Shelton

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by nidan
Why is this an example of cap mismangement ?

Which extra players are you refering to ?

Ken Lucas (CB) would have been a nice pickup when he was cut by the Seahawks - going after Chike a little harder would have been nice also.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Guys, guys, guys, GUYS! Shoosh for a second here and allow a voice of reason to prepare a scenario for you. What's going on right now is called bargaining/negotation/haggling, etc. Shelton and his agent know that they have some serious leverage on their side:

1 - Shelton plays LT which is the most important position on the o-line if you have a right-handed QB.
2 - Good offensive lines have played together for several seasons and this line has never played more than two consecutive games in it's current configuration. Starting over with a new LT would set the unit back two years.
3 - The looming Monday deadline is still four days away. A lot can happen in four days and if Shelton signs now, he may always wonder if he could have done better by waiting another 3.9 days.
4 - Shelton knows that the Cardinals and Rod Graves deperately want to rid themselves of the perception that they don't want to win and aren't willing to do the things that winning teams do.

The Cardinals know that they have some leverage on their side too:

1 - Plenty of cap space to be able to afford to extend Shelton's contract 3-5 years.
2 - The ability to franchise him during the off-season and keep him here regardless.
3 - The possibility that Shelton will get injured between now and the end of the season, thereby making his stock plummet in the free agent market.
4 - And to a lesser extent, some reasonable progress in re-signing current players and bringing in some good FAs makes the possibility that the Cardinals are within one to two seasons of being a contender.

Both sides are brandishing these facts like swords in an attempt to get the other side to break down. The mental picture I envision is Shelton and his agent on one side of the table and Graves and M. Bidwill on the other having a staring contest. They both have offers and counter-offers out there and they are probably some distance apart. Right now, the first party to blink loses. Come Monday, sweat will be pouring off of both their faces and it will become evident who needs this deal more. Personally, I think the Cardinals do, and they will do the wise thing to compromise as best they can (read: overpay a little to make up for past transgressions and inequities). That said, the chances of a deal happening before then is highly unlikely.

 

[SweetD]

To the Bothers

I am just saying that your knowledge of what will happen be hind closed doors can not even come close to what sskorp is "not saying" I would have trust what he is saying over what Graves or You say or don't say. Personal I don't really care to hear another person spewing BS be it negative or positive.

 

[pinnacle]

cheesebeef....I think someone like Ray may be valued higher by other teams because the "Cardinals factor" i.e. put him in the "right" situation and he will be better....but I cannot really disagree with you assessment of his performance....

My speculation...Skorps silence does not mean that he somehow gleamed from his conversation with Graves that LJ will probably not be signed by Monday...I would take the other view that perhaps graves thinks he can get a deal done and Skorp is messing with some of you by not responding.....but like any prediction - I could be way off base:...

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Ken Lucas (CB) would have been a nice pickup when he was cut by the Seahawks - going after Chike a little harder would have been nice also.

I think you still can go all the way back to Colvin and Holliday actually. It doesn't matter how it turned out but rather the sales job wasn't there. Fact is they didn't believe in the product so their toook their business elsewhere.

Graves could have knocked their socks off and didn't. He hoped for things that never materialized and made the hole a bit deeper. He did OK in the second tier of the FA market but top shelf is what makes teams significantly better.

Graves has a great shot at a good chunk of redemption if he can get Shelton prior to Monday. If he falls short, LT could very well be another gaping hole that needs filling.

 

[pinnacle]

regardless of what was said during the offseason regarding boston and the franchise tag....I think the Cardinals would use it on LJ. LJ is a team guy who gives alot of effort and is well liked by his teammates...I do not see us letting him walk for nothing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by pinnacle
cheesebeef....I think someone like Ray may be valued higher by other teams because the "Cardinals factor" i.e. put him in the "right" situation and he will be better....but I cannot really disagree with you assessment of his performance....

My speculation...Skorps silence does not mean that he somehow gleamed from his conversation with Graves that LJ will probably not be signed by Monday...I would take the other view that perhaps graves thinks he can get a deal done and Skorp is messing with some of you by not responding.....but like any prediction - I could be way off base:...

On your first point - you could be right - I can agree with what you're saying there.

On point two - Like my buddy Lightning Rod likes to do - I HOPE you're right!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by AZCB34

Graves has a great shot at a good chunk of redemption if he can get Shelton prior to Monday. If he falls short, LT could very well be another gaping hole that needs filling.

I agree 100%. This is just another of Graves big tests - so far I haven't been happy with previous scores - but people do improve - I hope he makes my sense of history dissappear because that history depresses me.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Re: To the Bothers

Originally posted by SweetD
I am just saying that your knowledge of what will happen be hind closed doors can not even come close to what sskorp is "not saying" I would have trust what he is saying over what Graves or You say or don't say. Personal I don't really care to hear another person spewing BS be it negative or positive.

i understand that skorp is privy to more info. and i appreciate that. however, we also have to take into consideration that he's just privy to graves' and the cardinals' side of the story. he has no inside info from lj or lj's agent. so i take this reporting with a grain of salt.

 

[pinnacle]

regarding some other guys...I get the impression that we are not going to get a deal done with Barrett...I have no idea why - I am pretty sure he is an unrestricted free agent. Granted..he is not a superstar - but with the following factors:

1. huge question mark besides Duane Starks name
2. our needs at other areas
3. The difficulty in finding above average corners in free agency.
4. and that Barrett seems to learning and improving...

Given the above..I would think we would be interested in getting a deal done..even if barrett is a backup next season. If we lose barrett - we will probably have to take a corner with the 1st round pick (in part because I doubt the organization feels they can count on starks) . All the more reason we franchise LJ if a deal is not done..I think...

 

[Sandan]

Re: Re: To the Bothers

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
i understand that skorp is privy to more info. and i appreciate that. however, we also have to take into consideration that he's just privy to graves' and the cardinals' side of the story. he has no inside info from lj or lj's agent. so i take this reporting with a grain of salt.

I think I can say you misguided here. So far we have had nothing but honest and straigtforward comments from the Cards folks.

I have not noticed spin yet and after manys years in corporate america at many levels I think I would smell some spin if I heard it.

 

[Skkorpion]

This all started with a Darren Urban article and some of you started bashing on Graves and Bidwill right away.

On my part, I have told you nothing Darren didn't tell you and frankly, I know a lot less than many of you assume. I stepped in because I get tired of the knee-jerk bashing.

Also, "reading between the lines" of my posts is a mistake. At heart, I am a pessimist and I have no clue whether LJ wants to stay here or not. Honestly.

Patience.

I am a little disappointed that I didn't get to post the story about the Monday deadline but my guess is Darren Urban got that from non-Cards sources.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

all of this is "whatever."

the proof's in the pudding.

come monday we'll know if we did something good, or let another opportunity slip away, regardless of the reasons.

here's hoping we win this weekend and start an unexpected rash of victories. looking forward to meeting everyone.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by red desert
I beg to differ. There is a whole hell of a lot that the Cards can do to change that -- it's called money, and lots of it.

Thats an asinine statement and couldnt be the farthest from the truth. Players dont choose based on money and money alone. That was clearly shown when Colvin accepted 3 million less in guaranteed to money to sign with the Pats over us!

Money is not all that matters to many players. Most Yes but not all!

Ouchie,

In relation to your post, yes I agree it is Graves job to sell the team on the player. That is no doubt. But sometimes no matter what your sales pitch there are guys who just arent goingto want to be here for whatever reason. Those are things beyond his control. People fail to realize that all to often!

 

[red desert]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
and just what accusation is that? i've not accused anyone of anything other than graves having fielded an atrocious team. and right, the 2-5 record is proving me right in said accusation!

you might want to poo-poo us darksiders, but we've been 100% right. we said we wouldn't get the needed defensive line help in free agency and we didn't. we said we wouldn't sign a veteran wr to help the kiddies and we didn't. we said graves would screw up the draft, and, to my way of thinking, passing on lefty, trading down to just miss the dline we wanted, and snatching bryant and pace, both of whom look like projects, at first round prices, and moving down in the 2nd and losing a 4th rounder to boot seems like a screw up. we said the team wouldn't win more than 5 games, and guess what, that's what they're on pace for right now. hmm, seems like we were much more educated than we're given credit for, doesn't it?

up 'til now i haven't been putting it in the koolaider's face that we were right and they were wrong. but when you just keep lambasting us, well, the dam's broke gang! y'all can blame it on SweetD, 'cuz now you're gonna get it at every turn.

WE ARE RIGHT. YOU ARE WRONG. WE KNOW THIS TEAM BETTER THAN YOU. WE AREN'T PESSIMISTS, WE'RE REALISTS. AND THE TEAM IS PROVING THAT EVERY STEP OF THE FRIGGIN' WAY!

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEcomebackatmewhenyouhaveevidencethatactuallysupportsyourinaneargumentsEEEEEEEEEE!

I'm right there with you.

 

[Rats]

Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by nidan
Why is this an example of cap mismangement ?

Which extra players are you refering to ?

I refuse to be drawn into that debate with you again..nidan....find another huckleberry You cannot defend 12mil under the cap ...no matter how hard you try. That much left is cap mismangement in reverse of others who get in cap hell by spending to much. You know and everyone else knows it. And there are several players that were FA that are contributing to other teams that could have made a differance here. Especially along the Dline. I repeat they could have made a differance here.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by Shane H
Thats an asinine statement and couldnt be the farthest from the truth. Players dont choose based on money and money alone. That was clearly shown when Colvin accepted 3 million less in guaranteed to money to sign with the Pats over us!

Money is not all that matters to many players. Most Yes but not all!

Ouchie,

In relation to your post, yes I agree it is Graves job to sell the team on the player. That is no doubt. But sometimes no matter what your sales pitch there are guys who just arent goingto want to be here for whatever reason. Those are things beyond his control. People fail to realize that all to often!

i do realize that. but there are far too many (important) fish that have gotten away from graves thus far and from the cards, in general, in the past. we need a fisherman who can bring home the catch of the day, and thus far, it ain't graves.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
i do realize that. but there are far too many (important) fish that have gotten away from graves thus far and from the cards, in general, in the past. we need a fisherman who can bring home the catch of the day, and thus far, it ain't graves.

I cant say I necessarily agree. No we didnt get Colvin or Holliday big dissapointments to me for sure. But even though not huge pick ups we still none the less got the best FA QB available. We landed the best Safety and FB available. We added some depth as well at LB and OL. Huge draw? No! but definately upgrades over what we had last year IMO! For whatever reason(coaching IMO) it hasent come together.

But you guys act like the guy has been a complete stiff in the front office and that just isnt true! His draft is looking up and extensions have been occuring under him. All signs of change. As well as the timely signing of two 1st rounders!

You guys have to admit that 2 or 3 years ago all of the things we see now never would have happened. Its happening under Graves!

It just would be nice to hear you guys acknowledge some good around here!

Heck three years ago it would have been a foregone conclusion that LJ would have just been tagged and negotiations wouldnt have begun till two monthe prior to training camp!

Change is in the air!

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by Shane H
Thats an asinine statement and couldnt be the farthest from the truth. Players dont choose based on money and money alone. That was clearly shown when Colvin accepted 3 million less in guaranteed to money to sign with the Pats over us!

Money is not all that matters to many players. Most Yes but not all!

Ouchie,

In relation to your post, yes I agree it is Graves job to sell the team on the player. That is no doubt. But sometimes no matter what your sales pitch there are guys who just arent goingto want to be here for whatever reason. Those are things beyond his control. People fail to realize that all to often!

So then, if LJ does sign for a heck of a lot of money, that would mean that money is the most important factor with him, correct? Or is he doing it because he loves they way Bidwill runs this organization?

Bt the way, what I believe to be asinine is the statement that the Colvin situation is a reflection of NFL players. Nothing could be further from the truth, or more asinine, IMO.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by red desert
So then, if LJ does sign for a heck of a lot of money, that would mean that money is the most important factor with him, correct? Or is he doing it because he loves they way Bidwill runs this organization?

Bt the way, what I believe to be asinine is the statement that the Colvin situation is a reflection of NFL players. Nothing could be further from the truth, or more asinine, IMO.

No your assertion that players will sign if you just throw gobs of money is whats laughable. It has been proven wrong more than once. I agree its not the norm but it happens and you just saying money is the cure all is plain and simply wrong!

Oh and no if LJ signs a huge contract(which he will) no matter who its with does not say money was the deciding factor. It says that hes an above average LT in the NFL which is a position that commands lots of money regardless of his demands!

Heck the starting offer from a team would be considered a huge sum based on the average LT salary in the NFL!

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by AZCB34
Graves has a great shot at a good chunk of redemption if he can get Shelton prior to Monday. If he falls short, LT could very well be another gaping hole that needs filling.

How's Graves redeeming himself when he's doing what any other GM would do by keeping his best players,if he get it's done.I know you have to start somewhere but being happy that we actually keep one of our 1st round draft choices shows what a sad state this front office is.And Skorp,i didn't read the entire thread,but Graves giving you inside info does not make him a better GM.He's still responsible for the outcome no matter if takes two to tango,or not.If he let's Shelton go,it will be just another in a long line of Cardinal blunders.Hopefully he gets it done along with Barrett and Wilson.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by Shane H
I cant say I necessarily agree. No we didnt get Colvin or Holliday big dissapointments to me for sure. But even though not huge pick ups we still none the less got the best FA QB available. We landed the best Safety and FB available. We added some depth as well at LB and OL. Huge draw? No! but definately upgrades over what we had last year IMO! For whatever reason(coaching IMO) it hasent come together.

But you guys act like the guy has been a complete stiff in the front office and that just isnt true! His draft is looking up and extensions have been occuring under him. All signs of change. As well as the timely signing of two 1st rounders!

You guys have to admit that 2 or 3 years ago all of the things we see now never would have happened. Its happening under Graves!

It just would be nice to hear you guys acknowledge some good around here!

Heck three years ago it would have been a foregone conclusion that LJ would have just been tagged and negotiations wouldnt have begun till two monthe prior to training camp!

Change is in the air!

i'll acknowledge that there has been change. and the dex/hodgins signings were good ones. but NONE of the signings have made the team any better, have they? as for qb - they might have gotten the best, but even THAT was accidental as they preferred kordell (scary in and of itself - no?). so they didn't shore up the greatest needs (d-line or wr) and missed on the qb they really wanted, and misjudged the draft. seems like business as usual to me. the resignings are good signs, now if they can only do it right. i'm not getting into the resigning the punter argument again, thompson is no world-beater, we resigned ronnie mac so he can sit the bench next year, shipp was a good signing.

what, do you want me to beat my chest with the pride at the 2-5 mockery graves has put forth on the field this year? c'mon . . .

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
i'll acknowledge that there has been change. and the dex/hodgins signings were good ones. but NONE of the signings have made the team any better, have they? as for qb - they might have gotten the best, but even THAT was accidental as they preferred kordell (scary in and of itself - no?). so they didn't shore up the greatest needs (d-line or wr) and missed on the qb they really wanted, and misjudged the draft. seems like business as usual to me. the resignings are good signs, now if they can only do it right. i'm not getting into the resigning the punter argument again, thompson is no world-beater, we resigned ronnie mac so he can sit the bench next year, shipp was a good signing.

what, do you want me to beat my chest with the pride at the 2-5 mockery graves has put forth on the field this year? c'mon . . .

No Im not saying be proud of our record or the way the team has performed.

I certainly am not proud of it! Trust me like an idiot I actually lay awake at night thinking about this crap. How dumb is that?

But the bottom line is that even through all of the muck I see postive things happening. I see change occuring! That is what gives me a glimmer of hope.

Finally I realize that Graves cant take near all the blame working with a stacked deck that is Bill Bidwill!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by Shane H
No Im not saying be proud of our record or the way the team has performed.

I certainly am not proud of it! Trust me like an idiot I actually lay awake at night thinking about this crap. How dumb is that?

But the bottom line is that even through all of the muck I see postive things happening. I see change occuring! That is what gives me a glimmer of hope.

Finally I realize that Graves cant take near all the blame working with a stacked deck that is Bill Bidwill!

amazingly, i lay awake too. sux.

as for the last comment, yeah, i understand that. but as bidwill's pigeon, he gets to take as much as the blame as bidwill. really, i'm not meaning to pin it all on graves, my condemnation is really directed at the entire cardinals organization (jim o and dave pasch, and that incredibly beautiful and talented chrissy mauck excluded).

 

[MadCardDisease]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Shelton

Originally posted by Cbus cardsfan
How's Graves redeeming himself when he's doing what any other GM would do by keeping his best players,if he get it's done.I know you have to start somewhere but being happy that we actually keep one of our 1st round draft choices shows what a sad state this front office is.And Skorp,i didn't read the entire thread,but Graves giving you inside info does not make him a better GM.He's still responsible for the outcome no matter if takes two to tango,or not.If he let's Shelton go,it will be just another in a long line of Cardinal blunders.Hopefully he gets it done along with Barrett and Wilson.

I don't agree. Lets look at Martay Jenkins for example. He was asking for clearly WAY more than he was worth. obviously the Cardinals needed help at WR but not at the price that Martay wanted. He was no where near worthy of what he was asking for. So they made the right decision an let Martay go and try to get his Millions.

The same can be said about David Boston. The Cardinals knew about the "Real" David Boston that we the fans never heard about. So they were smart in not wanting to garentee him a ton of money.

It's easy to sit back and say that Graves should have done this or Graves should have done that. However we don't know half of what is going on behind closed doors. We don't know what Shelton, Barrett or Wilson are asking for.

We do know that Graves signed Thompson and Player to extensions and both deals seemed fair to both parties. To me that says a lot about Graves and how fair his deals are.