PFT on Kliff

[Chopper0080]

He was exceptional his whole time here. He went 7-8-1 with Blaine Gabbert starting a ton of games.

Agreed. Bruce Arians was another in a long line of good things the Cardinals managed to mess up.

 

[Chopper0080]

You're...wait, let's get this straight...you're saying KYLER was the reason we didn't make the playoffs? HE'S the reason to blame for the bad play calling, the turtling at the end of games, the lack of discipline, the mismanagement of the defense? That stuff doesn't fall on the head coach?

Nuance schmuance. You literally just defended KK and his bungling of the head coaching gig by throwing KM under the bus.

I feel it is 100% ok to acknowledge that Kyler's inexperience and learning have limited what this offense can do. I can't say how much, but it has. To be fair to Kyler, this is normal for a young and inexperienced QB. He is just not prepared to recognize how he needs to adjust his game to win each unique game. He also doesn't have enough experience at reading high level defenses to adjust into or out of the right plays. Those things come with time.

 

[QuebecCard]

How many on this board were clamoring for Arians' to stay as opposed to those that believed it was time for a change?

 

[Chopper0080]

How many on this board were clamoring for Arians' to stay as opposed to those that believed it was time for a change?

Likely those of us who thought he might be one of the best coaches in franchise history.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Wait there’s people who still defend Kliff?

 

[QuebecCard]

Likely those of us who thought he might be one of the best coaches in franchise history.

Bet that with the benefit of, shall we say, a readjusted memory that group has grown since his departure.

 

[Chopper0080]

Bet that with the benefit of, shall we say, a readjusted memory that group has grown since his departure.

May be. You don't know what you got until it is gone. My only complaint on Arians was his attachment to Amos Jones.

 

[JeffGollin]

I think BA is one of those coaches with a short shelf life coaching a team. Let's not pretend like he was exceptional his whole time here.

BA set the tone for the entire culture of the Cardinal and (later on TB football teams.

Two factors were at play - (1) setting the culture and (2) doing it right.

Can KK control the Cardinal culture? And can he "do it right?"

Jury's still out on Kliff. I still haven't forgiven him for some funky play calling and play design, but (partly due to a built-in bias against changing personnel) I'm willing to give him the opportunity to grow in his job.

The difference between KK and, say Wilkes, is like driving a car with a clear front windshield vs. replacing that windshield with a brick wall. (There was no road to victory under Wilkes. With KK, I still feel we've gotta chance vis a vis other coaching/FO options.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I feel it is 100% ok to acknowledge that Kyler's inexperience and learning have limited what this offense can do. I can't say how much, but it has. To be fair to Kyler, this is normal for a young and inexperienced QB. He is just not prepared to recognize how he needs to adjust his game to win each unique game. He also doesn't have enough experience at reading high level defenses to adjust into or out of the right plays. Those things come with time.

Yep. This is what the Darksiders in this thread are missing. When Kyler can't run, his limitations really hurt this team. If Kyler was better at just hitting mid range passes, this team likely wins 2-3 more games.

It's ridiculous that Kliff isn't getting at least some benefit of the doubt here. He absolutely HAS TO limit his offense because of Kylers deficiencies.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Lol, you've gone really in depth here Krang, the same silly stat which is completely irrelevant to the conversation about KK. (while addressing none of the obvious issues mentioned)

Keep finding that nuance though!

It's completely relevant. Passes 10-19 yards are the bread and butter of an NFL offense. I think you're under rating how much of a detriment to the offensive scheme that Kyler is right now. When he can run around, he's a huge threat. When he can't run, teams flood the short zones which takes away Kyler's ability to accurately complete short passes, stops the run more effectively, and gets more pressure. Kyler HAS TO get better at hitting these fairly easy completions, or any team will be able to stop him.

Kliff had to scheme around this and other massive personnel holes on offense, and he still produced at top 10 offense.

I'm excited about having what should be two competent slot receivers, Kirk and Moore, and another big outside receiver in Green. Hudson should shore up the middle so that teams can't get as much quick pressure up the middle this year.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You're...wait, let's get this straight...you're saying KYLER was the reason we didn't make the playoffs? HE'S the reason to blame for the bad play calling, the turtling at the end of games, the lack of discipline, the mismanagement of the defense? That stuff doesn't fall on the head coach?

Nuance schmuance. You literally just defended KK and his bungling of the head coaching gig by throwing KM under the bus.

I'm not throwing Kyler on the bus. It's acknowledging FACT. Kyler was amongst the worst passers in the league at throwing 10-19 yards, which is a high volume area to throw the ball.

 

[Stout]

I feel it is 100% ok to acknowledge that Kyler's inexperience and learning have limited what this offense can do. I can't say how much, but it has. To be fair to Kyler, this is normal for a young and inexperienced QB. He is just not prepared to recognize how he needs to adjust his game to win each unique game. He also doesn't have enough experience at reading high level defenses to adjust into or out of the right plays. Those things come with time.

Very well presented post and spot on. Doesn't absolve KK's absolute shambles of a HCing style/outcome with the stupid and silly mistakes he can't eliminate, but spot on.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It's completely relevant. Passes 10-19 yards are the bread and butter of an NFL offense. I think you're under rating how much of a detriment to the offensive scheme that Kyler is right now. When he can run around, he's a huge threat. When he can't run, teams flood the short zones which takes away Kyler's ability to accurately complete short passes, stops the run more effectively, and gets more pressure. Kyler HAS TO get better at hitting these fairly easy completions, or any team will be able to stop him.

Dude, you keep banging this stat, but continue to ignore that he DID get better, significantly better last year:

"in Murray’s defense he did improve drastically from ‘19 to ‘20 when his PFF grade was 53.4 and in ‘20 it went up to 75.5 throwing in the 10-19 yard range."

Keep ignoring all the evidence that Kliff is the problem though and blame Kyler!

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude, you keep banging this stat, but continue to ignore that he DID get better, significantly better last year:

"in Murray’s defense he did improve drastically from ‘19 to ‘20 when his PFF grade was 53.4 and in ‘20 it went up to 75.5 throwing in the 10-19 yard range."

Keep ignoring all the evidence that Kliff is the problem though and blame Kyler!

Or you can pull up his passer rating, interceptions, etc. throwing to these zones instead of lazily throwing out PFF rankings.

He may have gotten better, but he was still REALLY BAD.

10 of his 12 interceptions were to this area. Murray still threw too many picks overall and clearly, this area of the field is where he struggles.

You also post his PFF grade throwing to this zone without any context.....he was 27th ranked in the NFL throwing to the intermediate zones.

 

[Chopper0080]

Very well presented post and spot on. Doesn't absolve KK's absolute shambles of a HCing style/outcome with the stupid and silly mistakes he can't eliminate, but spot on.

I agree that it doesn't absolve Kliff but I do feel if Kliff has the ability to give this team an offensive advantage we likely haven't seen it yet because of Kyler's learning curve.

 

[Chopper0080]

Or you can pull up his passer rating, interceptions, etc. throwing to these zones instead of lazily throwing out PFF rankings.

He may have gotten better, but he was still REALLY BAD.

10 of his 12 interceptions were to this area. Murray still threw too many picks overall and clearly, this area of the field is where he struggles.

You also post his PFF grade throwing to this zone without any context.....he was 27th ranked in the NFL throwing to the intermediate zones.

Agreed. Better does not equal good.

 

[Chopper0080]

Dude, you keep banging this stat, but continue to ignore that he DID get better, significantly better last year:

"in Murray’s defense he did improve drastically from ‘19 to ‘20 when his PFF grade was 53.4 and in ‘20 it went up to 75.5 throwing in the 10-19 yard range."

Keep ignoring all the evidence that Kliff is the problem though and blame Kyler!

I would argue that citing ONLY Kliff or ONLY Keim or ONLY Kyler as the problem is probably a mistake.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I would argue that citing ONLY Kliff or ONLY Keim or ONLY Kyler as the problem is probably a mistake.

100%.

Keim is culpable because he is building an expensive team that won't be good for long because he can't replace expensive vets with cheap rookies consistently.

Kingsbury is culpable because of some of his game management mistakes.

Kyler is culpable because he isn't a complete passer yet and Kingsbury's offense can't open up with his shortcomings.

With all of these variables, the team still was a win away from a postseason berth.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I would argue that citing ONLY Kliff or ONLY Keim or ONLY Kyler as the problem is probably a mistake.

Fair, it's not ALL on any piece, but of the 3, I'm only confident Kyler will be in his current position 3 years from now.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Or you can pull up his passer rating, interceptions, etc. throwing to these zones instead of lazily throwing out PFF rankings.

He may have gotten better, but he was still REALLY BAD.

10 of his 12 interceptions were to this area. Murray still threw too many picks overall and clearly, this area of the field is where he struggles.

You also post his PFF grade throwing to this zone without any context.....he was 27th ranked in the NFL throwing to the intermediate zones.

You've made it very clear that you think Kyler is REALLY BAD in the intermediate areas - are you saying that KK isn't able to effectively run his offense bc Kyler is below average in intermediate areas? Is that really what's holding this offense back?

I just find it so strange to hone in on that one thing, as if it's the reason for our struggles on offense. It completely ignores the bubble screens, the poor route trees, the lack of motion, the penalties, all which can be directly linked to coaching.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You've made it very clear that you think Kyler is REALLY BAD in the intermediate areas - are you saying that KK isn't able to effectively run his offense bc Kyler is below average in intermediate areas? Is that really what's holding this offense back?

I just find it so strange to hone in on that one thing, as if it's the reason for our struggles on offense. It completely ignores the bubble screens, the poor route trees, the lack of motion, the penalties, all which can be directly linked to coaching.

Its not the only thing, no, but it's a pretty damn big thing. The Cardinals are HORRIBLE at throwing at a good chunk of the field because of Murray. If Murray was even average throwing to this zone, teams wouldn't be able to squat down on the shorter zones and thus bubble screens and shorter passes would be even more open. It's also one of the reasons that the Cardinals aren't running much mesh, which is pretty much a staple play of the air raid.

I'm one of Murray's biggest fans, so I'm not happy criticizing the kid at all. I think he will get better because he is such a driven kid.

Keim's misses on personnel are also having a big effect on the offense as well. The Cardinals pretty much didn't have a #2 receiver the past two seasons. Kirk should be a slot guy, and it's great he can finally move inside.

 

[Jetstream Green]

The teams are irrelevant. They were chosen at random.

The point is TTU didn't have bottom 5 defenses before. And they don't have a bottom 5 defense now (they were average last year). Yet were bottom 5 every year Kliff was there.

That's not a "TTU can't recruit players" issue. That's a "Kliff wasn't good at his job" issue.

Well, living in Texas I have yet to find one Texas Tech alumni who has as much angst towards his college coaching tenure as is found here. As a matter of fact, I have not met one person here which blames Kliff for Tech's shortcomings and many who have become Cardinal fans because of his hire. The overall consensus down here where I live is that Kliff is a scapegoat for a school that in reality cannot compete with top tier school legacies in his respective state. The main question you need to ask yourself is who was the DC for Tech then or then to push the envelop even farther... who have you talked across the 'Big Pond' who bleeds Texas Tech black and red which say he sucks

 

[Krangodnzr]

Fair, it's not ALL on any piece, but of the 3, I'm only confident Kyler will be in his current position 3 years from now.

What I don't think is fair is that I don't think some of you are considering how much Keim's personnel failures and Murray's passing shortfalls are affecting Kingsbury's offensive system.

A fair argument is that Kingsbury needs to find a way to overcome some of Murray's shortfalls, but I'm really at a loss when you ALSO consider the personnel issues that Keim has created.

 

[Jetstream Green]

What I don't think is fair is that I don't think some of you are considering how much Keim's personnel failures and Murray's passing shortfalls are affecting Kingsbury's offensive system.

A fair argument is that Kingsbury needs to find a way to overcome some of Murray's shortfalls, but I'm really at a loss when you ALSO consider the personnel issues that Keim has created.

My one gripe with Kyler in the draft was he did utilize the middle of the field. I had even posted a thread on why this is so and approached the scary conclusion which even Stout I belived mentioned that it might be because his height, which I think is a physical act preventing him from getting enough clearance to pass into the interior and not his sight. Kyler is so dynamic in other areas, that one still cannot dismiss him when finding a QB is so difficult. Kliff has one problem, that is game management. Buckybird lives down here in Texas and closer to Tech than me but I am closer under an hour away from where Kliff grew up, but he feels his game management skills are his main problem (correct me if I am wrong BB), which in a game of inches that in the pros might make him a bad coach. This whole defense blame crap falls on Vance Joseph if you have a gripe

 

[Krangodnzr]

My one gripe with Kyler in the draft was he did utilize the middle of the field. I had even posted a thread on why this is so and approached the scary conclusion which even Stout I belived mentioned that it might be because his height, which I think is a physical act preventing him from getting enough clearance to pass into the interior and not his sight. Kyler is so dynamic in other areas, that one still cannot dismiss him when finding a QB is so difficult. Kliff has one problem, that is game management. Buckybird lives down here in Texas and closer to Tech than me but I am closer under an hour away from where Kliff grew up, but he feels his game management skills are his main problem (correct me if I am wrong BB), which in a game of inches that in the pros might make him a bad coach. This whole defense blame crap falls on Vance Joseph if you have a gripe

What I see with Murray is his footwork is causing a lot of his issues. He needs to step up into the pocket....but the problem with this this is that he faced so much interior pressure last year. It's a pretty hard thing to step up right into Aaron Donald running right at you.