Shout out on D McNabb
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Gambit
First-Class Second-Rate Poster
He was off at times but otherwordly at others. All he lacks in consistency. He has all the talent. He sure made things interesting.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
I can understand that but I also think that that thought process may not actually be in line with what Reid wants to actually do. From the little that I've watched the Eagles it seems that the big, tall receiver is what the TE's are used for. Wasn't LJ Smith a pretty high draft pick? Williams and Jackson were both high picks too weren't they? A big, tall receiver is a nice idea when seeing what Fitzgerald can do but there are just as many(or more) Mike Williams out there. TO and Fitz are rare specimans so I don't know how critical I would be of Philly for not going out to find one. Especially when they seem to focus more on 2 WR sets and may not feel they can afford a slower receiver. I'm not sure why they've gone after the speed guys like Jackson and Curtis but they have.
My problem with this mindset is that the Falcons used to claim the same thing with Vick. It was never Vick's fault for not being able to get the ball to the receivers it was that the Falcons didn't go out and get a Randy Moss, TO, etc. I think Jackson and Curtis could be a very dangerous tandem with a QB better suited to what is there on offense right now. I will grant you that if they were actually trying to build around McNabb that they didn't do a very good job of complimenting his talents.
I just don't know what would help McNabb though. Even if he had that big, playmaking WR I don't know how long he could sustain or even if he could reach success considering how much trouble he has hitting guys who are wide open that are there now. And this is all beside the issue of how he performs in the NFC Championship games. He's almost reaching Schottenheimer status as a playoff choker.
I commend McNabb for coming back in the third quarter but there were so many passes in the other three quarters that were simply bad throws, I can't be too forgiving of him even though his totals wound up looking good. Completing less than 60% of his passes in the very accomidating WCO is not good. I think there were at least 5 truly bad passes that weren't only incompletions but really big play opportunites that could have been. If he hits any of those plays the Eagles are in a lot better shape and the whole game is different.
My problem with this mindset is that the Falcons used to claim the same thing with Vick. It was never Vick's fault for not being able to get the ball to the receivers it was that the Falcons didn't go out and get a Randy Moss, TO, etc. I think Jackson and Curtis could be a very dangerous tandem with a QB better suited to what is there on offense right now. I will grant you that if they were actually trying to build around McNabb that they didn't do a very good job of complimenting his talents.
I just don't know what would help McNabb though. Even if he had that big, playmaking WR I don't know how long he could sustain or even if he could reach success considering how much trouble he has hitting guys who are wide open that are there now. And this is all beside the issue of how he performs in the NFC Championship games. He's almost reaching Schottenheimer status as a playoff choker.
I commend McNabb for coming back in the third quarter but there were so many passes in the other three quarters that were simply bad throws, I can't be too forgiving of him even though his totals wound up looking good. Completing less than 60% of his passes in the very accomidating WCO is not good. I think there were at least 5 truly bad passes that weren't only incompletions but really big play opportunites that could have been. If he hits any of those plays the Eagles are in a lot better shape and the whole game is different.
Apologies - I think the Williams reference is for another team. Jackson was a standout for sure but it's another luck-of-the-draw draft pick. Just like Westbrook. LJ is a liability that the real fans haven't liked for at least 2-3 years now. We're happy that Celek might actually overtake him now, for better or worse. But as a fanbase we have been nothing but clear that a tall, playmaking WR should be the #1 priority for the last eight years now. It's our most vocal request - from casual fans, hardcore fans, and most of the local media. It's impossible that the front office doesn't understand that at this point but we don't get to make those decisions. And I'd say the Eagles at at least a 3-WR set base offense. 3 WR, 1 RB, 1 TE, no fullback.
There you go.
Hard to say, though. Yes, we are critical of his likelyhood to throw behind guys and low. But any time a ball hits a WR/TE in BOTH hands, it should be caught. The Eagles tend to drop those. A lot. And even if they aren't getting into position for a 10-yard catch turned into a 40-yard score, the drops mean they don't even get the first down. So it makes McNabb's failings come to the forefront even more often. And while the offensive line and blitz pickup meshes well with McNabb's scrambling ability, having just one tall WR to throw a jump ball to (ala Fitzgerald) would make things incredibly better. This has ben obvious for eight years and the only real attempt to solve it was a rental on a tempremental Owens.
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He will go down as a good, but not great, QB. He went 3 for 8 on the final drive, which is a typical performance for him in clutch situations. Contrast this with Kurt Warner, as I pointed out on the Eagles Message Board, who has faced five playoff games where his team trailed or was tied on the final drive. The results? 5 TDs, 4 passing TDs, 0 INTs, and a perfect 158.3 passer rating. Kurt Warner is why the Cardinals are playing in the SB and the Eagles are not.
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OP
OP
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yesterday is a tough one to pin on McNabb --
One each of the Eagle 2nd half scoring drives, he had passes that if thrown a foot in one direction would have been picked off, or a foot in another would have been incomplete.
The long one to Curtis -- that ball had about a 10 inch window to fit through from 50 yards away
I guess the argument is: The Eagles need a QB to bail out the defense when they blow it. (which I guess is what the Cardinals had yesterday in Warner)
One each of the Eagle 2nd half scoring drives, he had passes that if thrown a foot in one direction would have been picked off, or a foot in another would have been incomplete.
The long one to Curtis -- that ball had about a 10 inch window to fit through from 50 yards away
I guess the argument is: The Eagles need a QB to bail out the defense when they blow it. (which I guess is what the Cardinals had yesterday in Warner)
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Hank Baskett 6'4", 220 lbs.
Reggie Brown 6'1", 197 lbs.
James Thrash 6'0", 200 lbs.
Charles Johnson 6'0", 200 lbs.
Torrance Small 6'3", 209 lbs.
I think size may not be the problem for the WR's that the Eagles have had since McNabb came along in 1999. Quality perhaps, but it doesn't look like Philly has ignored the idea of having some size at WR. I would guess that they have devoted cap space to defense and McNabb/Westbrook and haven't been able to go after a high dollar/talented big WR but they have tried to give some size to the passing game over the years.
Reggie Brown 6'1", 197 lbs.
James Thrash 6'0", 200 lbs.
Charles Johnson 6'0", 200 lbs.
Torrance Small 6'3", 209 lbs.
I think size may not be the problem for the WR's that the Eagles have had since McNabb came along in 1999. Quality perhaps, but it doesn't look like Philly has ignored the idea of having some size at WR. I would guess that they have devoted cap space to defense and McNabb/Westbrook and haven't been able to go after a high dollar/talented big WR but they have tried to give some size to the passing game over the years.
Hank Baskett is the only one that really counts. The rest were complete castoffs from a pre-McNabb era. Reggie Brown is a clear bust and Baskett is a competant 4th stringer at best. That still leaves them leaps and bounds away from a true sizable #1 or even #2 caliber WR on the team in eight years.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
But the point is they haven't ignored the idea of having a big target(s) for McNabb to go to. They may not have worked out or wound up being busts but they were still brought in. Evaluating talent is a far cry from ignoring a need.
The Eagles have historically been driven by their defense and McNabb, Staley, Westbrook, etc. have all been higher up on the food chain in terms of the cap so developing a WR with draft picks/trades doesn't seem foolish on the surface. They've drafted WR/TE pretty high at times to try and help McNabb and at least some of the culpability in them not succeeding is on McNabb.
Did you just block out TO?
Mulli,
I've mentioned T.O. by name in my 2 of 3 posts so far in this thread. Do I need to say his name every time for it to count?
When? They haven't taken a big WR in the draft or in free agency since that tiny run with Owens. In eight freaking years. Trust me - it's our biggest gripe as a fanbase.
az1965
Love Games!
One of the main reason McNabb was so successful in the 3rd is because we went into the all-so-dear-and-lovely prevent crap defense with 3 men rush which has never worked and will never work with the rushing personnel we have.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Small and Johnson were already with the Eagles when McNabb was drafted but Thrash, Brown, Baskett and Owens were all brought in over the last 8 years.
Plus the Eagles drafted Brown and Jackson in the 2nd round, LJ in the 2nd, Stallworth was a 1st round pick of New Orleans before he got to PHI, Pinkston was a 2nd rounder, Freddie Mitchell was a 1st rounder and Charles Johnson was a 1st rounder in his 5th & 6th year when with the Eagles.
I don't disagree with the lack of success that these guys had but it is hard for me to agree that the Eagles have simply ignored the WR situation. McNabb always has a good running game and good defense so I would think that he should , if he was as good as advertised, be able to have some success with those 2nd tier receivers.
But receivers can't catch passes that are uncatchable. McNabb had 94 passes in 2008 that were either overthrown, underthrown or thrown wide according to cnnsi.com. In about the same amount of attempts, Peyton had 35. Rodgers had 34. Warner had 33. Cutler had 40. And those guys aren't throwing a majority of their passes so close to the line of scrimmage.
IAWarnerFan
Warnerphile, but a Cards fan!
Look at his stats! I don't care what situation he's in. With the numbers he's putting up he's probably destined for the HOF. He's got a bit of accuracy issues that's true, but he doesn't throw the Ints either. Incompletions are much more preferable than Ints. I made the mistake of thinking he was just another rushing QB until I looked at his actual stats.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
His stat's are a product of the WCO. Except that with his horrible accuracy he doesn't benefit from the inherently high completion pct. that most WCO QB's experience. His TD% is pretty anemic(4.5% career is tied for 73rd all-time) his passer rating this year was the same as Eli's, this year his completion % was 18th as was his ypa. I'm not sure which stat's you're impressed with.
I appreciate seeing names brought out for debate, but none of those guys were ever destinced to be the WR this team actually needs. Maybe Stallworth, but he was here one year and they let him walk. LJ was a lucky grab from a local college - and can't really count that since every team wants to draft a catching TE. That leaves all the rest - none of which have the backgound or physical frame to ever be the big, physical WR that the Eagles have needed all these years.
That's our main issue, though. You can have a team full or six #2 WRs and you won't have success. Owens was the perfect example of that. When he lined up he was double-covered. It makes the other WRs better. Surely you guys have seen how Fitz draws coverage and makes Breston better, etc.
No debate on his accuracy. He throws worm-burners. He throws behind guys - usually over the middle. But at the same time the WRs just aren't catching the iffy throws this season. The Cards game was about average. Whenever a ball hits a WR/TE in both hands, regardless of how poorly it was thrown for the route, it should be caught. Move the chains.
Your cnnsi stats are interesting. Does that track to % of attempts, too? Does it say if it counts balls that were thrown away to avoid a sack?
IAWarnerFan
Warnerphile, but a Cards fan!
Donovan McNabb
134 Games
85.9 QB Rating
2534 Completions
4303 Attempts
58.9 Comp Percent
29320 Yards
218.8 YPG
6.8 YPA
194 TDs
90 Ints
71 Fumbles
41 Fumbles Lost
Kurt Warner
110 Games
93.8 QB Rating
2327 Completions
3557 Attempts
65.4 Comp %
28591 Yards
259.9 YPG
8.0 YPA
182 TDs
114 Ints
89 Fumbles
40 Lost
134 Games
85.9 QB Rating
2534 Completions
4303 Attempts
58.9 Comp Percent
29320 Yards
218.8 YPG
6.8 YPA
194 TDs
90 Ints
71 Fumbles
41 Fumbles Lost
Kurt Warner
110 Games
93.8 QB Rating
2327 Completions
3557 Attempts
65.4 Comp %
28591 Yards
259.9 YPG
8.0 YPA
182 TDs
114 Ints
89 Fumbles
40 Lost
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Rats
Somanyfreaks,SofewCircus'
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HOF numbers for Kurt, Donovan not so much. After going back and watching the game, had Donovan been acurate the Cardinals would not be in the Super Bowl. On more than 7 occasions the receivers clearly beat the Cards Db's and could have had 3 Td's out of it except Donovan without a modicrum of pressure failed to deliver the ball. I think the critisism is justified. Guy is incredibly talented when he uses all of his weapons(legs) and keeps teams guessing. He wasn't last night. He missed alot.
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keep things "rolling"? They won 7 more games last year than they did this year and their offense went from the single greatest offense of all time to a decent offense, going from averaging 39 ppg to 25 ppg. That's a two TD difference solely because ONE guy isn't there.
I'd say it absolutely speaks to Brady's greatness that a year ago at this time people were wondering if the Pats were the greatest team OF ALL TIME and this year, they didn't even make the playoffs... with a MUCH easier schedule this year.
That has been the knock on McNabb forever though. In the big games he is just...off. I don't watch the eagles much but it seems to me McNabb likes to get kind of goofy and lose his game focus somewhere about, well opening kick off. Then he got it back for the third quarter but as soon as they went up by one it was back to the goofy smile and such. Warner was 110% game focus until the clock hit all zero's. I think that is where they differ.
Oh and what's up Dan!!
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
11-5 and likely the best team playing by week 17 is how I remember it. It's true they didn't make the playoffs but 11-5 is almost always good enough.
And let's not act like the offense was the same. Dillon was gone, Maroney was hurt and Faulk is 32 now. I think Stallworth's absence was pivotal as well. Bruschi's done at 35, Harrison missed most of the season and is probably done and the defense overall was so banged up that had to send a mortician to San Diego and dig up Junior Seau.
Neal missed 5 games, Kazcur missed a couple games and the o-line wasn't as good in '08 as it was in '07. And who's to say that Brady repeats what he did in '07? Look at the last QB who had a gonzo year. Manning put up 49 TD and a better passer rating than Brady did and Peyton's hasn't been close to those numbers ever since. Brady outperforms what Cassel did if he stays healthy but the Patriots won 5 out of their last 6 and scored 47+ in three of those games. Give Cassel a full training camp with the year of experience under his belt and he'll easily match what Brady's done each year of his career save one. I'm not taking away the one but flukes do happen and let's not forget that this a team that was caught cheating.
I don't know about a lot easier schedule for the Patriots in '08. I do know that their division opponents in '07 were two games worse than the Cardinals division opponents this year. They had a truly dominant year but let's not forget that the "greatest of all time" discussion evaporated when they couldn't finish the job. The '01 Rams were very similar. The '98 Vikings and many others. The juggernaut regular season Patriots were anything but dominant in the playoffs. Much like the Ravens and Eagles matchups from earlier in the year, New England got San Diego when they were down. LT was hurt and Rivers was hobbled and NE still managed just 21 points and we all remember how they couldn't even keep up with the Giants who only scored 17.
moklerman
Rise from the Ashes III
Yep, they have the best splits that I've seen from a free site.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/4650/passing_splits.html
% of attempts isn't tracked but 94/571 = 16%. (by comparison, Warner's was 33/598 5.5%).
It does split passes that were thrown away intentionally which in McNabb's case was 17. I didn't count those in any of the QB examples listed earlier.
Something else that was mentioned in relation to his receivers was drops. It shows that his receivers dropped 30 over the course of the year in '08. That sounds like a lot but using Warner as a comparison again(because most of you will likely be more familiar with him and since he is considered to have one of the top receiving corps in the NFL), the Cardinals had 24 drops in '08.
Manning had 29. Rogers had 32. Cutler had 34 and he has one of the biggest, meanest WR in football. I don't think McNabb's issues would necessarily go away if he had another great receiver. Owens is a popular argument in defense of the idea but by year two, that experiment had him just as erratic as ever. 68.5, 155.4, 84.2, 103.6, 64.7, 69.9, 71.1. And it's not like Owens had disappeared or become a non-entity. 7/112, 5/143 2TD, 9/80 1TD, 11/171 1TD, 5/50, 7/53 1TD, 3/154 1 TD.
IAWarnerFan
Warnerphile, but a Cards fan!
They mentioned he was all smiles heading into the 2nd half even though his team was down 24-6. Is that a good thing or part of his problem?
