No one is looking at Matrix Reloaded for the philosophy.

Yuma

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Noone is looking at Matrix Reloaded for the philosophy.

I have read tons of posts on this movie and noone is really getting into the philosophical questions brought up in the movie. Most people I have read post or have talked to have said the movie would have rocked if there was less talking. I totally disagree. I got more out of the philosophy being discussed in the movie than the special effects. When you are in the movie the action rocks, but when you are away from the movie discussing it, the philosophy is really cool. My wife said she thought I watched a totally different movie than her when I started talking about the philosophies in it. I think if you take the time to think about the discussions and the questions being asked, it can apply to real life if you just change the word matrix in the discussions to life or reality. By using the Matrix story the Wachowskis are trying to get you to examine what your own life is really about. I think most of us go to an action flick and want to be mindlessly entertained. I will buy this movie when it comes out on DVD because it gives you more than just the action!

More on the philosophy here:

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/

On the site they have a matrix philosphy section. How many movies have that on their web site?

Tip: chose the lite version of the website if you have a low band connection. It is a lot faster to get from place to place that way.
 
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Chaplin

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There is a difference between too much and too little. If you want to expound your philosophy, write a book. Don't pound it down the throats of your audience, hoping they'll "get it" inbetween huge action scenes. Unfortunately for them, the action is why the people go see the movie. It's nice to get their view of the world, but it's not going to appeal to the mass populace--especially when they don't present it in a clear and concise manner.
 
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Yuma

Yuma

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What philosophy books have you ever read that explain a philosophical view in a clear and concise manner? :D I have yet to read one like that! :D Also, I didn't get the feeling they were pounding it down our throats like some religous sermon. Did you feel the movie was like a sermon? :( I think it was more than just an action flick, and that's good IMHO. I think it's wonderful when hollywood tries to convey more than just a good story. :D
 

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I agree that it is nice when movies reach you on some sort of profound level. (For me it was A.I. , but more on that another time). The problem I had with The Matrix Reloaded is that they hit you with all this techno-philosophy at the end, namely the Architect scene, and the audience has no foundation from which to draw on. It isn't like a philosophy class where the student can read beforehand, or ask questions of the professor and try to understand what is going on. I had no clue what Neo and the Architect were talking about. That is frustrating.
 

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For those who are interested, here is a text of the dialogue between Neo and the Architect. I found going over it once or twice to be quite helpful. I must admit to changing my suppositions after studying it. I no longer think Zion is also in the Matrix. Quite intriguing.



***********************START***********************************
The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been
waiting
for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your
consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you
will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your
first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is
also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced
equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the
eventuality
of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to
eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
While
it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus
not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the
others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What
others? How many? Answer me!'*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from
the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which
case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five
versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****.*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no
one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the
anomaly's
systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors:
You
can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the
Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally
perfect, it
was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its
monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now
as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I
redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the
varying
grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by
failure. I
have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required
a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of
perfection.
Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program,
initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche.
If I
am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution
whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as
they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a
near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously
fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory
systemic
anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself.
Ergo,
those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would
constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed.
Its
every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull****!*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses.
But,
rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have
become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the
Architects
room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the
source,
allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting
the
prime program. After which you will be required to select from the
matrix 23
individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply
with this
process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone
connected
to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will
ultimately
result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to
accept.
However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the
responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and
images of
people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five
predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a
contingent
affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of
your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others
experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more
specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth,
wherein the
fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as
both
beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the
source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the
matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the
problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we?
Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that
signal
the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason.
An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth:
she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion,
simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.
*******************END************************************
 

WaywardFan

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Originally posted by Chaplin
That conversation is beyond ridiculous for a movie.

What are you talking about?

I had a very similar convseration at work just the other day....
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by WaywardFan
What are you talking about?

I had a very similar convseration at work just the other day....

Hmm. You quoted that I said "FOR A MOVIE" not "FOR WORK". If you're having a nice casual conversation, it's fine, but it doesn't work for storytelling purposes in the space of 2 hours (or 2 1/2).
 

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There was a book on the first one called "The Matrix and Philosophy." It's in the philosophy section in Barnes & Noble (paperback red cover).

It's really good. It covers more than just the philosophical references.
 

Renz

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Originally posted by Chaplin
That conversation is beyond ridiculous for a movie.

I have to agree 100%. After the first paragraph my eyes were glazing over. Do the Wachowskis just want us all to know how smart they are? If I want to read that kind of stuff I will go to the library and check out Sartre.

I think it made more sense the first time. The more I read it the angrier I am getting that someone put that dialogue into a movie.
 

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