Kyler Murray vs Russell Wilson

[Cardsfan77]

You forgot the most important stat. Wins and losses. Murray is nowhere close to the level of Russell Wilson. Silly stat comparison.

Again, elite running game and D off the bat for RW, unfair judgement IMO

 

[Russ Smith]

I think the one thing Wilson does that we want Kyler to do even half as good is navigate and step up in the pocket. Kyler is faster and has a stronger arm but Wilson is so good in the pocket at stepping up and Kyler is still learning there.

 

[swagron]

This is ridiculous

You play to win the game...

 

[swagron]

Again, elite running game and D off the bat for RW, unfair judgement IMO

That statement can be said of many qb’s. Not saying that km isn’t good, but to even put him in the same sentence with Russell is ....ridiculous.

 

[Solar7]

The stat comparison also makes no sense because Kyler has to do a lot more throwing than Russ did on account of being behind and the nature of his offense.

Let's look at attempts.

RW: 253
KM: 360

100 more attempts to get to those numbers.

Rushing Attempts:

RW: 52
KM: 59

Sacks:

RW: 19
KM: 31

The point being, Kyler Murray has the ball in his hands a TON compared to RW, and when you start breaking out the averages, the numbers are not as impressive.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

We're going to see a passing of the torch pretty soon. Wilson to Murray, for the best QB in NFC West.

 

[AZ Native]

Cheese is just seeing both sides, as he always does. He saw the RW I did on MNF and thought like I did: I hope KM will be That player for us some day

 

[JosiahLee]

can we not with this comparison yet, please?

wilson right off the bat was showing the end of game "clutchness" that really helped push a 7-9 team to a 11-5 and won a playoff game and was within 31 seconds of taking that team to the NFC Title Game throwing for 385 yard 2TD/1 pick while rushing for 60 yards and a TD performance on the road against the 1 seed Falcons where he led them on a last minute drive to take a 28-27 lead with 31 seconds to go. And yes, as noted he had a very good defense and running back with him, but Wilson was the steady hand at QB that elevated a mediocre team previous to him getting there into one of the league's elite immediately.

Kyler has shown a little of that end game clutchness (Detroit, Cincy, Atlanta), but also shown he can be in meltdown mode as well in the Baltimore, Carolina and last week's head-scratching two-minute drill slog. I just need to see more of that and at least a little more effect on the W/L column before we go mentioning these guys in the same breath.

I think it’s fair to compare the two. Russell Wilson is transcendent no doubt, but let’s state the obvious:

1) He had arguably the greatest defense of all time. The legion of boom was historic for a 3 year stretch. This team had Richard Sherman, Bobby Wagner, Kam Chancellor, Earl Thomas, KJ Wright and more.

2) His coach was & is the legendary Pete Carrol who won multiple championships at USC before heading to Seattle.

3) Some noticeable surrounding cast members on offense include Marshawn Lynch, Golden Tate, Max Unger & Russell Okung...

I think it’s fair to assume if Kyler was on this team he would have had them at 6-4 too if not better.

 

[JosiahLee]

You forgot the most important stat. Wins and losses. Murray is nowhere close to the level of Russell Wilson. Silly stat comparison.

I honestly didn’t even consider the Wins & Losses...But it’s 3 vs 6, 10 games into both of their careers.

 

[daves]

Rushing Attempts:

RW: 52
KM: 59

Not much different....

The point being, Kyler Murray has the ball in his hands a TON compared to RW, and when you start breaking out the averages, the numbers are not as impressive.

The interception numbers sure are.

...dbs

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

The stat comparison also makes no sense because Kyler has to do a lot more throwing than Russ did on account of being behind and the nature of his offense.

Let's look at attempts.

RW: 253
KM: 360

100 more attempts to get to those numbers.

Rushing Attempts:

RW: 52
KM: 59

Sacks:

RW: 19
KM: 31

The point being, Kyler Murray has the ball in his hands a TON compared to RW, and when you start breaking out the averages, the numbers are not as impressive.

The Y/A and AY/A were clearly posted for everybody to see in post #4.. they are extremely close. Not sure why you would bring up counting stats to try to knock Murray's efficiency without posting the averages so everybody can see a factual comparison.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

Yeah why judge on W and L that would be ridiculous [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you are intellectually dishonest and just looking for any way to knock Murray you might turns to wins and losses instead of actually looking at the things that the quarterback is able to control on the field. No other reason.

We have the worst defense in the league.
Russell had the best.

Kyler's performance on offense is as good or better than Russ's (in the context of this thread which is their first 10 NFL games). That is an objective fact.

The difference between their wins and losses in their rookies years is the defense and other factor's outside of the quarterback's control such as head coaches' game management, clock control, etc. Kyler has put his team in the same or better situation than Russell did on offense. The rest of the team needs to do their part to win games.


Look at our game against San Francisco on Thursday night.

Is there any doubt in anybody's mind that Kyler would have won that game for us if he got the ball back? Our defense let SF run the clock out for over 4 minutes to end the game. Russ's defense would have gotten him that ball back. Until that starts happening, people will label Kyler as an empty stat guy that can't win games. Just like they did to Devin Booker until they finally put a real team around him.

 

[football karma]

keep in mind

Wilson had four years experience in college -- he started 40 games and nearly 1,500 passing attempts. Murray played in 29, started 14, with only 500 passing attempts.

i think Murray has shown he has the potential, but i think it may take him longer to get there

 

[Solar7]

Not much different....

The interception numbers sure are.

...dbs

The point was to show how often KM has the ball in his hands compared to RW in his rookie year.

Russell Wilson got a TD every 16 attempts. Kyler every 30. That is a tremendous difference in efficiency. That's a major reason we're not a winning team.

All of the stats can be manipulated to tell your own story, but of course, "Kyler is a Hall of Famer or the equivalent" is still the only supported narrative.

The Y/A and AY/A were clearly posted for everybody to see in post #4.. they are extremely close. Not sure why you would bring up counting stats to try to knock Murray's efficiency without posting the averages so everybody can see a factual comparison.

I missed post #4 being a comparison of the first 10 games and didn't have the time at the moment to do all of the math myself. But the story is out there.

 

[Solar7]

If you are intellectually dishonest and just looking for any way to knock Murray you might turns to wins and losses instead of actually looking at the things that the quarterback is able to control on the field. No other reason.

We have the worst defense in the league.
Russell had the best.

Kyler's performance on offense is as good or better than Russ's (in the context of this thread which is their first 10 NFL games). That is an objective fact.

The difference between their wins and losses in their rookies years is the defense and other factor's outside of the quarterback's control such as head coaches' game management, clock control, etc. Kyler has put his team in the same or better situation than Russell did on offense. The rest of the team needs to do their part to win games.


Look at our game against San Francisco on Thursday night.

Is there any doubt in anybody's mind that Kyler would have won that game for us if he got the ball back? Our defense let SF run the clock out for over 4 minutes to end the game. Russ's defense would have gotten him that ball back. Until that starts happening, people will label Kyler as an empty stat guy that can't win games. Just like they did to Devin Booker until they finally put a real team around him.

And I'll say... other QBs are not given the excuse of the team around them on this board. Maybe that's not coming from you, but guys like Cousins and Stafford are just lambasted on this board when they have the same reasons Kyler does for not winning these games.

I agree KM deserves some leeway for not winning, because the defense is atrocious, but the comparisons to Hall of Fame QBs are just ridiculous, given that Russ had to do it when the team was still in the game or held a lead, as compared to just being able to let it rip when we're down and playing from behind. It's a volume play right now.

 

[JosiahLee]

And I'll say... other QBs are not given the excuse of the team around them on this board. Maybe that's not coming from you, but guys like Cousins and Stafford are just lambasted on this board when they have the same reasons Kyler does for not winning these games.

I agree KM deserves some leeway for not winning, because the defense is atrocious, but the comparisons to Hall of Fame QBs are just ridiculous, given that Russ had to do it when the team was still in the game or held a lead, as compared to just being able to let it rip when we're down and playing from behind. It's a volume play right now.

I for one am not predicting he has Russell Wilson’s success in his career.

But comparing them 10 games into their careers, the numbers are similar...You note that Kyler has inflated stats because his passing yards are superior due to playing from behind...I honestly don’t care much for the passing yards.

In comparing the two what stood out to me was completion percentage and TD/INT ratio...Both are nearly identical.

 

[TaylorSwift]

Kyler is a better rookie than Russ and will be a better qb than Russ now and I believe Russ may be a top 10 all time qb when its all said and done.

 

[Solar7]

I for one am not predicting he has Russell Wilson’s success in his career.

But comparing them 10 games into their careers, the numbers are similar...You note that Kyler has inflated stats because his passing yards are superior due to playing from behind...I honestly don’t care much for the passing yards.

In comparing the two what stood out to me was completion percentage and TD/INT ratio...Both are nearly identical.

I dunno, maybe I'm at a disadvantage because of my career, being mostly stuck in stats and some kind of predictive modeling with digital marketing. It's probably what is driving me crazy about the whole thing.

If I walked into a meeting and said I view our campaign a success because it mirrored the sales production of a campaign from last year, but I had an increased budget of 42% to get the same (slightly lesser) result, I'd be laughed out of the room. It's just one of those things.

Kyler is a better rookie than Russ and will be a better qb than Russ now and I believe Russ may be a top 10 all time qb when its all said and done.

If I didn't like your username so much I'd be calling out this hot take way more.

 

[SoonerLou]

The stat comparison also makes no sense because Kyler has to do a lot more throwing than Russ did on account of being behind and the nature of his offense.

Let's look at attempts.

RW: 253
KM: 360

100 more attempts to get to those numbers.

Rushing Attempts:

RW: 52
KM: 59

Sacks:

RW: 19
KM: 31

The point being, Kyler Murray has the ball in his hands a TON compared to RW, and when you start breaking out the averages, the numbers are not as impressive.

I'm a big fan of QBR. By the end of his rookie season Russ was top 3 in the league.

What propelled to Russ in the top 3 was how strong he finished the season. The last 6 weeks he was probably the best QB in the league. Will Kyler do that? Likely not.


In terms of the first 10 weeks he doubled Kyler in wins. He also had the benefit of winning games with offensive outputs of 14 and 16.

Russ was still better overall his rookie year because he thrived at two areas of struggle for Kyler (3rd down and redzone)

First 10 games for his QBR
36.2
56.6
41.3
45.8
41.1
93.5
25
91.2
62.9
72.2

Kyler's QBR is 57.1
Russ was a 56.8 (10 games in. Finished at 72 to end the season)

Again Russ truly closed out the year on a strong note.

I think people can't have it both ways when comparing QBs though. Because I remember very well that people were upset that Kyler wasn't playing as well as Luck, Watson, Dak, Russ etc when they were rookies. Now that he is people aren't in to comparisons.

Does that mean he's as good or will be as good? No. However, I'd rather have these comparison conversations than talking about how Goff was bad his rookie year and turned it around (ala Rosen).

 

[Solar7]

I'm a big fan of QBR. By the end of his rookie season Russ was top 3 in the league.

What propelled to Russ in the top 3 was how strong he finished the season. The last 6 weeks he was probably the best QB in the league. Will Kyler do that? Likely not.


In terms of the first 10 weeks he doubled Kyler in wins. He also had the benefit of winning games with offensive outputs of 14 and 16.

Russ was still better overall his rookie year because he thrived at two areas of struggle for Kyler (3rd down and redzone)

First 10 games for his QBR
36.2
56.6
41.3
45.8
41.1
93.5
25
91.2
62.9
72.2

Kyler's QBR is 57.1
Russ was a 56.8 (10 games in. Finished at 72 to end the season)

Again Russ truly closed out the year on a strong note.

I think people can't have it both ways when comparing QBs though. Because I remember very well that people were upset that Kyler wasn't playing as well as Luck, Watson, Dak, Russ etc when they were rookies. Now that he is people aren't in to comparisons.

Does that mean he's as good or will be as good? No. However, I'd rather have these comparison conversations than talking about how Goff was bad his rookie year and turned it around (ala Rosen).

I have to say, I truly enjoy your posts. You have a solid sense of optimism that's still tied to reality, and admits flaws/areas of improvement.

 

[gimpy]

Solar, refresh my memory with the HOF qb's KM has been compared to on here please. I'm drawing a blank right now and not having any luck with the search.
Thx.


Never mind. I think I might have found a couple posts that mentioned some names, but not sure he was being compared to them or not. I'm not actually sure which of them are hof'ers and which are not.

 

[Solar7]

Solar, refresh my memory with the HOF qb's KM has been compared to on here please. I'm drawing a blank right now and not having any luck with the search.
Thx.

This is a thread comparing him to an inevitable Hall of Famer. Wilson could retire tomorrow and would be a first ballot guy.

(For what it's worth, I'm not sure if you're genuinely asking me, or trying to claim no one has compared him to HOF-tier players.)

There were people in the offseason saying that KM is more athletic, more accurate, and more mindful on the field in avoiding hits than RW.

A couple of posts referencing "Hall of Famer" though, using my Google-fu...

If the Cardinals draft Murray and he turns out to be what they think he can, then what happens with Rosen and what we get for him has no importance whatsoever in relation to filling the QB position which is the most important one to get right. If they take Murray and he turns out to be worse than Rosen, than anything gotten for Rosen will be like putting a band aid on a bullet wound. You either draft Murray because you believe in him more than Rosen or stick with Rosen because he's the one. With all the needs on this team, you do not draft Murray unless you feel he is way better than Rosen. Kingsbury might like him for his long appreciation for him with his skill set to put his stamp on the team but Keim and Michael are going to have to like him for being an elite possible Hall of Famer to draft him for the franchise after taking Rosen

Kyler Murray is the Perfect Storm. It's really difficult for NFL prognosticators to gauge exactly what KM will produce, because the NFL hasn't seen a skill set like his before. He's even different than Wilson was coming out of college. It's understandable that rookie QB's, no matter how talented, struggle a little coming out of the gate in the NFL. If Murray were drafted by a team in a traditional offensive system, then it might take a little time for that team to truly understand how to use him. That won't be the case with the Cardinals. If the Cardinals didn't have the 1st pick, I'm not 100% sold that we would have hired KK. With KM sitting in our lap, the Cardinals did their homework & saw that KM/KK was a marriage made in heaven. KK will make the NFL transition for KM much, much simpler. He's putting together an offense that Murray can run to perfection in his sleep. Not to say that he won't make some mistakes. I'm sure he will. But what makes KM special will be put on display from day 1. We're a cursed franchise. Unfortunately, I do believe that. But, this may be the time when even a traditionally cursed franchise has their moment in the sun. Older fans like myself deserve to sit back and enjoy every second of this. Younger fans will gravitate to KM & the Cardinals will be the talk of the town. Not just in AZ, but across the entire NFL landscape.

Agree PACardsFan. Especially with the bolded part, which doesn't get discussed enough (relatively speaking ).

The word "unicorn" is overused. So is the phrase "generational talent", which has an incredibly high standard if you think about it.

But dammit, I've watched all of Murray's 2018 games at least twice, and I swear to you he does things on a football field that I've never seen another player do before. Not Mayfield. Not Bradford. Not Josh Rosen, or Andrew Luck. And I've been watching football a long time.

And the pairing with KK? I think you're all over that. Drafting Murray certainly gives KK the best chance to succeed, and hiring KK would seem to be, like you mentioned, the best way to immediately leverage Murray's talents. Could it be that Lampshade Stevie drunkenly stumbled onto the ultimate HC/QB pairing?

Maybe. I think it is possible (possible I say! 20% chance!) that two years from now, they will be calling Keim a genius for hiring KK, and then drafting Murray.

Just bolding some comments after a short search that maybe don't explicitly say "Hall of Fame," but you may as well say it if you're saying the NFL has never seen his skillset before.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Says the guy comparing our franchise QB to Drew freaking Stanton.

Hes been on my ignore list for quite some time.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm going to enjoy reading Solar bemoan how Murray isnt elite because be fell short of throwing for 500 yards in the Cardinals NFC championship win over the Cowboys. LOL.

Down is up. Goff isnt a terrible QB. Reading to Solar is like listening to Baghdad Bob.

 

[Solar7]

I'm going to enjoy reading Solar bemoan how Murray isnt elite because be fell short of throwing for 500 yards in the Cardinals NFC championship win over the Cowboys. LOL.

Down is up. Goff isnt a terrible QB. Reading to Solar is like listening to Baghdad Bob.

How about he beats literally anyone with a winning record before we start saying he's going to just fall short of throwing for 500 yards in an NFC Championship game?

Our winningest QB in franchise history got spanked in the NFC Championship, maybe we just temper expectations just a little bit, bro...

Edit: Also, I suppose we'll just ignore that Goff dropped 32 TDs and only 12 INTs on the way to a 13-3 season last year. Awful! Terrible! Bet they wish they had Ryan Fitzpatrick back!