On Topic: Levi Brown Voided Year?

[kerouac9]

I was looking at the excellent Contract Details section of Levi Brown's Rotoworld page (Rotoworld's contract database is an excellent resource for us armchair GMs). Apparently he's due a little more than $5 million this year, but he's a free agent in 2012. Does anyone know if this is true?

I'm sure that a lot of fans will reply with "good riddance to bad garbage", but I'm a little surprised. For some reason I thought that Brown would have a monster contract number for 2012, but still be under contract. Did he reach a voidable incentive for playing time or something? That seems like a very low final-year figure for a Top 5 pick (look at Antrel Rolle's escalator for comparison).

At the very least, it looks like we'll be losing another first-round pick (and maybe two!) in the 2012 offseason. So that's going to help.

 

[TJ]

I know you're big on where a player was drafted, but the player should only be evaluated on his performance. Levi was a first rounder, but he plays like a 4th or 5th rounder. If you draft a lineman that high, he better dominate. Graves tried to sell us on how Brown was just as good as Joe Thomas (first heard on a 910am interview before the 2007 draft). Thomas has been to 4 pro bowls. Brown is lucky if he only has 4 penalties in two games!

Drafting Brown was a mistake. Period. "Good riddance to bad garbage."

As for contract...I don't know. I thought he had bonuses/escalators for accolades such as pro bowls, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Move him to LG and Pro-Bowls will follow; he is truly the reincarnation of Leonard Davis...

 

[Zeno]

Move him to LG and Pro-Bowls will follow; he is truly the reincarnation of Leonard Davis...

Rubbish. Leonard Davis was much stronger and meaner, he had the mentality to play OG, Brown has shown none of that. Levi Brown is not a mauler, he is probably an average NFL RT and that is about what we should expect from him.

 

[kerouac9]

It's not about draft position; it's about roster management. Want to know why the Cards were good in 2008 and 2009? Because we'd kept the best players from the Mac era (Hayes, Wilson, Wells, Boldin, and Hayes) and allowed the players from the Green era (Fitz, Dansby, Dockett, Lutui, Antonio Smith, Bertrand Berry, Chike Okeafor, Kurt Warner, etc.) to make plays. Very few Whis players had any impact in the playoff seasons.

Now we've let all but one of the Mac players leave (I count Hayes as an animate corpse at this point), have exiled pretty much all of the Green players (excepting Fitz and Dockett), and no one that Whis has brought in either through the draft or free agency has shown that they can do much in the league (Whis's best draft pick in DRC had his worst season as a pro last year and many here would be happy to see him dealt this offseason and replaced with Ike Taylor for some reason).

What is the core of drafted players on this team right now? Wilson, Fitz, Dockett, maybe Lutui, maybe Calais Campbell? You can't continue to let your draft picks leave season after season and expect to be competitive.

If you replace drafted players with free agents, it'll cost you twice as much. If you replace departed free agents with draftees, you'll be lucky to get two-thirds the production (as we saw from Daryl Washington this season). If Brown leaves, it prevents the team from getting better in other areas while placing a giant question mark at the post important position on the offensive line.

 

[Pariah]

I didn't want to lose Big. I didn't want to lose Shelton. I didn't want to lose Clement.

I don't care if we lose Brown, other than the fact that I'm sorry he didn't develop into the player that we needed him to be.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It's not about draft position; it's about roster management.

Exactly! Keep your good players, get rid of your crappy ones. I think we all know which category Levi fits in.

 

[kerouac9]

I didn't want to lose Big. I didn't want to lose Shelton. I didn't want to lose Clement.

I don't care if we lose Brown, other than the fact that I'm sorry he didn't develop into the player that we needed him to be.

I think that Levi Brown is about as good as L.J. Shelton is/was. It's unfortunate that we spent the 5th overall pick in the 2007 draft on a guy who was about as good as 21st overall pick in the 1999 draft, but that's the way things stand.

Exactly! Keep your good players, get rid of your crappy ones. I think we all know which category Levi fits in.

But it's not a binary issue; players exist on a spectrum from All-Pro to camp fodder.

It's amazing that people think that anyone that we can bring in through free agency or the draft is always better than what we have. Despite the constant reminders to the contrary (Daryl Washington for Karlos Dansby, Alan Faneca for Reggie Wells, Joey Porter for Bertrand Berry, Bryant McFadden for Rod Hood, Derek Anderson for #7).

Next year, we can get better at QB by drafting one in the first round to compete with whomever we have, or we can not get better at QB (or OLB, or SILB, or TE, or whatever) because we have to draft a left tackle because we're starting over at the position from scratch.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I wonder if this may precipitate picking up a LT in FA? There are quality candidates out there: Gaither and Jammal Brown. As much as we need help at other positions, we do have young candidates to step in and start soon. OLB we have OBS and Acho. ILB we have Washington and Sturdivant. QB (GULP) we have John Skelton. LT? No one. The same can be said for OG as well.

I agree with your general premise Kerouac, that letting players walk or not having players on hand to replace the veterans is killing this team. I know we disagree on who to blame, but regardless I think what we saw last year was a failure to address the depth on the team over the years.

We do have a nice young corps waiting at a lot of positions.
QB: Skelton
RB: Williams, Wells, Hightower, LSH
WR: Roberts, Doucet (maybe), Williams, Sampson (maybe), Komar
TE: Dray, Housler
OL: Keith, Sendlein (yikes not much youth here)
DL: Campbell, Williams, Jones (maybe), Iwebema (maybe), Branch
LB: OBS, Acho, Sturdivant, Washington (all maybes, but all young)
CB: DRC, Peterson, Adams, Toler, Jefferson (maybe) (possibly the best group since the 70s)
S: Rashad Johnson (yikes not much here)

That's a much younger roster than when Whis took over and it's capable of being pretty good in a few years if a good percentage of them develop into reliable starters and a few become stars. I think Williams, Roberts, Keith, and Peterson will become pretty good players (borderline Probowlers). I read recently from Matt Williamson on ESPN that he sees Williams as a boom or bust type that if he develops will be an All Pro player.

Bottomline though from looking at my list, the 3 spots we need young depth at is OL (across the board), QB, and Safety. Adding a Quality, young veteran OL should be a priority and if you can get a LT, then shifting Brown to guard (where he can compete with Hadnot and Lutui) makes the team stronger. I'm an advocate of Brandon Keith; he sealed off VERY well in the run game and most his problems in pass protection were mental, and therefore fixable. Another point Matt Williamson made when talking about the Cardinals OL, is that the talent is subpar, but they are VERY well coached. I found that interesting since most this board this Grimm is terrible, but an NFL scout thought the issue was talent on the team. No team has spent less draft capital on the OL than the Cardinals since we drafted Levi Brown.

 

[az jam]

I'm not questioning what you read on Rotoworld, I'm just surprised. I could swear that I saw somewhere that Levi was not going to be a free agent in 2012 but have a monstrous size contract. Starting OTs are not that easy to replace.

 

[Cards Czar]

Levi Brown signed in 08 to a five year deal worth 42 million. 18 million guarenteed

 

[Indiana Hoosier]

I still have nightmares over this pick. Peterson (OH MY GOSH). Well time for bed, "same old same old"!

 

[kerouac9]

I wonder if this may precipitate picking up a LT in FA? There are quality candidates out there: Gaither and Jammal Brown. As much as we need help at other positions, we do have young candidates to step in and start soon. OLB we have OBS and Acho. ILB we have Washington and Sturdivant. QB (GULP) we have John Skelton. LT? No one. The same can be said for OG as well.

I agree with your general premise Kerouac, that letting players walk or not having players on hand to replace the veterans is killing this team. I know we disagree on who to blame, but regardless I think what we saw last year was a failure to address the depth on the team over the years.

We do have a nice young corps waiting at a lot of positions.
QB: Skelton
RB: Williams, Wells, Hightower, LSH
WR: Roberts, Doucet (maybe), Williams, Sampson (maybe), Komar
TE: Dray, Housler
OL: Keith, Sendlein (yikes not much youth here)
DL: Campbell, Williams, Jones (maybe), Iwebema (maybe), Branch
LB: OBS, Acho, Sturdivant, Washington (all maybes, but all young)
CB: DRC, Peterson, Adams, Toler, Jefferson (maybe) (possibly the best group since the 70s)
S: Rashad Johnson (yikes not much here)

That's a much younger roster than when Whis took over and it's capable of being pretty good in a few years if a good percentage of them develop into reliable starters and a few become stars. I think Williams, Roberts, Keith, and Peterson will become pretty good players (borderline Probowlers). I read recently from Matt Williamson on ESPN that he sees Williams as a boom or bust type that if he develops will be an All Pro player.

Bottomline though from looking at my list, the 3 spots we need young depth at is OL (across the board), QB, and Safety. Adding a Quality, young veteran OL should be a priority and if you can get a LT, then shifting Brown to guard (where he can compete with Hadnot and Lutui) makes the team stronger. I'm an advocate of Brandon Keith; he sealed off VERY well in the run game and most his problems in pass protection were mental, and therefore fixable. Another point Matt Williamson made when talking about the Cardinals OL, is that the talent is subpar, but they are VERY well coached. I found that interesting since most this board this Grimm is terrible, but an NFL scout thought the issue was talent on the team. No team has spent less draft capital on the OL than the Cardinals since we drafted Levi Brown.

Yeah... I'm pretty much with you. I'm not sure that we're going to make a huge investment in a guy at OT and wave the white flag on Levi Brown (essentially). I disagree with the idea that Brown can be a good guard if only because he's not nasty (at all--his attitude is far closer to L.J. Shelton's than it is Leonard Davis's) or physical.

I like Brandon Keith along with you. Hopefully he comes back strong from the hamstring(?) injury, because he was a monster at RT and could be a good guard if he can't hang with speed rushers on the outside.

If you take away Calais Campbell from the DL (contract year) and Iwebema (wasn't tendered as an RFA), then that unit doesn't look as deep. Same with ILB, where I think that depending on Sturdivant is like depending on Lance Mitchell to become a player. At least he's good depth and special teams. Mike Adams wasn't tendered as an RFA, either. Branch is also without a contract, but at least he was tendered.

I'm not high on the WRs as you are; it's a little early to think that Stephen Williams or Sampson will even make the roster, much less contribute anything. But one of those guys may be depended upon playing the #2 role in 3WR sets. Max Komar stinks.

This team is in MUCH worse shape than the one that Whis inherited following Denny, and Graves and Whis have done little to secure the long-term future of the team:

QB - Leinart (24)
RB - Arrington (24)
WR - Fitz (24), Boldin (27), Bryant Johnson (26)
TE - Leonard Pope (24)
OL - Wells (27), Deuce Lutui (24), Elton Brown (25)

DL - Antonio Smith (26), Gabe Watson (24), Dockett (26)
LB - Calvin Pace (27), Gerald Hayes (27), Karlos Dansby (26), Daryl Blackstock (24). Brandon Johnson (24)
CB - Rod Hood (26), Eric Green (25), Antrel Rolle (25)
S - Aaron Francisco (24), Matt Ware (25)

It's frustrating that we've let a lot of players age out of the NFL and invested in other aging veterans instead of developing the youth on the roster that we already had. It's easy to say that all these depth players were scrubs, but they've gone on to have productive careers as special teamers and depth players around the NFL with other teams while we're paying top dollar for Paris Lenon.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I know you're big on where a player was drafted, but the player should only be evaluated on his performance. Levi was a first rounder, but he plays like a 4th or 5th rounder. If you draft a lineman that high, he better dominate. Graves tried to sell us on how Brown was just as good as Joe Thomas (first heard on a 910am interview before the 2007 draft). Thomas has been to 4 pro bowls. Brown is lucky if he only has 4 penalties in two games!

Drafting Brown was a mistake. Period. "Good riddance to bad garbage."

As for contract...I don't know. I thought he had bonuses/escalators for accolades such as pro bowls, but I'm not 100% sure.

I didn't want to lose Big. I didn't want to lose Shelton. I didn't want to lose Clement.

I don't care if we lose Brown, other than the fact that I'm sorry he didn't develop into the player that we needed him to be.

I agree with these posts. Every team is going make mistakes in the draft K9. You only compund the mistake by giving them MORE money. Plus it sets a horrible precendent among the players.

"Wait Levi gets reupped for being below mediocre but I can't get paid?"

What your really trying to say (I think) is that its WHO they get to replace Levi. Not whether he should be let go.

I think we would both agree if its a downgrade, they needed to set up a better contigency plan and letting him walk maybe a mistake. You also need to allow for stop gaps to the solutions until the right player is obtained as Patrick Peterson > Rod Hood and ANYONE THEY GET for 2011 > #7 > Derek Anderson

However I am an optmist and will hope they bring in someone much better at about 1/3 the cost right away. Jammal Brown and Gaither need to be FA focus IMHO.

 

[AsUdUdE]

The 2012 draft is LOADED with LTs including absolute franchise LTs like Kalil (USC) and Martin (Stanford), as well as other quality linemen like Reiff (Iowa), Adams and Brewster (Ohio St.), Potter (Boise St) and Reynolds (BYU).

Any one of those woujld be an upgrade, if not significant upgrade to the turnstile Brown is...

 

[ASUCHRIS]

But it's not a binary issue; players exist on a spectrum from All-Pro to camp fodder.

Certainly, as I view Levi as a below average starter, (as most metrics show), I think replacing him is much easier than replacing a Karlos Dansby. Hell, I don't see much of a downgrade from Jeremy Bridges to Levi. Ultimately, I'd love to see the LT position upgraded.

It's amazing that people think that anyone that we can bring in through free agency or the draft is always better than what we have. Despite the constant reminders to the contrary (Daryl Washington for Karlos Dansby, Alan Faneca for Reggie Wells, Joey Porter for Bertrand Berry, Bryant McFadden for Rod Hood, Derek Anderson for #7).

I really hope nobody believed that Washington was going to be anywhere near Dansby. Faneca was not spectacular but just as competent as wells. Porter was a horrible mistake, and I'd be quite surprised to see him back. Ideally, he would have been used like Bert, as a situational pass rusher, but using him as an every down player was a disaster. Agree with you on McFadden, I thought Hood was better. QB, well, don't want to touch that one.

All in all, I agree with your general point, if you're going to replace a middling starter, you better be making a significant upgrade, because otherwise continuity will make a marginally less talented player more valuable because of their knowledge of a system.

 

[kerouac9]

The 2012 draft is LOADED with LTs including absolute franchise LTs like Kalil (USC) and Martin (Stanford), as well as other quality linemen like Reiff (Iowa), Adams and Brewster (Ohio St.), Potter (Boise St) and Reynolds (BYU).

Any one of those woujld be an upgrade, if not significant upgrade to the turnstile Brown is...

Well, it's going to be a good thing that this coaching staff couldn't develop #7 into a long-term solution and doesn't like John Skelton, because we're going to trade our 2012 first-round pick (plus?) for Kevin Kolb, which means we'll get a third-tier OT prospect in the second round of the 2012 draft.

Looking forward to protecting our investment in Kevin Kolb by continuing to surround him with garbage.

 

[kerouac9]

Certainly, as I view Levi as a below average starter, (as most metrics show), I think replacing him is much easier than replacing a Karlos Dansby. Hell, I don't see much of a downgrade from Jeremy Bridges to Levi. Ultimately, I'd love to see the LT position upgraded.

I agree with you, but I'd feel better if there were a single example of this front office being able to get a starter on the open market or the draft that was a first-year upgrade over the player we'd let leave in free agency.

The closest you can come is Calais Campbell's second year replacing Antonio Smith, although Campbell according to people on this board is not good and easily replaced next offseason.

 

[SECTION 11]

I don't care what anyone says, Levi Brown has been solid. Not only that, he should get resigned. Yep. Bring it

 

[joeshmo]

According the rotoworld page of Levi Brown, Levi was ranked the worst Tackle in the NFL in 2010 by profootballfocus.

Just sayin.

 

[Krangodnzr]

According the rotoworld page of Levi Brown, Levi was ranked the worst Tackle in the NFL in 2010 by profootballfocus.

Just sayin.

Believeable, but it's hard to believe he was worse than Matt Light and his 10 or 11 sacks given up.

IMO it would be a coup to sign Jammal Brown or Jared Gaither. Gaither especially he's given up 9 sacks in his CAREER, playing in the AFC North. Levi gave up like 7 sacks last season alone.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah... I'm pretty much with you. I'm not sure that we're going to make a huge investment in a guy at OT and wave the white flag on Levi Brown (essentially). I disagree with the idea that Brown can be a good guard if only because he's not nasty (at all--his attitude is far closer to L.J. Shelton's than it is Leonard Davis's) or physical.

Yeah IMO it's obvious we whiffed on Levi Brown, I think we shouldn't compound the problem by not addressing it now. IMO we should bring in a QB (Kolb or if the cost is too high Orton), a LT, guard depth, and an ILB. Resign our guys and call it complete. Kolb, Jared Gaither, and a midtier thumper at ILB and resigning all the important free agents would almost assure an NFC West title again.

I like Brandon Keith along with you. Hopefully he comes back strong from the hamstring(?) injury, because he was a monster at RT and could be a good guard if he can't hang with speed rushers on the outside.

The numbers don't lie; the Cardinals were a very good running team off RT. Part of that was Keith early in the year. He had some absolutely monstrous seal off blocks early in the year. I agree, if he continues to make mental mistakes, then move him to G and he'll be a force there. IMO he could be our best lineman by the end of the year if he comes back strong from his injury.

If you take away Calais Campbell from the DL (contract year) and Iwebema (wasn't tendered as an RFA), then that unit doesn't look as deep. Same with ILB, where I think that depending on Sturdivant is like depending on Lance Mitchell to become a player. At least he's good depth and special teams. Mike Adams wasn't tendered as an RFA, either. Branch is also without a contract, but at least he was tendered.

I wasn't crazy about not tendering Iwebema, but I think his injury concerns are legit and the team is prepared to move on. Branch and a combination of Jones/street FA should easily replace him. He wasn't missed that much last season and he's one of those bubble guys that give you some PT, but then you cut at the drop of a hat.

I like Sturdivant quite a bit at ILB; IMO he's a much better prospect than Mitchell (post-injury) and he only fell because of his drug arrest. He should stick, he's vastly superior to Reggie Walker because he's actually faster than O-lineman (Walker is not).

Without Peterson on the roster, I wouldn't like losing Adams, but now it's a numbers game and the fourth corner job is normally a young guy the team wants to develop. While Adams has become a competent player, he has his limitations and those limitations are quite severe. Jefferson or Marshay Green have more upside, so cutting Adams loose won't hurt in the long run.

I'm not high on the WRs as you are; it's a little early to think that Stephen Williams or Sampson will even make the roster, much less contribute anything. But one of those guys may be depended upon playing the #2 role in 3WR sets. Max Komar stinks.

I don't think it's a great situation, but we have a nice mixture of vets (Fitz and Breaston) and some promising youth for the future. If Fitz is locked up soon, we'll be set for the next few years as long as we continue to till up the bottom of the WR depth chart.

This team is in MUCH worse shape than the one that Whis inherited following Denny, and Graves and Whis have done little to secure the long-term future of the team:

QB - Leinart (24) (Skelton and likely Kolb, which would be younger than Warner and Leinart.)
RB - Arrington (24) (Williams, Wells, THT and LSH. Significantly better young depth.)

WR - Fitz (24), Boldin (27), Bryant Johnson (26) ( Roberts. Only legitimate young prospect, unless Doucet has a remarkable return to health.)

TE - Leonard Pope (24) (Dray and Housler. I won't allow that Pope is any good; he's terrible and is only a training cap away from likely being cut from KC.)

OL - Wells (27), Deuce Lutui (24), Elton Brown (25) (Keith; our OL is completely devoid of any other young talent.)

DL - Antonio Smith (26), Gabe Watson (24), Dockett (26) (Campbell and Dan Williams. Still have promising young depth.)

LB - Calvin Pace (27), Gerald Hayes (27), Karlos Dansby (26), Daryl Blackstock (24). Brandon Johnson (24) (Daryl Washington, Schofield, Sturdivant, and Acho. It's likely worse off, but there is some potential.)

CB - Rod Hood (26), Eric Green (25), Antrel Rolle (25) (Peterson, DRC, Toler, AJ Jefferson, and Marshay Green. Significantly better young players now.)

S - Aaron Francisco (24), Matt Ware (25) (Rashad Johnson. We need a good young safety prospect, but it isn't necessarily dire. Francisco and Ware were both scrubs. Johnson IMO has more upside right now.)

It's frustrating that we've let a lot of players age out of the NFL and invested in other aging veterans instead of developing the youth on the roster that we already had. It's easy to say that all these depth players were scrubs, but they've gone on to have productive careers as special teamers and depth players around the NFL with other teams while we're paying top dollar for Paris Lenon.

Let's not get histrionic here; Paris Lenon didn't get top dollar. He was paid according to what a contributing, veteran LB will get paid. He didn't get Dansby money or even half of that.

I disagree that were this very old roster that has no promise; at a few positions (RB, DL, and CB) we have more youth and it's very good youth. Dan Williams has the chance to be a star at NT, as does Ryan Williams at RB, Calais Campbell at DE, and Peterson/DRC at CB.

I think you're being a bit too unrealistic here; if you look at 90% of the NFL, the roster turnover we're seeing is a nearly year-to-year occurrence.
Not every draft is going to be good and not every first rounder is going to work out.

 

[Duckjake]

The closest you can come is Calais Campbell's second year replacing Antonio Smith, although Campbell according to people on this board is not good and easily replaced next offseason.

It really is hard to get excited about the Cards future when they've only been able to develop one superstar in the last 10 years. Every other player they've drafted has been mediocre or worse.

In addition they've only had one free agent become a superstar in the last 10 years, Kurt Warner.

Go look at the Steelers and Patriots and Colts and see how many of their draft picks are "name" players. Or their free agents like Wes Welker for instance.

When are we going to get guys like that? It really is frustrating to be a fan of a team whose talent evaluators and coaches appear to be totally clueless.

Contrary to what the Cardinal homers like to post I think we could do just as well letting the "clueless Monday Morning QBs" here on ASFN pick the players. I mean, how hard is it to coach a team to 5-11 and dead last in
almost every statistical category?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't care what anyone says, Levi Brown has been solid. Not only that, he should get resigned. Yep. Bring it

Even more praise for your boy Levi...

"Higher than you’d probably think given they’re a line that fields Levi Brown at left tackle. The big former first round pick gave up 70 total pressures on the year and finished with a pass blocking grade worse than any other player. He simply isn’t cut out to play left tackle. "

Give that man an extension!

 

[TJ]

I don't care what anyone says, Levi Brown has been solid. Not only that, he should get resigned. Yep. Bring it

Resign - yes

Re-sign - no