If Kolb fails someone better be held accountable this offseason

[Krangodnzr]

Only issue is -- Whisenhunt has proven time and time again that he can't develop QB's.

Is this true? Or are the QBs sans Warner garbage? You and others act as if Hall, Anderson, etc just weren't developed. I say they sucked.

Someone picking players for this team is at fault. And not drafting ol for years has been a problem.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Bottom 10 in scoring the last two seasons despite 14 TDs from Defense and Special Teams is all the proof you need that the system has stopped working.

Or both the QBs are garbage.

 

[kerouac9]

Or both the QBs are garbage.

You love Whis. We get it. But do you really think that he has no input whatsoever on who his starting quarterback is? Do you think that Keim and Graves look at Whis and say, "Coach, why don't you go break down some film or something, we love this Max Hall kid."

Graves isn't the one putting Max Hall in the position to start. Graves isn't the only one okaying a trade for Kevin Kolb. If you're going to argue that the selections of the starting quarterback and offensive line are a problem, then you have to point the finger at all of the people who form the consensus on whom to take.

 

[Bodha]

Whoever is held accountable should get no less than a High-5.

What the heck are you talking about? As far as I know, future vision is yet a proven superpower that exists. I hated the Kolb trade, but loved the effort.



1. The Cardinals needed a QB. Less you wanted another year of Derek Anderson. Thats fine, thats fine, thats fine.

2. They did everything they could to go get one They felt could help us win.

3. It didnt workout.



Whats the issue here? You cant hate them for taking a shot and the guy failing. Thats life. Id do the Kolb trade 100x over rather than go back to the old penny-pincher Cardinals who were content being 3rd in the division every year. To win, you gotta gamble. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they dont, but you gotta live by them.

 

[john h]

The fans were all sold on Kolb by the coaching staff and FO. Despite red flags about Kolb the Cards went ahead and pulled the trigger to get Kolb. They paid him #1 coin, got rid of a 1st round pick and passed on a number of QBs in the 2011 draft. With the amount invested in this deal, it doesn't take a giant leap to think that a couple of key people's future with this organization should be tied to this deal.

If Kolb fails to win this starting job it should be a clear signal to the Bidwills that a competent GM talent should be brought in. I'm not in favor for firing Graves, I like him and think he's doing a much better job structuring contracts. Someone needs to come in and focus on getting talent and let Graves do contracts and let Whisenhunt coach.

There is something broken and dysfunctional with this team if they fail to have any sort of success while gambling so much on Kolb.

I don't think Whisenhunt should be fired, but if this team ends with miserable record and Kolb's a backup his seat better be getting very warm. A lot was sold to us with this Kolb deal and a lot of accountability better be held to these people who sold us on this deal.

The Cardinals better do all they can to keep Ray Horton with this organization, they may need him badly in 2014.

Kolb has already failed and we look sort of dumb. This is a transaction to remember as it has long lasting consequences. We may be 5 or more years in getting a QBOTF unless by some luck Skelton surprises us all. He is not totally out of the question just yet.

 

[Phrazbit]

Whoever is held accountable should get no less than a High-5.

What the heck are you talking about? As far as I know, future vision is yet a proven superpower that exists. I hated the Kolb trade, but loved the effort.



1. The Cardinals needed a QB. Less you wanted another year of Derek Anderson. Thats fine, thats fine, thats fine.

2. They did everything they could to go get one They felt could help us win.

3. It didnt workout.



Whats the issue here? You cant hate them for taking a shot and the guy failing. Thats life. Id do the Kolb trade 100x over rather than go back to the old penny-pincher Cardinals who were content being 3rd in the division every year. To win, you gotta gamble. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they dont, but you gotta live by them.

Being cheap and being dumb are separate things and neither are good. Avoiding Kolb would not have been the cheap move but the prudent one. The Cards have been spending near the cap for a few years now, its safe to assume that if we'd avoided Kolb then that money would have been spent somewhere.

I cant say "great job" about a move that was so poorly evaluated and has such damaging effects over several years. Their intentions might have been good but it does not forgive the stupidity.

 

[red desert]

I don't understand the impulse not to compare players across the league right now. Whether or not Terry Bradshaw could win Super Bowls in the 70s is irrelevant. Whether Troy Aikman could win Super Bowls in the 90s is irrelevant. Put Troy Aikman in his prime in today's league and I think he's Matt Ryan. Matt Ryan is a perfectly fine player, but he's not a Hall of Famer.

I think you can make an argument that an improved John Skelton is capable of winning the NFC West a majority of the time over the next five years, say. I think that he's a quarterback capable of leading a team to 9- and 10-win seasons.

But if John Skelton's potential is maxed out, I still think that's what he's capable of. I think he's able to be Matt Cassel. Is Matt Cassel going to win someone a Super Bowl? I think he can be a starter for a Super Bowl-winning team, but I'm not sure he's going to win someone a Super Bowl the way that Tom Brady or Drew Brees could.

I'm on the John Skelton 2012 bandwagon and have been. But unless you're going to invest resources on the offensive line and shift the offensive focus to the running game, I don't think that you are going to have sustained success with John Skelton.

In order to have sustained success with John Skelton, you have to change the coaching staff around him--the philosophical orientation of the offense. If you think the philosophical orientation of the offense has more potential than John Skelton, then you suffer through a 6-10 2012 and trade up to get Tyler Wilson in the 2013 NFL draft.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[red desert]

I thnk he meant the game has changed. PI rules, Hart played with one of the best OL's of all time I think he got sacked 5 times one season(or was it 8?). Offense was totally different we routinely played 2 backs, 3 WR's wasn't that common.

Hart didn't play in a system that essentially guaranteed the QB would be hit alot and had to make quick decisions and accurate throws to punish teams for bringing the pressure.

I loved Hart but I don't think he'd succeed in Whiz' offense.

5 I think.

 

[Bodha]

Being cheap and being dumb are separate things and neither are good. Avoiding Kolb would not have been the cheap move but the prudent one. The Cards have been spending near the cap for a few years now, its safe to assume that if we'd avoided Kolb then that money would have been spent somewhere.

I cant say "great job" about a move that was so poorly evaluated and has such damaging effects over several years. Their intentions might have been good but it does not forgive the stupidity.

Hows it being dumb? 2 years later it was dumb, captain hindsight, but at the time, he was the best option available.

you act like this is specific to the Cardinals. All teams do this. The Seahawks paid Flynn after he had basically 1 good game to his credit. The Chiefs did the same with Cassel (although hed had a little bit longer resume). Hey, Cassel sucks now. Odds are, Flynn wont be worth his paycheck either. It happens.

The Saints paid up for Brees, who was just coming off a severe, oft-career ending injury for QBs. Was a major gamble. Paid off.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hows it being dumb? 2 years later it was dumb, captain hindsight, but at the time, he was the best option available.

you can't call Phrazbit "Captain Hindsight" when he was saying all this 2 years ago. That's called Captain Foresight... which is something you're Coaches/GM are paid to have and the consistently good teams DO HAVE.

you act like this is specific to the Cardinals. All teams do this. The Seahawks paid Flynn after he had basically 1 good game to his credit. The Chiefs did the same with Cassel (although hed had a little bit longer resume). Hey, Cassel sucks now. Odds are, Flynn wont be worth his paycheck either. It happens.

problem is when it happens repeatedly, people should lose their jobs. it's really that simple.

 

[kerouac9]

Hows it being dumb? 2 years later it was dumb, captain hindsight, but at the time, he was the best option available.

you act like this is specific to the Cardinals. All teams do this. The Seahawks paid Flynn after he had basically 1 good game to his credit. The Chiefs did the same with Cassel (although hed had a little bit longer resume). Hey, Cassel sucks now. Odds are, Flynn wont be worth his paycheck either. It happens.

The Saints paid up for Brees, who was just coming off a severe, oft-career ending injury for QBs. Was a major gamble. Paid off.

The Seahawks paid Flynn about a third of what the Cards paid Kolb. The Chiefs won an AFC West title with Cassel. I don't remember the Saints breaking the bank for Brees on his first contract with the team, but they paid him incredible amounts of money on his second contract when he succeeded. That first contract wasn't a major gamble, because they weren't financially committed to him the way the Cards now are with Kolb.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Only issue is -- Whisenhunt has proven time and time again that he can't develop QB's.

There's nothing for him to develop but again he had a hand in that being our unfortunate situation. I think Whiz should stay since we did go 8-8 last year with our dreadful QB situation but it's gotta get fixed and fixed soon.

And K9 per usual is playing up the doomsday scenario when we inevitably cut Kolb, his cap hit won't be the difference between us making or missing the playoffs or anything.

 

[kerouac9]

There's nothing for him to develop but again he had a hand in that being our unfortunate situation. I think Whiz should stay since we did go 8-8 last year with our dreadful QB situation but it's gotta get fixed and fixed soon.

And K9 per usual is playing up the doomsday scenario when we inevitably cut Kolb, his cap hit won't be the difference between us making or missing the playoffs or anything.

I don't know about playing anything up. I'm just mentioning the possibility. If he's on the roster, by virtue of his getting paid some 18 times what Skelton is getting paid, there's going to be some distraction.

I think Whis should stay, as well. The three people on this staff I believe in are Whis, Keim, and Horton. I was wrong about Horton inasmuch as I might have said that there's no way he was going to succeed (I don't know if I said that--I think I said that it might take a little while).

I have no problem committing to Whis this year, and even next year if the team goes 5-11. I really don't have a problem giving Tyler Wilson over to Whis (a player I believe to be legitimately talented) and seeing if he can do something with legitimate NFL talent. My question is whether he really believes that we need to invest in the QB position and burn bridges from alternatives in order to be successful.

I was pointedly not on the "Fire Whis Now" bandwagon in the middle of last year. Acquiring Kolb was a mistake, but it's not a fatal one. I'd be encouraged if the staff decided to run an offense that hid the liability under center instead of doubled down on it.

 

[Shane]

I don't know about playing anything up. I'm just mentioning the possibility. If he's on the roster, by virtue of his getting paid some 18 times what Skelton is getting paid, there's going to be some distraction.

I think Whis should stay, as well. The three people on this staff I believe in are Whis, Keim, and Horton. I was wrong about Horton inasmuch as I might have said that there's no way he was going to succeed (I don't know if I said that--I think I said that it might take a little while).

I have no problem committing to Whis this year, and even next year if the team goes 5-11. I really don't have a problem giving Tyler Wilson over to Whis (a player I believe to be legitimately talented) and seeing if he can do something with legitimate NFL talent. My question is whether he really believes that we need to invest in the QB position and burn bridges from alternatives in order to be successful.

I was pointedly not on the "Fire Whis Now" bandwagon in the middle of last year. Acquiring Kolb was a mistake, but it's not a fatal one. I'd be encouraged if the staff decided to run an offense that hid the liability under center instead of doubled down on it.

Nice post!

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Is this true? Or are the QBs sans Warner garbage? You and others act as if Hall, Anderson, etc just weren't developed. I say they sucked.

Someone picking players for this team is at fault. And not drafting ol for years has been a problem.

It's impossible to say that Whisenhunt "hand-picked" all the QB's recently, but he's certainly one of the main authorities in their development/playing. So, lets go through the carousel:
Anderson went to the Pro Bowl while playing for the Browns, with Whisenhunt, he looked like a HS QB

Max Hall was just terrible all around, but Whis drafted him and developed him into mediocrity; coincidence?

Kevin Kolb was widely regarded as being a player right on the cusp of "Franchise QB" -- Whis obviously had to approve the player in order to be signed, yet he was unwilling to change anything in the offense to suit Kolb's strengths -- seems more like Whisenhunt's offense is suited to Kolb's weaknesses. Now Kolb looks like Derek Anderson who couldn't even be traded for free. You can't develop QB's if you don't adjust -- fact.

John Skelton had low expectations with high upside. He has made minor improvements, but nothing significant has changed in 2+ years with Whis.

Whis has had too many trial and error's to overlook. If you're an NFL HC and you were given 5 QB's to develop, and not one of them even made it to average, then you're in the wrong profession.

 

[Phrazbit]

Hows it being dumb? 2 years later it was dumb, captain hindsight, but at the time, he was the best option available.

you act like this is specific to the Cardinals. All teams do this. The Seahawks paid Flynn after he had basically 1 good game to his credit. The Chiefs did the same with Cassel (although hed had a little bit longer resume). Hey, Cassel sucks now. Odds are, Flynn wont be worth his paycheck either. It happens.

The Saints paid up for Brees, who was just coming off a severe, oft-career ending injury for QBs. Was a major gamble. Paid off.

There are those who hated the trade at the time too... and him being the best option is obviously debatable. Even your examples, Flynn actually had 2 big games (same amount Kolb had), and cost the Seahawks beans compared to what the Cards paid. Cassell played solid for a full year and cost KC less. Brees, again, a free agent signing, cost the Saints far less, who was coming off a very bad injury, but also clearly had a lot of talent.

The Cardinals made a trade out of desperation, and its their own fault there were so desperate. I cant give them a pat on the back for furthering their misery, even if they had good intentions.

 

[Bodha]

There are those who hated the trade at the time too... and him being the best option is obviously debatable. Even your examples, Flynn actually had 2 big games (same amount Kolb had), and cost the Seahawks beans compared to what the Cards paid. Cassell played solid for a full year and cost KC less. Brees, again, a free agent signing, cost the Saints far less, who was coming off a very bad injury, but also clearly had a lot of talent.

The Cardinals made a trade out of desperation, and its their own fault there were so desperate. I cant give them a pat on the back for furthering their misery, even if they had good intentions.

So your entire issue is the trade, not Kolb himself?

Good grief dude, get over it. Had he panned out, it wouldnt even be an issue, so obviously it wasnt THAT terrible.

The money - Its not your cash. Who the heck cares?
DRC - Hurt a little, but the dudes often more harm than good.
2nd rounder - Probably the only part of the trade that bugged me. I love 2nd rounders.

Its not like we shelled out 3 future 1st rounders, like alot of teams do nowadays.

 

[Phrazbit]

So your entire issue is the trade, not Kolb himself?

Good grief dude, get over it. Had he panned out, it wouldnt even be an issue, so obviously it wasnt THAT terrible.

The money - Its not your cash. Who the heck cares?
DRC - Hurt a little, but the dudes often more harm than good.
2nd rounder - Probably the only part of the trade that bugged me. I love 2nd rounders.

Its not like we shelled out 3 future 1st rounders, like alot of teams do nowadays.

No... it was a bad trade because Kolb is a bad player. I didnt like the idea of getting Kolb, I didnt like the trade to get Kolb. The biggest cost of the trade is more wasted seasons at the QB position.

 

[kerouac9]

So your entire issue is the trade, not Kolb himself?

Good grief dude, get over it. Had he panned out, it wouldnt even be an issue, so obviously it wasnt THAT terrible.

The money - Its not your cash. Who the heck cares?
DRC - Hurt a little, but the dudes often more harm than good.
2nd rounder - Probably the only part of the trade that bugged me. I love 2nd rounders.

Its not like we shelled out 3 future 1st rounders, like alot of teams do nowadays.

But he didn't pan out, and so it is an issue. It was an issue in the pursuit of Peyton Manning, and it remains an issue because we still don't have a starting quarterback.

 

[Shane]

But he didn't pan out, and so it is an issue. It was an issue in the pursuit of Peyton Manning, and it remains an issue because we still don't have a starting quarterback.

We absolutely have a starting QB.

 

[az1965]

The question is who the hell in the organization evaluated him and why did they not see similar problems??????? And I don't buy the system crap since he has fundamental problems.

 

[Absolute Zero]

I agree with the thread title. Fire the whole offensive line and the staff that put them together. The Oline is horrendous and the whole league knows it.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't know about playing anything up. I'm just mentioning the possibility. If he's on the roster, by virtue of his getting paid some 18 times what Skelton is getting paid, there's going to be some distraction.

I think Whis should stay, as well. The three people on this staff I believe in are Whis, Keim, and Horton. I was wrong about Horton inasmuch as I might have said that there's no way he was going to succeed (I don't know if I said that--I think I said that it might take a little while).

I have no problem committing to Whis this year, and even next year if the team goes 5-11. I really don't have a problem giving Tyler Wilson over to Whis (a player I believe to be legitimately talented) and seeing if he can do something with legitimate NFL talent. My question is whether he really believes that we need to invest in the QB position and burn bridges from alternatives in order to be successful.

I was pointedly not on the "Fire Whis Now" bandwagon in the middle of last year. Acquiring Kolb was a mistake, but it's not a fatal one. I'd be encouraged if the staff decided to run an offense that hid the liability under center instead of doubled down on it.

I'm with you, where we diverge is that I think Kolb was worth the risk.

 

[Bodha]

No... it was a bad trade because Kolb is a bad player. I didnt like the idea of getting Kolb, I didnt like the trade to get Kolb. The biggest cost of the trade is more wasted seasons at the QB position.

But he didn't pan out, and so it is an issue. It was an issue in the pursuit of Peyton Manning, and it remains an issue because we still don't have a starting quarterback.

Everything you guys are complaining about are after the fact. Nothing but hindsight gripes.




Had we got Peyton, and his nerves were all screwed up and he couldnt play, youd be complaining about pursuing him too.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

. The biggest cost of the trade is more wasted seasons at the QB position.

There would have been wasted season at QB if we didn't acquire Kolb. None of the QB's that were available at the time have played at a high level. To assume they would have come in and played well in Arizona is a pretty big leap. For example, just because you thought Matt Hasselback(using him as a random QB example) would have been a better fit doesn't mean he would have. And, he may have had zero interest of playing in Arizona. Kolb was interested in Arizona, the Cards were interested in him, and he was generally considered the best QB available. It was a good move at the time.