James Harden Traded to Houston

[SunsTzu]

Like Harden, the Thunder made a decision that decreased their chances of winning a championship in favor of money.

It's easier for players to latch onto championship contenders later in their career than it is for a team to build one. Guys coming off their rookie contract don't take discounts, it just doesn't happen.

 

[Russ Smith]

Like Harden, the Thunder made a decision that decreased their chances of winning a championship in favor of money.

But they didn't do it over ego, they did it over not wanting to get into huge luxury tax situations.

James Harden got a fair offer for the player he is. Now I get that someone will overspend for him whether it's Houston or someone else, but that doesn't mean OKC should.

THe core of that team all took less, why shouldn't he?

 

[SunsTzu]

THe core of that team all took less, why shouldn't he?

But they didn't, so why should he?

 

[Russ Smith]

Uhh what?

Collison got overpaid and Westbrook signed for a max contract....neither players would have gotten more on the market.

Uhh no he didn't he gave up the chance to get a "super max" contract by signing the deal he took. He got a "max contract" knowing it was likely he'd meet the requirements to get the super max.

The max gave him 25% of the cap, super max would have paid him another 5% of the cap. That would have been close to 3 million more.

Collison as someone else noted got a very creative deal they had 6.5 million left over so they gave it to him all upfront as a signing bonus. His first year salary was over 13 million, by the end of the deal he'll be making just over 2 million. His salary DECLINES ever year now.

Ibaka likely would have gotten deals comparable with guys like Lopez and Hibbert and Hibbert got 4 years 58, Ibaka got 4 years 48 or 2.5 million less per year.

The stars of that team got together and decided to take less, and not opt out clauses (durant and westbrook both). Harden didn't.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's easier for players to latch onto championship contenders later in their career than it is for a team to build one. Guys coming off their rookie contract don't take discounts, it just doesn't happen.

So he's not on a championship contender now? They're not asking him to stick around while they build the team, the team is already built.

 

[Russ Smith]

But they didn't, so why should he?

Yes they did.

Durant got a super max but didn't ask for an opt out, that's less than he could have gotten. Westbrook could have waited and got a super max but didn't, cost him 3 million per year. Ibaka took 2.5 million less than Roy Hibbert.

 

[Bodha]

I dont think hes 'The Man' material. He worked in OKC because he could hide behind Durant and RWB. Come off the bench. No pressure.



Look at him in the playoffs. Pressure and he friggin collapsed like a house of cards.


No thanks.

 

[SunsTzu]

Uhh no he didn't he gave up the chance to get a "super max" contract by signing the deal he took. He got a "max contract" knowing it was likely he'd meet the requirements to get the super max.

The max gave him 25% of the cap, super max would have paid him another 5% of the cap. That would have been close to 3 million more.

Westbrook would have had to of waited until the offseason(risking injury) and would have needed to of made an All NBA Team last year(which he did but it wasn't a lock) just to have a chance at the additional money.

If you're going to argue Westbrook took a discount despite the fact he got paid far more than any other team could have offered him, then I'd say Harden was offering a bigger discount because I bet the difference in what he gets with the Rockets compared to what he was asking is greater than what Westbrook potentially gave up.

Not to mention I disagree with Ibaka and Collison taking paycuts, both of whom signed deals that were equally beneficial to themselves as they were to the team, if not more so.

 

[SunsTzu]

Yes they did.

Durant got a super max but didn't ask for an opt out, that's less than he could have gotten. Westbrook could have waited and got a super max but didn't, cost him 3 million per year. Ibaka took 2.5 million less than Roy Hibbert.

Durant wasn't eligible for the super max(if he actually had gotten it then it would never have been an option for Westbrook since there can only be 1 per team)and not having a player option is nice but doesn't save money. Westbrook would have had to of waited until the offseason just for the possibility. He signed for the absolute max he could have at the time he signed the contract. Ibaka should be paid less than Hibbert.

Why didn't Perkins take a pay cut?

 

[SunsTzu]

Look at him in the playoffs. Pressure and he friggin collapsed like a house of cards.

I think you mean Finals, not playoffs. There was another guy who had a couple of real bad Finals series, but things seemed to work out ok for him last year.

 

[Bufalay]

But they didn't do it over ego, they did it over not wanting to get into huge luxury tax situations.

James Harden got a fair offer for the player he is. Now I get that someone will overspend for him whether it's Houston or someone else, but that doesn't mean OKC should.

THe core of that team all took less, why shouldn't he?

So Harden wanted more money in order to satisfy his ego? I would've guessed he wanted more money so he could buy more stuff.

Imagine how much less money Joe Johnson would've made over the course of his career if he had given the Suns a discount. Since he's one of the highest paid players in the NBA it looks like things have worked out nicely for him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Westbrook would have had to of waited until the offseason(risking injury) and would have needed to of made an All NBA Team last year(which he did but it wasn't a lock) just to have a chance at the additional money.

If you're going to argue Westbrook took a discount despite the fact he got paid far more than any other team could have offered him, then I'd say Harden was offering a bigger discount because I bet the difference in what he gets with the Rockets compared to what he was asking is greater than what Westbrook potentially gave up.

Not to mention I disagree with Ibaka and Collison taking paycuts, both of whom signed deals that were equally beneficial to themselves as they were to the team, if not more so.

At the time Westbrook did it most people felt he would have made the All NBA team, lock, of course not no such thing, but it's not like OKC was going to not give him the max deal if he waited and didn't qualify for the Super Max. He chose to take the max deal instead for a reason.

So you don't think Ibaka could have made the same money Hibbert did if he waited and hit the open market? Hibbert's a better scorer, Ibaka a better rebounder and shot blocker and defender. Ibaka knew all that and still signed the deal he did.

Collison yeah he benefitted up front but he intentionally structured his deal to free up more money later in the contract when they're going to need it. He was smart he realized he's in a great situation and yes he took advantage of them having 6,5 million they could give him right away, but that didn't hurt the team in anyway.

THey had 2 guys to deal with this offseason, both of them were offered less than the max, one took it, one didn't and got traded.

 

[Russ Smith]

Durant wasn't eligible for the super max(if he actually had gotten it then it would never have been an option for Westbrook since there can only be 1 per team)and not having a player option is nice but doesn't save money. Westbrook would have had to of waited until the offseason just for the possibility. He signed for the absolute max he could have at the time he signed the contract. Ibaka should be paid less than Hibbert.

Why didn't Perkins take a pay cut?

Yes you're right Durant couldn't have gotten that deal it wasn't available then.

I suspect they'll eventually do something with Perkins deal too it's been discussed they may even use their amnesty on him.

Ibaka is a better player than Hibbert, at least for OKC he is. Hibbert is good, and he's 3 years older than Ibaka. There's no way Ibaka couldn't have gotten a similar deal on the open market if he chose to wait for it.

Westbrook knew the super max was available, knew he could very realistically qualify for it, and chose to sign the max deal. There was a long discussion about this on one of the UCLA boards I read at the time it was happening. Kevin Love was mad that he didn't get the full 5 year max offer just 4. Since both guys are former UCLA players it was a hot topic and it was reported there well before it happened that Westbrook was going to take the max deal and not wait because he wanted to give the team a little more flexibilty.

Durant not asking for the opt out was like the 2nd big name guy who made that decision. Perkins also signed a no opt out. IBaka, Westbrook and Collison all took less than they could have likely gotten on the open market if they waited for free agency.

People made a big deal of the Heat players taking less to build a super team they forget they have opt outs.

 

[Russ Smith]

So Harden wanted more money in order to satisfy his ego? I would've guessed he wanted more money so he could buy more stuff.

Imagine how much less money Joe Johnson would've made over the course of his career if he had given the Suns a discount. Since he's one of the highest paid players in the NBA it looks like things have worked out nicely for him.

What stuff can he buy with 6 million over 4 years that he can't buy with 55 million over 5 years plusa litte more playoff money and possibly endorsement money?

He clearly wasn't interested in winning he wanted the money.

 

[Bufalay]

What stuff can he buy with 6 million over 4 years that he can't buy with 55 million over 5 years plusa litte more playoff money and possibly endorsement money?

He clearly wasn't interested in winning he wanted the money.

The Thunder were also more interested in the money.

6 millions dollars can buy a lot of stuff. Also doesn't the size of a players contract determine the potential size of future contracts? If so these things tend to add up over time. Joe Johnson has made 30 million dollars more than Ginobilli so far.

 

[sunsfan88]

Uhh no he didn't he gave up the chance to get a "super max" contract by signing the deal he took. He got a "max contract" knowing it was likely he'd meet the requirements to get the super max.

The max gave him 25% of the cap, super max would have paid him another 5% of the cap. That would have been close to 3 million more.

Collison as someone else noted got a very creative deal they had 6.5 million left over so they gave it to him all upfront as a signing bonus. His first year salary was over 13 million, by the end of the deal he'll be making just over 2 million. His salary DECLINES ever year now.

Ibaka likely would have gotten deals comparable with guys like Lopez and Hibbert and Hibbert got 4 years 58, Ibaka got 4 years 48 or 2.5 million less per year.

The stars of that team got together and decided to take less, and not opt out clauses (durant and westbrook both). Harden didn't.

First of all, Westbrook would have been risking injury and possible poor play (remember there were plenty of ?s about him shooting too much and inefficiency while not being true PG) to earn that extra money. And as someone else said, he would have also had to make the All NBA Team which was a challenge cause he has never made it before.

And who cares how Collison got the money?? The bottom line is that Collison got the money, even if its through signing bonus. I'm sure if OKC had offered Harden a deal in which he gets $60 million, even if its through signing bonus (I don't even think this is possible) then he would have taken it.

Ibaka was in a situation where there's only a handful of teams that he would have been effective on and that can truly show his skills. OKC was the best atmosphere for him because he could just block shots, play defense and be on an elite team while getting the fame for being OKC's "defense guy".

 

[slinslin]

So you don't think Ibaka could have made the same money Hibbert did if he waited and hit the open market? Hibbert's a better scorer, Ibaka a better rebounder and shot blocker and defender. Ibaka knew all that and still signed the deal he did.

Hibbert has way more impact on the game than Ibaka. How do you figure that Ibaka is a better rebounder, shot blocker and defender? Hibbert impacts the defense way more with his size and shot blocking while Ibaka seems to have little impact defensively despite his block numbers.

 

[Russ Smith]

The Thunder were also more interested in the money.

6 millions dollars can buy a lot of stuff. Also doesn't the size of a players contract determine the potential size of future contracts? If so these things tend to add up over time. Joe Johnson has made 30 million dollars more than Ginobilli so far.

and how much did Johnson win and how much did Ginobili win?

That's my point, if you want to make the most money possible do what harden did, if you want to win, don't.

Yes OKC is choosing money too but then the luxury tax goes up the same year Harden's new deal would kick in so it's not just another 1.2 million for them it's several million a year in luxury tax.

Harden had a chance to make his case for a max deal. Series with the Lakers they had to put Durant on Kobe late in a couple of games because harden couldn't guard him, Heat series he couldn't guard and scored 12 PPG on 38% shooting. Yes he's young and yes he'll get better but if you're in a contract year and you want a max contract, you have to earn it in those series, he didn't.

 

[Russ Smith]

First of all, Westbrook would have been risking injury and possible poor play (remember there were plenty of ?s about him shooting too much and inefficiency while not being true PG) to earn that extra money. And as someone else said, he would have also had to make the All NBA Team which was a challenge cause he has never made it before.

And who cares how Collison got the money?? The bottom line is that Collison got the money, even if its through signing bonus. I'm sure if OKC had offered Harden a deal in which he gets $60 million, even if its through signing bonus (I don't even think this is possible) then he would have taken it.

Ibaka was in a situation where there's only a handful of teams that he would have been effective on and that can truly show his skills. OKC was the best atmosphere for him because he could just block shots, play defense and be on an elite team while getting the fame for being OKC's "defense guy".

Why do you think Westbrook didn't take the chance at the Super Max? Because he knew the perception of him as being selfish and he wanted to show that wasn't true. THere's a guy who posts on BRO who worked with Westbrooks dad for years, posted all sorts of interesting inside info on Westbrook from before his commitment to UCLA until when he left etc. He posted several weeks in advance that Westbrook was going to take the max deal because he wanted to prove to his team that he wasn't selfish, that if him taking a few million left could help them keep Harden and Ibaka, he'd do it.

Every player in the NBA risks injury when they go out and play you can't worry about that and if you're worried you're not good enough you won't be a max player in the NBA let alone a super max.

Ibaka would get multiple offers, yes his offense is limited but he's young and getting better every year.

Collison is their do the little things guy.

Also, the day the Lakers got Howard, they decided Perkins' value went up. He has no role against the Heat but now you gotta beat the Lakers to get to the Heat and having a guy who can guard Howard is an asset. I still think he's massively overpaid but it's less likely now they can amnesty him.

 

[Russ Smith]

Hibbert has way more impact on the game than Ibaka. How do you figure that Ibaka is a better rebounder, shot blocker and defender? Hibbert impacts the defense way more with his size and shot blocking while Ibaka seems to have little impact defensively despite his block numbers.

Well the fact that he got more blocked shots than Hibbert is a good start? IN less minutes. He's close to catching Hibbert as a rebounder and that's playing on a team that has a bunch of guys who rebound, Durant, Collison, Perkins, even the OKC guards were all good rebounders.

Hibbert is a better offensive player, he's a very good player overall and he's 3 years older than Ibaka. On the open market Ibaka would get comparable offers, he chose not to get to the open market.


For a guy with little impact making first team all NBA defense and finishing 2nd in NBA DPOY voting is a little odd.

 

[slinslin]

Tyson Chandler won DPOY when the Knicks were a better defensive team when he was not on the court.

Kobe Bryant regularly made first team all defense despite being average at best defensively since 2002 or so.

All defensive team voting is the biggest joke among all NBA awards.

 

[Russ Smith]

Tyson Chandler won DPOY when the Knicks were a better defensive team when he was not on the court.

Kobe Bryant regularly made first team all defense despite being average at best defensively since 2002 or so.

All defensive team voting is the biggest joke among all NBA awards.

Ibaka had a better Defensive rating than Hibbert, which was another number you used to prop up Howard.

I'm guessing the Knicks going from one of the worst defensive efficiency teams to one of the best, after getting Chandler, had something to do with him winning the award. He only missed 4 games and they gave up about 10 PPG more in the games he missed, than in the games he played in.

 

[Bodha]

I think you mean Finals, not playoffs. There was another guy who had a couple of real bad Finals series, but things seemed to work out ok for him last year.

Leave me alone. Im a football guy.




Cmooon. Dont compare Harden with Lebron James, you kidden. Jeez laweez. I dont like him, but the weight of the collective basketball Universe was on Lebron to not only win, but carry all of his teams to a ring.

Harden came off the bench.

 

[slinslin]

Ibaka had a better Defensive rating than Hibbert, which was another number you used to prop up Howard.

I'm guessing the Knicks going from one of the worst defensive efficiency teams to one of the best, after getting Chandler, had something to do with him winning the award. He only missed 4 games and they gave up about 10 PPG more in the games he missed, than in the games he played in.

When Ibaka was on the floor the Thunder gave up 4 more points per 100 pos.
When Hibbert was on the floor the Pacers gave up 4 less points per 100 pos.

Hibbert is a legit 7'2 center, ibaka is a 6'9 PF a position that is the deepest in the league along with PG.

Hibbert had a Drtg of 100.0.
Ibaka had a Drtg of 108.73

a lower Drtg is better

Do you know which was the best defensive unit last year? Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Collison, Perkins! Hibbert anchored the 13th best.

New York (Chandler) isnt even found in the top 50. Ibaka first appears around # 30 behind 3 other OKC lineups.

http://basketballvalue.com/topunits.php?year=2012 playoffs&sortnumber=9&sortorder=ASC

 

[SweetD]

Kinda disappointed in this trade. Harden would have been a nice addition, just not sure we can find a SG through the draft or Free Agency next year. But this does mean we might loose more games this year to Houston.

If Jamaal Franklin can show something he might be a good pick up late in the draft.