instead of criticizing Payne...

[somethingshesaid]

...I'll just admit that having started looking at the Suns again only last year (after walking away from fanhood five years prior), that the biggest hole in my knowledge is Cameron Payne. I understand him the least of any Suns player. I haven't pinned down what Payne is and is not good at. Except that he seems to play better when starting. I don't think he seems a natural bench player. If not, that is an intractable problem until Chris Paul retires.

I'll say this less as criticism of Payne than a compliment toward someone else. The best Suns backup point guard I have ever witnessed isn't him. It's still Elliot Perry.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Would the Sun's be better without him? No.

 

[Chaplin]

...I'll just admit that having started looking at the Suns again only last year (after walking away from fanhood five years prior), that the biggest hole in my knowledge is Cameron Payne. I understand him the least of any Suns player. I haven't pinned down what Payne is and is not good at. Except that he seems to play better when starting. I don't think he seems a natural bench player. If not, that is an intractable problem until Chris Paul retires.

I'll say this less as criticism of Payne than a compliment toward someone else. The best Suns backup point guard I have ever witnessed isn't him. It's still Elliot Perry.

Goran Dragic was much better than Socks.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Goran Dragic was much better than Socks.

Of course he was, but why do you suppose I didn't think of him? Mainly because half his Suns career, he started. And most of the time when he came off the bench until the Spurs series, we thought Dragon was lousy.

You can't seriously think I was slighting a Suns hero. Robert Sarver did him wrong.

 

[Phrazbit]

Of course he was, but why do you suppose I didn't think of him? Mainly because half his Suns career, he started. And most of the time when he came off the bench until the Spurs series, we thought Dragon was lousy.

You can't seriously think I was slighting a Suns hero. Robert Sarver did him wrong.

The Suns did Dragic wrong?

Oooooooh, them fightin words, he planted a knife deep in the Suns back.

 

[Chaplin]

Of course he was, but why do you suppose I didn't think of him? Mainly because half his Suns career, he started. And most of the time when he came off the bench until the Spurs series, we thought Dragon was lousy.

You can't seriously think I was slighting a Suns hero. Robert Sarver did him wrong.

When Goran was a backup he was better than Socks. Him starting was a result of how good he was as a backup.

 

[Proximo]

...I'll just admit that having started looking at the Suns again only last year (after walking away from fanhood five years prior), that the biggest hole in my knowledge is Cameron Payne. I understand him the least of any Suns player. I haven't pinned down what Payne is and is not good at. Except that he seems to play better when starting. I don't think he seems a natural bench player. If not, that is an intractable problem until Chris Paul retires.

I'll say this less as criticism of Payne than a compliment toward someone else. The best Suns backup point guard I have ever witnessed isn't him. It's still Elliot Perry.

Well first thing you should know is he is playing at about 20 percent the level he played at last season lately, and I’m not sure why.

his strengths are driving to the hole, and he used to be a good 3 pt shooter. He does not really use the midrange. Not a very good passer, predominately a drive and dish guy.

he was better than Elliot perry last season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well first thing you should know is he is playing at about 20 percent the level he played at last season lately, and I’m not sure why.

his strengths are driving to the hole, and he used to be a good 3 pt shooter. He does not really use the midrange. Not a very good passer, predominately a drive and dish guy.

he was better than Elliot perry last season.

This is accurate in its entirety.

 

[somethingshesaid]

And how is Payne on defense?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And how is Payne on defense?

Last season he was a pest. But he can be bullied in the post (unlike Paul who will scratch and claw). This season he hasn’t seemed to be as effective.

 

[Yuma]

...I'll just admit that having started looking at the Suns again only last year (after walking away from fanhood five years prior), that the biggest hole in my knowledge is Cameron Payne. I understand him the least of any Suns player. I haven't pinned down what Payne is and is not good at. Except that he seems to play better when starting. I don't think he seems a natural bench player. If not, that is an intractable problem until Chris Paul retires.

I'll say this less as criticism of Payne than a compliment toward someone else. The best Suns backup point guard I have ever witnessed isn't him. It's still Elliot Perry.

When we had Kidd, Johnson, and Nash early in Nash's career, that was a PG roster, no slight to Elliot Perry!

Nash, Kidd, Johnson

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns did Dragic wrong?

Oooooooh, them fightin words, he planted a knife deep in the Suns back.

Yep, he did it twice. And yet, a lot of Suns fans still think of him fondly - contrast that with the popular opinion of McDyess who really only screwed us once. Besides, if anyone here did him wrong, it was not Sarver, it would have been Ryan McD.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yep, he did it twice. And yet, a lot of Suns fans still think of him fondly - contrast that with the popular opinion of McDyess who really only screwed us once. Besides, if anyone here did him wrong, it was not Sarver, it would have been Ryan McD.

And I don’t even blame mcdyess. He just wasn’t very smart and got duped by van exel and the nugz.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And I don’t even blame mcdyess. He just wasn’t very smart and got duped by van exel and the nugz.

For me the real culprit was John Lucas but yeah, I agree he was taken advantage of by people with agendas well beyond his own. It started with local sports talk shows who played up the idea that Ainge was dissing him by sitting him when he failed to play proper defense.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yep, he did it twice. And yet, a lot of Suns fans still think of him fondly - contrast that with the popular opinion of McDyess who really only screwed us once. Besides, if anyone here did him wrong, it was not Sarver, it would have been Ryan McD.

Yes, it was McD. I have no issues with Goran. If someone did to me what McD did to him, I'd leave too.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yep, he did it twice. And yet, a lot of Suns fans still think of him fondly - contrast that with the popular opinion of McDyess who really only screwed us once. Besides, if anyone here did him wrong, it was not Sarver, it would have been Ryan McD.

I look at it a bit more pragmatically.

The Suns gave up multiple picks/players to get McDyess in a three team trade only to see him return to the Nuggets in free agency for nothing. No lost loss for McDyess or Nuggets. He only spent one season in Phoenix.

At least when the Suns traded Dragic to the Heat, they received two first round picks with one of the two first round picks being instrumental in trading for Mikal Bridges.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes, it was McD. I have no issues with Goran. If someone did to me what McD did to him, I'd leave too.

Not me, I put it on Goran and the people advising him. McD absolutely did him wrong but it was after the trade. Goran reportedly said in the exit interview that he couldn't be the only ballhandler and the primary scorer at the same time and he needed help. So they got him help.

Yes it wasn't ideal when he was pushed into occasionally guarding the small forward spot but I've seen him do that plenty since he left Phoenix (without pouting) so I'm confident it was all about the concern that he was not going to maximize his next contract if he wasn't playing PG all the time.

But the real reason I have an issue with the manner in which he left is that they were finally clicking and playing great basketball with the trio of guards starting.

Maybe it was a language problem but when he basically whined in the press about being the one that had to sacrifice (despite our winning streak), that set in motion events that destroyed that team and set the Suns back several years.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I look at it a bit more pragmatically.

The Suns gave up multiple picks/players to get McDyess in a three team trade only to see him return to the Nuggets in free agency for nothing. No lost loss for McDyess or Nuggets. He only spent one season in Phoenix.

At least when the Suns traded Dragic to the Heat, they received two first round picks with one of the two first round picks being instrumental in trading for Mikal Bridges.

There was a lot more to what happened with Dice. During the period where no team could contact him, John Lucas who lived not too far away from him and was out of the league, started working on Dice and then presented him and Antonio as a package deal to Denver. Then, he and Issel conspired to keep the Suns from meeting with Dice by locking them out when they had every right to negotiate.

It was a crappy bit of business, but hey, it helped Issel short term and got the great manipulator John Lucas back into the game. He's considered a saint for his work with addicted players but I think he's scum and not just for this act.

Dragic was worth more than what we got for him. But yeah, it's probably unreasonable for me to hold him responsible for the stupid trades McD made in an effort to move away from Goran and IT.

 

[Mainstreet]

There was a lot more to what happened with Dice. During the period where no team could contact him, John Lucas who lived not too far away from him and was out of the league, started working on Dice and then presented him and Antonio as a package deal to Denver. Then, he and Issel conspired to keep the Suns from meeting with Dice by locking them out when they had every right to negotiate.

It was a crappy bit of business, but hey, it helped Issel short term and got the great manipulator John Lucas back into the game. He's considered a saint for his work with addicted players but I think he's scum and not just for this act.

Dragic was worth more than what we got for him. But yeah, it's probably unreasonable for me to hold him responsible for the stupid trades McD made in an effort to move away from Goran and IT.

I'm not going to dignify the situation with the long version. The bottom line the Suns were short-changed (using polite language) by McDyess and the Nuggets. I can better understand Dragic going to the Heat in retrospect. At least the Suns received value for him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not going to dignify the situation with the long version. The bottom line the Suns were short-changed (using polite language) by McDyess and the Nuggets. I can better understand Dragic going to the Heat in retrospect. At least the Suns received value for him.

How were they shortchanged by mcdyess?he had no control over being traded to the suns. He didn’t negotiate the assets they had to give up to get him. The suns knew they were trading for a player on his final year of a contract. I look at it this way:

1. The suns were foolish to trade for a player on a final year of his contract without assurances that he wanted to remain in az long term

2. The suns didn’t do a good enough job of convincing dice he was part of their family.

3. Lucas played a self-serving and dirty - but not illegal - hand

4. Van exel and nugz played a savvy hand to eliminating their competition

5. Dice was a naive guy and kinda got played by Lucas, the nugz and van exel. But difficult to blame a kid for going back to the org that “raised” him and teammates he knew and liked after only being with the suns for a year and apparently not feeling the love. He played his contract for the suns, as was his responsibility. He didn’t really owe the suns anything more than that.

Sucked for us fans as he and kids would’ve been a great pairing. Even worse was the rumor that suns were gearing up to add pippen to that group. Kidd-pippen-mcdyess would’ve been a fast athletic team.

 

[Mainstreet]

How were they shortchanged by mcdyess?he had no control over being traded to the suns. He didn’t negotiate the assets they had to give up to get him. The suns knew they were trading for a player on his final year of a contract. I look at it this way:

1. The suns were foolish to trade for a player on a final year of his contract without assurances that he wanted to remain in az long term

2. The suns didn’t do a good enough job of convincing dice he was part of their family.

3. Lucas played a self-serving and dirty - but not illegal - hand

4. Van exel and nugz played a savvy hand to eliminating their competition

5. Dice was a naive guy and kinda got played by Lucas, the nugz and van exel. But difficult to blame a kid for going back to the org that “raised” him and teammates he knew and liked after only being with the suns for a year and apparently not feeling the love. He played his contract for the suns, as was his responsibility. He didn’t really owe the suns anything more than that.

Sucked for us fans as he and kids would’ve been a great pairing. Even worse was the rumor that suns were gearing up to add pippen to that group. Kidd-pippen-mcdyess would’ve been a fast athletic team.

I'm talking about the Suns not getting a fair return for assets invested. McDyess was only with the Suns one season.

If you want to say that's part of the business well okay. However, it's hard to remember when the Suns were treated so poorly by another player and franchise.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm talking about the Suns not getting a fair return for assets invested. McDyess was only with the Suns one season.

If you want to say that's part of the business well okay. However, it's hard to remember when the Suns were treated so poorly by another player and franchise.

Again it’s not the players fault unless he lead them to believe he would resign with them prior to them trading for him. Absent that it was a bad gamble by the suns.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Again it’s not the players fault unless he lead them to believe he would resign with them prior to them trading for him. Absent that it was a bad gamble by the suns.

Well, we had a meeting scheduled with McDyess and Issel locked us out of the arena (IIRC) so we couldn't talk with him. That's not the way free agency is supposed to work. That's on Issel and Lucas, not on Dice but it still sucks.

As for it being a bad gamble, I don't really agree. I think it was a great risk to take, it just didn't work out. We had the advantage and lost it due to the strike/lockout.

I'm sure we had the assurance that Dice would re-sign, at least it felt that way all season. But with the work stoppage we lost our early access to him whereas Denver had second hand communication with him for several weeks before they should have.

 

[Covert Rain]

Payne has been so inconsistent this season. To me, the biggest thing with him as of late has been his decision making. He takes bad shots, he throws poor passes and we have seen many leads evaporate with him in there. Not sure what the deal is but he has been one of the guys super frustrating to watch that last month or so of the season.

 

[Mainstreet]

Again it’s not the players fault unless he lead them to believe he would resign with them prior to them trading for him. Absent that it was a bad gamble by the suns.

It's more about how the situation was handled by McDyess and the Nuggets. It was all so distasteful. Although technically no NBA rules were violated I think it was ethically wrong.

The Nuggets trade a player and are well compensated, then woo him back after one season. The whole situation was handled so gracelessly. It is an experience I'd like to forget.

For those who want to relive it, here is a link.

Remember when McDyess dumped Phx in blizzard?

In a strange, sordid affair Antonio McDyess is forced to choose between the Phoenix Suns and Denver Nuggets. He did not make it easy.

www.brightsideofthesun.com