year. I believe they cut Emmitt before June 1st just so they can give up and take the cap hit and get back on an even footing with the rest of the NFL.

Teams like SFO, who burn down their roster to recover their cap space, will fininsh close to last in 1 or 2 seasons, but will get quality draft picks and go back to the "push $$$ into the future mode" and become competitive again quickly. Fresh cap, Quality high draft picks = Back in business

------------------------

Until the Cards start getting with the way most of the NFL do business and spend over the cap, they will always subpar, but not bottom of the barrel team. The bottom of the NFL will go to teams like Cin who underspent the cap by $6M last year, teams that are burning down to start over, or mega injury teams. Then come the teams like the Cards, that are not playing the NFL spending game. They field a just below average team, get the second tier of draft picks, under spend, and go a constant 4-12 to 8-8 year after year.

To correct this, the Cards need to start signing players to backloaded contracts, giving incentives, and pushing cap hits into future years. If they did this, they could have signed twice the number of players.

The Cards should never be in the situation they are in now, which is, under the cap, with few quality veterans left in free agency to sign. To fill their cap this year, the Cards are going to have to sign several average or below veterans to contracts. Which means, the Cards starters will be below average in talent, but the depth will be possibly the best in the nfl. Or, you could say, most of the team is at the backup/starter transisition level of play. Meaning on most teams the Cards players would probably be backups with just a few starters.

There are 32 Teams in the NFL. Take the top 20 from each position. Would any of the Cards players make the top 20?

Think about it, on def none of the DL would make it.
Starks is probably top 20.
Would McKinnon be? I'm not sure.
The new FS, Jackson is probably top 20, so that's a good addition.

On offense, some of the OL guys would be, but no QB, No WRs.
Is Emmitt top 20? Marginal at best, probably not.
If Emmitt wasn't on the team, I would guess Shipp is around 15.
I have F. Jones rated as the 22nd best TE.

If Boston was still on the Cards, he's top 10, possibly top 5.

In conclusion, even though the Cards signed many free agents, they are still being outspent by the majority of the nfl each and every year.
 

Latest posts

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
663,090
Posts
5,624,541
Members
6,357
Latest member
Hakt
Top