Keim's Cardinal CBs on roster

[Solar7]

So?

QBs on average had Daniel Jones level success against him.

You watched all of the Titans games?

I very much hope Butler doesn't have Petersons numbers. He sucked royally last year.

I've watched plenty of career Butler games. No, I did not watch every Titans game.

And I understand P2 wasn't good last year. He struggled. But you'll really be happy if our #1 CB gives up the most receptions and yardage in the league again? But because he did it efficiently, it's cool? You don't get that many targets against you if teams are in any way slightly worried about throwing at you.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I've watched plenty of career Butler games. No, I did not watch every Titans game.

And I understand P2 wasn't good last year. He struggled. But you'll really be happy if our #1 CB gives up the most receptions and yardage in the league again? But because he did it efficiently, it's cool? You don't get that many targets against you if teams are in any way slightly worried about throwing at you.

If it was at an 80 QB Rating, absolutely.

That means you're winning lots of football games.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I've watched plenty of career Butler games. No, I did not watch every Titans game.

And I understand P2 wasn't good last year. He struggled. But you'll really be happy if our #1 CB gives up the most receptions and yardage in the league again? But because he did it efficiently, it's cool? You don't get that many targets against you if teams are in any way slightly worried about throwing at you.

I bet you're one of those guys who argues that America won the Vietnam War because they killed more Vietnamese. Context matters for numbers, and the context for Butler is that he gave up an 80 QB Rating which is very good.

 

[Arz101]

Some of you may not be realizing, if Malcolm Butler is your #1 CB and he is just okay your team has problems with who is behind him.



Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

 

[DVontel]

This discussion just makes it that more infuriating that we drafted another off-ball Linebacker over Newsome.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I totally get being SUPER skeptical and even pessimistic about the CB group as joke because, well, we don’t really have a 2nd cornerback and our depth is a bunch of mid to late round rookies and well, Keim usually doesn’t find good rookies.

but to say we’re so much worse off with Butler instead of PP, who was not only rated one of the worst CBs in football last year, but failed the eye tests miserably as well, is just not in touch with reality at that spot. At worst it’s a push.

 

[football karma]

i suspect that the team will play much more zone than it has historically -- just my speculation.

as good as P2 was matched up in man -- he wasnt very good in zone coverages. lots of guessing to jump routes that led to big plays for the offense, and he just wasnt a good tackler.

Butler I suspect is a "do your job" kinda player -- adept at both zone and man. Murphy is a physical tackler. the team added two ILBs who are good at dreopping into zone coverage

 

[QuebecCard]

He still gave up the most yardage and receptions of any CB. I'm sorry, I just can't get excited.

I've also watched the guy play, and for years and years thought he was slow and overrated. Now he's even slower and older.

You're literally hoping our front 7 cuts like 400 yards and 30+ receptions from his numbers just to match Patrick Peterson's production from last year, by volume. He's our #1 CB and guys like Metcalf are just gonna turn the jets on and run right by him.

But we'll see. Sure, he's cheaper than P2. But of course he'll be rushed to be defended because he's a Cardinal no matter what.

There are numbers within numbers that you, of course, conveniently ignore.

And it doesn't matter how fast Metcalfe can run if Wilson is on his ass, and if it takes two to cover the guy we'll use two.

 

[QuebecCard]

This discussion just makes it that more infuriating that we drafted another off-ball Linebacker over Newsome.

Who's infuriated besides you?

 

[QuebecCard]

I bet you're one of those guys who argues that America won the Vietnam War because they killed more Vietnamese. Context matters for numbers, and the context for Butler is that he gave up an 80 QB Rating which is very good.

And so did the French, a lesson the US ignored.

 

[QuebecCard]

I've watched plenty of career Butler games. No, I did not watch every Titans game.

And I understand P2 wasn't good last year. He struggled. But you'll really be happy if our #1 CB gives up the most receptions and yardage in the league again? But because he did it efficiently, it's cool? You don't get that many targets against you if teams are in any way slightly worried about throwing at you.

Nobody did cool and inefficient with style better than PP21.

 

[Solar7]

There are numbers within numbers that you, of course, conveniently ignore.

And it doesn't matter how fast Metcalfe can run if Wilson is on his ass, and if it takes two to cover the guy we'll use two.

I'm not ignoring them. I have pointed out the efficiency multiple times. Sure, he was efficient, but he was targeted a ton and gave up a ton.

I can understand people being unhappy with Peterson last year, but it's not a shock that yards per attempt on him are higher than Butler's when the volume of balls thrown in Butler's direction is so high. And it also means his guys were open and worth targeting.

Like, we underrate the fact Peterson got 75 balls thrown his way, and Butler got 116, good for first. Teams didn't want to throw at PP21. They actively wanted to throw at Butler (the most targets of any CB in the league). I know that for some reason, PP21 had a huge fallout with the fanbase, but it hasn't been a long time since we all thought it was ridiculous that 2015 Patrick Peterson was also rated outside the top 50 on PFF grades.

And when we're talking Wilson on his ass, how many times have we had a solid pass rush and not been able to put him on his ass? What about the other non-factor CB we have on the other side, how about Lockett running by him? Our safeties aren't the best in coverage either.

The 49ers have strong outside WRs too.

 

[QuebecCard]

I'm not ignoring them. I have pointed out the efficiency multiple times. Sure, he was efficient, but he was targeted a ton and gave up a ton.

I can understand people being unhappy with Peterson last year, but it's not a shock that yards per attempt on him are higher than Butler's when the volume of balls thrown in Butler's direction is so high. And it also means his guys were open and worth targeting.

Like, we underrate the fact Peterson got 75 balls thrown his way, and Butler got 116, good for first. Teams didn't want to throw at PP21. They actively wanted to throw at Butler (the most targets of any CB in the league). I know that for some reason, PP21 had a huge fallout with the fanbase, but it hasn't been a long time since we all thought it was ridiculous that 2015 Patrick Peterson was also rated outside the top 50 on PFF grades.

And when we're talking Wilson on his ass, how many times have we had a solid pass rush and not been able to put him on his ass? What about the other non-factor CB we have on the other side, how about Lockett running by him? Our safeties aren't the best in coverage either.

The 49ers have strong outside WRs too.

There is precisely O correlation between number of targets and the average yards given up per catch and, if there was, one could just as easily make an argument opposite to yours.

PP21 no longer passes the eye test and numbers bear this out.

 

[football karma]

more context: if a team gives up a 80 passer rating for the year, its a top 5 passing defense.

the LAR gave up 80.4 and were no. 2 last year

if James Connor runs for 1,000 yards next season, but takes 325 carries to do it, that isnt a good year

 

[Solar7]

There is precisely O correlation between number of targets and the average yards given up per catch and, if there was, one could just as easily make an argument opposite to yours.

PP21 no longer passes the eye test and numbers bear this out.

Targets and receptions absolutely lower an average.

CB #1 gives up 3 receptions on 5 targets, 100 yards. Sadly, one goes for 50 yards and a TD.
CB #2 gives up 6 receptions on 10 targets, 150 yards. Sadly, one goes for 50 yards and a TD.

CB #1 = 33 yards per reception
CB #2 = 25 yards per reception

But one had the clearly better day. The other offered up 50 yards of potential first downs and drive-extending plays.

 

[Solar7]

I guess the question really becomes, do you want the guy to actually cover his opponent so they don't throw the ball his way? Or make a play on the ball when they throw it?

Obviously one provides the opportunities for turnovers, but Butler only netted one more turnover. More tackles, but is that because he had to tackle on 23 more receptions?

Edit: I guess I should say this. It's not Patrick Peterson vs. Malcolm Butler for me. It's "if you didn't like Patrick Peterson, you shouldn't have any more confidence in Malcolm Butler." Sure, one is cheaper. Cool. We have a lot of open money we're not spending at the moment. If we saved on Pat P., why not use that money to upgrade another corner spot with Nelson or something?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm not ignoring them. I have pointed out the efficiency multiple times. Sure, he was efficient, but he was targeted a ton and gave up a ton.

I can understand people being unhappy with Peterson last year, but it's not a shock that yards per attempt on him are higher than Butler's when the volume of balls thrown in Butler's direction is so high. And it also means his guys were open and worth targeting.

Like, we underrate the fact Peterson got 75 balls thrown his way, and Butler got 116, good for first. Teams didn't want to throw at PP21. They actively wanted to throw at Butler (the most targets of any CB in the league). I know that for some reason, PP21 had a huge fallout with the fanbase, but it hasn't been a long time since we all thought it was ridiculous that 2015 Patrick Peterson was also rated outside the top 50 on PFF grades.

And when we're talking Wilson on his ass, how many times have we had a solid pass rush and not been able to put him on his ass? What about the other non-factor CB we have on the other side, how about Lockett running by him? Our safeties aren't the best in coverage either.

The 49ers have strong outside WRs too.

49ers have strong outside receivER.

Going back to college, Deebo has been hurt more than he's played.

 

[Solar7]

49ers have strong outside receivER.

Going back to college, Deebo has been hurt more than he's played.

If he stays healthy (and don't give me a hard time for saying that, we have to say the same thing about part of our roster), he's definitely a threat.

Woods isn't as fast as the other guys at this point, and Kupp is getting covered in the slot by the guy we put a premium on, so I'm less concerned... but still.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm not ignoring them. I have pointed out the efficiency multiple times. Sure, he was efficient, but he was targeted a ton and gave up a ton.

I can understand people being unhappy with Peterson last year, but it's not a shock that yards per attempt on him are higher than Butler's when the volume of balls thrown in Butler's direction is so high. And it also means his guys were open and worth targeting.

Like, we underrate the fact Peterson got 75 balls thrown his way, and Butler got 116, good for first. Teams didn't want to throw at PP21. They actively wanted to throw at Butler (the most targets of any CB in the league). I know that for some reason, PP21 had a huge fallout with the fanbase, but it hasn't been a long time since we all thought it was ridiculous that 2015 Patrick Peterson was also rated outside the top 50 on PFF grades.

And when we're talking Wilson on his ass, how many times have we had a solid pass rush and not been able to put him on his ass? What about the other non-factor CB we have on the other side, how about Lockett running by him? Our safeties aren't the best in coverage either.

The 49ers have strong outside WRs too.

I think you don't understand efficiency.

If a CB is only giving up an 80 QB Rating, that's winning football.

 

[Krangodnzr]

If he stays healthy (and don't give me a hard time for saying that, we have to say the same thing about part of our roster), he's definitely a threat.

Woods isn't as fast as the other guys at this point, and Kupp is getting covered in the slot by the guy we put a premium on, so I'm less concerned... but still.

You go all crazy about Watts injury history and other Cardinals, but essentially give a free pass to a guy who has only shown GLIMPSES of even being a GOOD NFL WR.

 

[Solar7]

I think you don't understand efficiency.

If a CB is only giving up an 80 QB Rating, that's winning football.

Man, I don't think you understand volume then. This is wild, it's what I do for a living. My job is to produce stats, not prevent them, but all of the world's efficiency in a great campaign doesn't matter if the volume doesn't match up. It's wild how hard you'll defend this guy. Again, we'll see. In 2018, Butler allowed seven touchdowns vs. two interceptions and a passer rating of 102.7. In 2019, he played half a season, basically.

You go all crazy about Watts injury history and other Cardinals, but essentially give a free pass to a guy who has only shown GLIMPSES of even being a GOOD NFL WR.

I'm not even sure who you're talking about. Woods? Kupp? Woods has been a consistent threat, Kupp is really the main slot-only guy in our division that's an established threat, which is why I think it's ridiculous we invested into Murphy.

What else you got?

Edit: I also haven't trashed Watt. I'm excited but also cautious. Guys who miss significant time year and year again but have one flash of 16 games don't tend to play the whole time.

 

[BritCard]

I'm not ignoring them. I have pointed out the efficiency multiple times. Sure, he was efficient, but he was targeted a ton and gave up a ton.

I can understand people being unhappy with Peterson last year, but it's not a shock that yards per attempt on him are higher than Butler's when the volume of balls thrown in Butler's direction is so high. And it also means his guys were open and worth targeting.

Like, we underrate the fact Peterson got 75 balls thrown his way, and Butler got 116, good for first. Teams didn't want to throw at PP21. They actively wanted to throw at Butler (the most targets of any CB in the league). I know that for some reason, PP21 had a huge fallout with the fanbase, but it hasn't been a long time since we all thought it was ridiculous that 2015 Patrick Peterson was also rated outside the top 50 on PFF grades.

And when we're talking Wilson on his ass, how many times have we had a solid pass rush and not been able to put him on his ass? What about the other non-factor CB we have on the other side, how about Lockett running by him? Our safeties aren't the best in coverage either.

The 49ers have strong outside WRs too.

Now total up how many balls the 3 guys that started opposite had thrown their way. He had a lot of balls thrown his way because the Titans allowed teams to make a lot of passes.

 

[QuebecCard]

Targets and receptions absolutely lower an average.

CB #1 gives up 3 receptions on 5 targets, 100 yards. Sadly, one goes for 50 yards and a TD.
CB #2 gives up 6 receptions on 10 targets, 150 yards. Sadly, one goes for 50 yards and a TD.

CB #1 = 33 yards per reception
CB #2 = 25 yards per reception

But one had the clearly better day. The other offered up 50 yards of potential first downs and drive-extending plays.

Thanks for taking the time to create a "fictional" scenario.

 

[Stout]

I’ve thought Murphy outside was the plan or they would of added another vet

Moving Murphy outside would be a recipe for disaster. He's pretty good in the slot, but isn't good outside. He's 100 percent a slot guy.

 

[gimpy]

Butler. The only thing I know about him is, he is the one who intercepted Russell Wilson in the Super Bowl at the goal line and kept Seattle from winning the Super Bowl.