Krang's first day assessment

[Krangodnzr]

First off, the trade.....I thought we got jobbed. I really didn't like this trade, but I think that Graves felt that after a few players (my guesses would be Robertson, Rogers, and Newman) were gone, that there wasn't that much difference in rest of the 1st round quality players.

So they trade back. And the run happens on defensive lineman. The Cards look like they were targeting Jerome McDougle, but the crafty Eagles traded ahead of us and took him. The Cards then went to the next guy on their board, Calvin Pace.

I like Bryant Johnson, though he is not a great value at 17. He will probably be a decent receiver and reminds me a lot of Frank Sanders, though he is faster. Good size, decent hands, I basically like this pick.

Pace was a guy that I was high on, though not at this part in the draft. He has speed (he ran a 4.6 at campus workouts), strength (benches 450), and he has been productive. He is a pretty good player, that flew off many peoples radar screens and I think that is why many are so darn upset. Gil Brandt just said on the radio that he is a damn good football player (Brandt really liked our draft).

Boldin is a football player. He ran poor forty times, but he is still recovering from a knee injury. He is a 4.4 guy, with size. He could be another pretty good football player also. A former qb, anyone who has watched FSU football in the last couple of years will tell you this guy is a player.

Gerald Hayes gets mixed reviews. Some people will tell you he is a very good player, who is very tough and is productive. Others don't give him a ringing endorsement. Personally, I think he is a pretty good prospect. And he won't have to contribute immediately.

 

[stlouiecard]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
So what do you think of your boy Graves now?
Do you still think we should all wait on our assessments until the end of training camp as you have prescribed in the past?

Johnson is an okay pick for a team desperate for a WR since we let our best WR walk!
Pace is a reach and he will be reaching for the water jug as he watches from the sidelines-he is not an upgrade from KVB or Dennis Johnson.
Boldin is fine and dandy but I would have taken Justin Gage here instead. Gage is 6'5 and runs 4.4 - he would have been the perfect possession WR that this team needs.
and Hayes-well I guess we should plan for McKinnon's departure and since Levar Fisher has been an injury bust thus far I guess we have to continue to stockpile LB's?????

So what do you think Kranger are going to continue to defend the Regime or do you think that these serious blunders might change the tune a little?
First off, the trade.....I thought we got jobbed. I really didn't like this trade, but I think that Graves felt that after a few players (my guesses would be Robertson, Rogers, and Newman) were gone, that there wasn't that much difference in rest of the 1st round quality players.

So they trade back. And the run happens on defensive lineman. The Cards look like they were targeting Jerome McDougle, but the crafty Eagles traded ahead of us and took him. The Cards then went to the next guy on their board, Calvin Pace.

I like Bryant Johnson, though he is not a great value at 17. He will probably be a decent receiver and reminds me a lot of Frank Sanders, though he is faster. Good size, decent hands, I basically like this pick.

Pace was a guy that I was high on, though not at this part in the draft. He has speed (he ran a 4.6 at campus workouts), strength (benches 450), and he has been productive. He is a pretty good player, that flew off many peoples radar screens and I think that is why many are so darn upset. Gil Brandt just said on the radio that he is a damn good football player (Brandt really liked our draft).

Boldin is a football player. He ran poor forty times, but he is still recovering from a knee injury. He is a 4.4 guy, with size. He could be another pretty good football player also. A former qb, anyone who has watched FSU football in the last couple of years will tell you this guy is a player.

Gerald Hayes gets mixed reviews. Some people will tell you he is a very good player, who is very tough and is productive. Others don't give him a ringing endorsement. Personally, I think he is a pretty good prospect. And he won't have to contribute immediately.

 

[Krangodnzr]

"So what do you think of your boy Graves now?
Do you still think we should all wait on our assessments until the end of training camp as you have prescribed in the past?

Johnson is an okay pick for a team desperate for a WR since we let our best WR walk!
Pace is a reach and he will be reaching for the water jug as he watches from the sidelines-he is not an upgrade from KVB or Dennis Johnson.
Boldin is fine and dandy but I would have taken Justin Gage here instead. Gage is 6'5 and runs 4.4 - he would have been the perfect possession WR that this team needs.
and Hayes-well I guess we should plan for McKinnon's departure and since Levar Fisher has been an injury bust thus far I guess we have to continue to stockpile LB's?????

So what do you think Kranger are going to continue to defend the Regime or do you think that these serious blunders might change the tune a little?"



Ok, this is really funny.

You come on here very rarely, and you try to tell me what I think.

Justin Gage wasn't taken on the first day for a reason....he is a marginal prospect. I bet that you have never watched Boldin play. And I think it is quite absurd that you try and say that Fisher is an injury bust....he has only played one season.

Pace is a much better athlete than DJ, and I will bet that he will be our starting end at the end of training camp. Question, have you ever watched Wake Forest play? What's your wager?

 

[AZCB34]

The trade-down was a brilliant move with horrible terms. I liked the concept going but I think Graves got taken to school on this one. But in the big picture I liked it and was excited at whom Graves was going to pick.

THEN, he picked.

Johnson. OK, I will concede this one a bit although I don't remember a single mock draft (expert or otherwise) who had him in the 1st round let alone middle of first round. He satisfies a need but just a bad pick timing wise.

Pace. Jeez this one plain sucked. I can only hope the Cards saw something in him. He is a thrid round pick who won the lottery. Even if you hate the ESPN guys when they analyze the draft, their utter shock (almost speechless) is a telling sign as is the almost pin drop silence in the place the draft was being held. Thispick could be Graves' legacy...good or bad. At this point I would have preferred they pick Suggs.

Bolden I am unfamiliar with and then they use their precious 3rd rounder on a LB. I just don't know what they were thinking.

At this moment, there really can be little faith in Graves et al. I question alot of what they did today. They could have saved the poor trade with killer picks but they only exacerbated the problem. They better continue their Day 2 and UDFA magic otherwise Draft 2003 is a washout.

 

[stlouiecard]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
"So what do you think of your boy Graves now?
Do you still think we should all wait on our assessments until the end of training camp as you have prescribed in the past?

Johnson is an okay pick for a team desperate for a WR since we let our best WR walk!
Pace is a reach and he will be reaching for the water jug as he watches from the sidelines-he is not an upgrade from KVB or Dennis Johnson.
Boldin is fine and dandy but I would have taken Justin Gage here instead. Gage is 6'5 and runs 4.4 - he would have been the perfect possession WR that this team needs.
and Hayes-well I guess we should plan for McKinnon's departure and since Levar Fisher has been an injury bust thus far I guess we have to continue to stockpile LB's?????

So what do you think Kranger are going to continue to defend the Regime or do you think that these serious blunders might change the tune a little?"



Ok, this is really funny.

You come on here very rarely, and you try to tell me what I think.

Justin Gage wasn't taken on the first day for a reason....he is a marginal prospect. I bet that you have never watched Boldin play. And I think it is quite absurd that you try and say that Fisher is an injury bust....he has only played one season.

Pace is a much better athlete than DJ, and I will bet that he will be our starting end at the end of training camp. Question, have you ever watched Wake Forest play? What's your wager?

Krang, where in my post did I say that I am "try to tell me what I think"???? No just a question. You have supported the Graves regime in the past and I was just wondering if you thought that these serious blunders today had an effect on how you thought? Just a question!

I have seen Boldin play- I like his toughness and I think he will do just fine,however, Gage is not marginal and he will do well also wherever he lands. Pace - I have seen play as well and I can tell you that I do not think he will play up to a Suggs or even a McDougle. Just admit it we should have taken Suggs and we could of had our B. Johnson and A. Boldin also. Graves screwed up! The Eagles are laughing and we are having another conversation where you don't understand plain english.

 

[Houdini]

Yesterday when I heard the possiblity of trading with the Saints for their 2 first rounders, I had no problem with it. I didn't realize the Cardinals would have to toss in a 4th rounder and switch spots in the 2nd round though. That was giving up to much in my opinion.

I would have liked to have seen the Cardinals pick Boller with one of their 1st round picks. I didn't like picking Pace where they did. He could turn out to be a player, no one knows for sure. But since they didn't want Boller, I would have used one of their first round picks to try and trade down again into the 2nd round to get more picks and then pick Pace there in the 2nd round if you wanted him so bad. I think he would have been available there, but who knows for sure. Woulda, coulda, shoulda, None of us can really know for sure who will pan out or not. But I do think they gave up to much in the trade.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by stlouiecard
Krang, where in my post did I say that I am "try to tell me what I think"???? No just a question. You have supported the Graves regime in the past and I was just wondering if you thought that these serious blunders today had an effect on how you thought? Just a question!

I have seen Boldin play- I like his toughness and I think he will do just fine,however, Gage is not marginal and he will do well also wherever he lands. Pace - I have seen play as well and I can tell you that I do not think he will play up to a Suggs or even a McDougle. Just admit it we should have taken Suggs and we could of had our B. Johnson and A. Boldin also. Graves screwed up! The Eagles are laughing and we are having another conversation where you don't understand plain english.

I don't necessarily support Graves, I just think that he will dig his own grave and I will judge it from there.....(I really love puns!)

I like Pace, and I DO think he was a reach. I definitely think we were targeting McDougle, and missed out so we drafted our next rated end.

It looks like we have a misunderstanding here....I don't support Graves per se, and you aren't trying to tell me what I think!

 

[stlouiecard]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I don't necessarily support Graves, I just think that he will dig his own grave and I will judge it from there.....(I really love puns!)

I like Pace, and I DO think he was a reach. I definitely think we were targeting McDougle, and missed out so we drafted our next rated end.

It looks like we have a misunderstanding here....I don't support Graves per se, and you aren't trying to tell me what I think!

Cool, thanks for the clarification. I always thought that Cards fans should be able to discuss their team productively especially since their are so few of us. I have actually seen Bolden play and it was actually against Wake in the middle of this last season. I think Bolden caught a TD and Pace didn't do much Fla St. won and that's really all I remember.
I will admitt that I am partial to Gage since he is here at Mizzou. He played both Basketball and Football and was productive and a hard nosed player with both. I think that Gage, with the proper Weight training could actually be another David Boston. He has his size, strength and speed???? We shall see.

I actually hate bashing Graves. Infact, I commended him heavily when he signed Blake. But, this draft is pure proof that he has not only destroyed what was built in the past but he has no clue how to build for the future and with team in it's current state that spells one thing 4-12 and 5-11 seasons and I have seen way too many of those over the last 30 years. Therefore, I am going to say my peace when it comes to the leader of this organization. He needs to do better or needs to be replaced by someone more capable. I'm tired of this team hiring unqualified unproven personnel to run this team. It happened here in ST. Louis with Boone and it is happening in AZ - Graves is making Fergie look pretty good and that's sad!

 

[Tangodnzr]

OK....my 2 cents:

I pretty much agree with your original post Krang. In many ways this has been the wierdest draft I've seen in a long time.

I liked the trade down move. I would have liked to see them take Kennedy, but ....as with the Suggs wagoners....I can see why they made the move at that point. Things just got strange, and pretty much unexpected from there.

A couple of things I see here that I like are:
1 - The Cards do seem to have a definite plan and are sticking too it for the most part.
2 - As the draft has proceeded, so far, they increasingly, but have from the start, been seeming to rate ability over need. That's a pleasant surprise. I think that's especially evident in the Boldin and Hayes picks.
3 - I think the trade was a good one.
Net result = Cards get 2 first round picks. drop 17 picks in 2nd round, and lose their 4th.
Which in essence means they exchanged a 4th for a 1st.
I don't think the Cards got taken to the cleaners at all. Frankly... given the choice, I'd rather be on their side of the trade. They've got the money to sign 2 first rounders.

I still don't feel totally comfortable with our CB situation, And I'd still like to see a wide-butt anchor DT.

Could Keith Traylor be in the plans after June 1st???

 

[stlouiecard]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
OK....my 2 cents:

I pretty much agree with your original post Krang. In many ways this has been the wierdest draft I've seen in a long time.

I liked the trade down move. I would have liked to see them take Kennedy, but ....as with the Suggs wagoners....I can see why they made the move at that point. Things just got strange, and pretty much unexpected from there.

A couple of things I see here that I like are:
1 - The Cards do seem to have a definite plan and are sticking too it for the most part.
2 - As the draft has proceeded, so far, they increasingly, but have from the start, been seeming to rate ability over need. That's a pleasant surprise. I think that's especially evident in the Boldin and Hayes picks.
3 - I think the trade was a good one.
Net result = Cards get 2 first round picks. drop 17 picks in 2nd round, and lose their 4th.
Which in essence means they exchanged a 4th for a 1st.
I don't think the Cards got taken to the cleaners at all. Frankly... given the choice, I'd rather be on their side of the trade. They've got the money to sign 2 first rounders.

I still don't feel totally comfortable with our CB situation, And I'd still like to see a wide-butt anchor DT.

Could Keith Traylor be in the plans after June 1st???

Would you enlighten us to the Cardinals plan because many of us fans aren't seeing it. You have said that the Cards rated ability over need,however, I can't agree with that when we drafted two Wr and a DE - sounds to me like that's what we needed. The Cards traded out of the top 15 which put themselves in a cheaper salary bracket, but when you add up the signing bonus' along with Mr. Bolden's money I think that Suggs and Johnson would have been cheaper and many will say much richer in talent/production.

But mostly I would like to know what it is that you know about this plan.

 

[cardpa]

Trust in Graves he will lead us to the promise land. I like Bryant he will fill a WR need and return punts. Two needs in one pick. Maybe the plan with the LB pick is to go to a 3-4 alignment.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by stlouiecard
Would you enlighten us to the Cardinals plan because many of us fans aren't seeing it. You have said that the Cards rated ability over need,however, I can't agree with that when we drafted two Wr and a DE - sounds to me like that's what we needed. The Cards traded out of the top 15 which put themselves in a cheaper salary bracket, but when you add up the signing bonus' along with Mr. Bolden's money I think that Suggs and Johnson would have been cheaper and many will say much richer in talent/production.

But mostly I would like to know what it is that you know about this plan.

First of all, you say you think Suggs and Johnson would have been cheaper. I have a couple of problems with that statement. First of all, the Cards obviously didn't want Suggs, at least at #6 anyway, which is fine with me, I agree with that. I've said it all along. Secondly, how is it you propose that the Cards would have Suggs AND Johnson....as an alternative to what they do? If they don't trade, take Suggs, then the only way they get Johnson is with the #37...and I, and I'm willing to bet a lot of others don't think Johnson would have made it there. I also doubt that money was much of a consideration at all. The Card's haven't done anything recently to show they are not willing to spend money. I think that is an issue in YOUR head only and not an issue with the Cards. (in this case, at least)

I dont "know" their plan. Never said I did. But if you take the time to piece a few observations together, with some semblance of objectivity, I think that it should become self evident to most that they aren't just running around "with no plan".

Observe todays events: The clock comes up. No real big surpises yet....then the trade. Afterwards on ESPN Mac says"
We had 3 people we wanted at #6. They were gone. We had planned all week that we would try to trade down should that be the case."
So there you have it, my friend, straight from the horses mouth. And Mac hasn't lied yet, and I don't expect him to start now.
They obviously didn't like the players available at the time.
So they went to Plan B.
Unlike some here, I believe Mac and Graves to be fairly intelligent and professional in their Jobs. They are no dummies. The only "dummies" are the ones that accuse them of being such.
I trust that they made the best deal they could given the actual circimstances "of the moment".
With the trade flurries starting, I think it caused a lot of commotion with everyones predraft plans. Everyone was suddenly having to scramble like mad to drastically alter and update plans.
As far as the 2 WR's and a DE being needs. I can't argue that. But once they did pick Johnson then immediately came back with Boldin in the 2nd I consider more an ability pick than a need one.
Johnson was a nice choice, great ability that fills a need. I like the pick of Pace in place of say, Suggs because I just think Pace has a better chance of being a good all-around DE.
And the pick of Hayes also smells more of ability and future use more than of immediate need.
Both Johnson and Boldin are supposedly good return guys.
Do you think that's also an accident?
No...No....if you can't see that there has been SOME kind of planned out forethought in all this....then you are sleep walking my friend.

 

[Tangodnzr]

PS.... Wasn't Boldin also quoted as saying that he was told by Arizona receivers coach that they would take him in the second round if he was there? Sounds and looks suspiciously like they had some kind of plan there and stuck to it.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Well, I think my point has been proven.
After exiting this thread I then saw Krang has posted a new thread: "Good Article with Insight" which confirmed my observations literally word for word. I had never seen that article before I made my comments. I was merely writing down my observations.
Like I said, it was there for anyone with an open mind to see!

 

[Cards Czar]

Well when we traded down I was OK with but giving up a 4th is just plain stupid. You never and I mean never give up picks when tradeing down. What were they thinking? Thats the only problem I have with this trade.

 

[Goldfield]

yea I think the 4th hurts, but I will continue to be positive, till proven otherwise...