Dirty or smart basketball...

CardNots

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Dirty or smart basketball...

I have to admire the way the Spurs play their basketball.

Here are some things I've noticed during the last two games:

When SA needs a break, they kick the bounce pass leading to side out and a lengthly blow for their players.

Almost every shooter first leans into the defender initiating contact and creating space for the shot. Then falls backward for the shot.
Most times they make the basket and draw the foul.

I have never seen a team use flopping as a basketball strategy. I seen certain guys do it, but never on a team wide basis.

What about using your body and arms as Parker did by driving the lane dishing off to Duncan behind him then putting his arms out and wrapping up Hunter and Amare? Just a great play. Reminds me of football...

No, I don't like they way they play their basketball but this team is just toying with us.

Are they a better team? With Joe Johnson in the fold I would say no.

Are they a smarter more seasoned team? No question.

Have I given up, no way...
 
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jibikao

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Smart basketball. Because the refs are buying it.

That's how you win a championship.

Our "no foul, no flop" won't work.
 

jbeecham

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Yeah, our whole strategy of trying to play BASKETBALL is really screwing us over. Our guys should take some acting classes and Rugby lessons this summer so that they can play "playoff" basketfootball.
 

Cheesebeef

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jbeecham said:
Yeah, our whole strategy of trying to play BASKETBALL is really screwing us over. Our guys should take some acting classes and Rugby lessons this summer so that they can play "playoff" basketfootball.

gviing up layups, wideopen threes and letting a team score on 12 of it's last 13 possessions isn't basketball - it's called being a matador. Until we learn how to play defense - we ain't winning squat.
 

Djaughe

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cheesebeef said:
gviing up layups, wideopen threes and letting a team score on 12 of it's last 13 possessions isn't basketball - it's called being a matador. Until we learn how to play defense - we ain't winning squat.

Olay!
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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CardNots said:
What about using your body and arms as Parker did by driving the lane dishing off to Duncan behind him then putting his arms out and wrapping up Hunter and Amare? Just a great play. Reminds me of football...

though i won't complain about it, this play had me incredulous. it was amazing that it wasn't called. parker just bear hugged everyone in front of him.
 

Joe Mama

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Okay, I watched the game earlier this afternoon. I tried as hard as I could to stay objective with regards to the officiating. I think I did a pretty good job. I would like to see what a San Antonio Spurs fan could come up with though. It would probably be fun to argue the calls.

Here you go...

FIRST QUARTER:

9:23 - Shawn Marion gets good defensive position outside the circle and takes a dropped shoulder from Mohammed. Marian goes to the floor and Mohamed makes the shot. Bill Walton and his cohort call it a flop, but that's absolutely ridiculous. it's clearly an offensive foul.
+2

9:14 - it looks like Jim Jackson fouled Tony Parker on a fast break layup. The San Antonio Spurs get the ball back, but they don't score.
-2 free throws

SECOND QUARTER:

8:50 - Mohamed goes to the ground after having his shot blocked and grabs Hunter by the ankles. Should have been another foul on Mohamed. San Antonio did not score though. With all the action it's hard to blame the refs for this one. I didn't see it until the TV crew showed it from an overhead camera.

2:22 - Shawn Marion blocks Tim Duncan going to the basket. He got nothing but ball. It looks like if not for the whistle it would have been rebounded by Hunter. Duncan made both of the free throws.
+2

:01 - Tim Duncan is called for his third foul. He clearly pushed Richardson, but he was being held by both Nash and Richardson going for the rebound. I would say this is another one like Mohamed's ankle grabbing. You would never see it if it wasn't shown on the right camera angle on a replay. The foul that was called on Duncan was obvious. for the record Q made only one free throw(typical).

THIRD QUARTER:

9:43 - Parker travels going to the basket on the fast break. He picked up his drivel at the top of the key and made it all the way to the basket. I'm only counting obvious travels. I'm sure if we looked really hard we could find them all over the place. This one was easy to spot.
+2

9:24 - Ginobilli goes to the line after driving to the basket. The foul was called on Jim Jackson. Kind of funny. They both fouled each other in the face. It easily could have been called an offensive foul. If you slow down the play it is obvious that it was actually Ginobilli fouling Jim Jackson that caused Jim Jackson to hit Ginobilli. This would be another tough one for the officials to call. since I didn't give any points to San Antonio for the last one I'll call this one even as well. For the record Ginobilli made to both of the free throws.

8:14 - Tim Duncan picks up his fourth foul one Amare goes to the basket on a pick and roll. It was a foul. However you would expect a little more contact allowed before a superstar like Tim Duncan picks up his fourth foul. San Antonio fans might disagree but I'm calling it even. Tim Duncan was not stationary. There was body contact (he had one hand on Amare's waste pushing him) and he got him on the arm as well. in fact Bill Walton showed how he fouled him twice on the replay.

6:34 - Nash draws an offensive foul on Parker. It's not a bad call, but anybody complaining about flopping should look at this because Nash clearly exaggerates the contact.

5:19 - again Parker clearly travels going to the basket on the fast break. He tried to stop to let Amare go by him and he shuffles his feet. Bill Walton blames it on a wet floor, but he didn't slide at all. He shuffled his feet and got away with an obvious travel.
+2

5:06 - Parker hacks down across both of Steve Nash's arms as Nash goes to the basket. There is no whistle. The result is a turnover when he should have been going to the line.
+2 free throws

1:25 - Nash runs the pick and roll with Amare. When he tries to bounce the ball back to Amare Brent Barry kicks it. I saw this last night, and I couldn't believe it wasn't called. It was one of the most obvious missed calls in the game. San Antonio did not score on the following possession. They ran about 30 seconds off the clock.

FOURTH QUARTER:

6:02 - Parker clearly travels again when he tries to stop at the basket. He throws the ball out to the left side, and Jim Jackson get out hustled by Brent Barry. As he's going out of bound, Barry throws the ball underneath the basket to Parker who gets the layup.
+2

4:22 - this is the infamous technical call on Amare Stoudemire. The technical was okay, but Horry did a nice acting job. Instead of two free throws the Phoenix Suns had to take the ball out of bounds at the side. The good thing about this is that Tim Duncan picked up his fifth foul by reaching in on Steve Nash. Whoever said this was a weak call for a makeup call was just wrong. It was a clear-cut foul. He reached across Nash and hit him on the body and the arm. Duncan even knew it was a foul.

4:05 - Amare picks up his third foul on the possession after Duncan's fifth. It's an offensive foul when he lowers his shoulder into Horry. It's a good call even though the fans don't like it.

3:49 - Hunter is whistled for fouling Duncan. They didn't show it on replay, but I couldn't see the foul when I slowed it down. it was a clean block. Tim Duncan made both of the free throws
+2



As Mike mentioned in another thread Nash gets away with carrying several times each game. Manu did the same. In fact before that great behind the back move he did it pretty badly twice.

I didn't realize until just now how many missed calls I have that went against Phoenix and how few I have that went against San Antonio. I really did try to watch both ends of the court closely and stay objective about it. Each of these plays I watched several times in slow motion just to make sure I was right.

This means I had the referees costing the Phoenix Suns a total of 12 points. Of course I would like to see what a San Antonio fan would say. :) I really didn't see all of this dirty play and grabbing though. Certainly San Antonio wasn't doing it any more than the Phoenix Suns were.

Joe Mama
 
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Billythekid

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There's a few problems i see.

Mike D's stragety of NOT fouling, plays right into the hands of the Spurs. They know when they drive, they'll be minimal contact, thus the amount of open lanes and easy layins. With the thin bench, it's hard to question D'Antoni for that approach, but in the playoffs you have to get physical or else you'll get abused. I saw a few times Ginobolli or Parker had open layups and Amare looked to go for the block but didn't, then headed back up court on offense. Our focus is too much on the offensive end, the attitude of, Fine let em score, we'll score down our end... and more often, ain't going to cut it against the versatile spurs. We need to contest EVERYTHING!

I still think we can win a game, afterall, we've played better on the road, against the Grizz, we dominated them in their house, and against Dallas we took 2 of 3 road games.

Have hope... The Suns lost the first two homes games of the WCF then won games 3 and 4 against San Antonio on the road... in my season of NBA 2k5. :shrug:
 

jibikao

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I think D'Antoni's "no foul" strategy's gotta go against the Spurs now.

They already sealed our fast break points so Nash has to walk up there most of the time anyway.


Billythekid is totally right. If we are more physical on the Spurs, maybe the refs won't call that many on us? I say just HACK the damn ball when they drive in. I just watched Heat VS Pistons...my god, in half court set, I couldn't recall ANY penetration without getting slapped/hacked. You either hold to your ball or you don't! That's how physical the game was. And who knows.. . we may get a lot of calls against us early on but the refs are known to make up the calls. Spurs will get some fouls against them as well. We just need to be more physical and dirty. Our littel guys should hold on the big guys too. I mean why not... lol If they call a foul, fine, if not, good for us.


Maybe D'Antoni should show them what Sonics did to Parker/Manu. The big guys showed why Parker should not drive in. Sure, he may get 2 foul shots but it's better than giving up 2 pt for Parker and give him the confidence to get into the lane.


We just need to change our strategy a bit to win Spurs. Right now, we are playing their games. They KNEW we are soft so they can just penetrate our lane like a Virgin. We refused to step up and only extended our hands. We just need to move our feet faster. Take charge, or whatever... just dont let them lay in the ball that easily.
 
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Chaz

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I don't think we have to tell them to foul. They have to defend the rim and be aggressive. Make a play for the ball even if you might foul.

Especially at the end of games. That is why you don't want fouls earlier. You want to have a few left for when you need them. Two FT sometimes beats a layup.

I hope the Suns are learning. I think I see some progression.

With JJ back the Suns will hopefully be as potent as ever offensively. With the way Nash and Stoudemire have been able to run the pick and roll the Suns may force the Spurs to score 120 every night to win.

I say lets just put the pedal to the floor and see if they can keep up for the next two games.
 

ASUCHRIS

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Joe Mama said:
Okay, I watched the game earlier this afternoon. I tried as hard as I could to stay objective with regards to the officiating. I think I did a pretty good job. I would like to see what a San Antonio Spurs fan could come up with though. It would probably be fun to argue the calls.

Here you go...

FIRST QUARTER:

9:23 - Shawn Marion gets good defensive position outside the circle and takes a dropped shoulder from Mohammed. Marian goes to the floor and Mohamed makes the shot. Bill Walton and his cohort call it a flop, but that's absolutely ridiculous. it's clearly an offensive foul.
+2

9:14 - it looks like Jim Jackson fouled Tony Parker on a fast break layup. The San Antonio Spurs get the ball back, but they don't score.
-2 free throws

SECOND QUARTER:

8:50 - Mohamed goes to the ground after having his shot blocked and grabs Hunter by the ankles. Should have been another foul on Mohamed. San Antonio did not score though. With all the action it's hard to blame the refs for this one. I didn't see it until the TV crew showed it from an overhead camera.

2:22 - Shawn Marion blocks Tim Duncan going to the basket. He got nothing but ball. It looks like if not for the whistle it would have been rebounded by Hunter. Duncan made both of the free throws.
+2

:01 - Tim Duncan is called for his third foul. He clearly pushed Richardson, but he was being held by both Nash and Richardson going for the rebound. I would say this is another one like Mohamed's ankle grabbing. You would never see it if it wasn't shown on the right camera angle on a replay. The foul that was called on Duncan was obvious. for the record Q made only one free throw(typical).

THIRD QUARTER:

9:43 - Parker travels going to the basket on the fast break. He picked up his drivel at the top of the key and made it all the way to the basket. I'm only counting obvious travels. I'm sure if we looked really hard we could find them all over the place. This one was easy to spot.
+2

9:24 - Ginobilli goes to the line after driving to the basket. The foul was called on Jim Jackson. Kind of funny. They both fouled each other in the face. It easily could have been called an offensive foul. If you slow down the play it is obvious that it was actually Ginobilli fouling Jim Jackson that caused Jim Jackson to hit Ginobilli. This would be another tough one for the officials to call. since I didn't give any points to San Antonio for the last one I'll call this one even as well. For the record Ginobilli made to both of the free throws.

8:14 - Tim Duncan picks up his fourth foul one Amare goes to the basket on a pick and roll. It was a foul. However you would expect a little more contact allowed before a superstar like Tim Duncan picks up his fourth foul. San Antonio fans might disagree but I'm calling it even. Tim Duncan was not stationary. There was body contact (he had one hand on Amare's waste pushing him) and he got him on the arm as well. Infected Dole need and showed how he fouled him twice.

6:34 - Nash draws an offensive foul on Parker. It's not a bad call, but anybody complaining about flopping should look at this because Nash clearly exaggerates the contact.

5:19 - again Parker clearly travels going to the basket on the fast break. He tried to stop to let Amare go by him and he shuffles his feet. Bill Walton blames it on a wet floor, but he didn't slide at all. He shuffled his feet and got away with an obvious travel.
+2

5:06 - Parker hacks down across both of Steve Nash's arms as Nash goes to the basket. There is no whistle. The result is a turnover when he should have been going to the line.
+2 free throws

1:25 - Nash runs the pick and roll with Amare. When he tries to bounce the ball back to Amare Brent Barry kicks it. I saw this last night, and I couldn't believe it wasn't called. It was one of the most obvious missed calls in the game. San Antonio did not score on the following possession. They ran about 30 seconds off the clock.

FOURTH QUARTER:

6:02 - Parker clearly travels again when he tries to stop at the basket. He throws the ball out to the left side, and Jim Jackson get out hustled by Brent Barry. As he's going out of bound, Barry throws the ball underneath the basket to Parker who gets the layup.
+2

4:22 - this is the infamous technical call on Amare Stoudemire. The technical was okay, but Horry did a nice acting job. Instead of two free throws the Phoenix Suns had to take the ball out of bounds at the side. The good thing about this is that Tim Duncan picked up his fifth foul by reaching in on Steve Nash. Whoever said this was a weak call for a makeup call was just wrong. It was a clear-cut foul. He reached across Nash and hit him on the body and the arm. Duncan even knew it was a foul.

4:05 - Amare picks up his third foul on the possession after Duncan's fifth. It's an offensive foul when he lowers his shoulder into Horry. It's a good call even though the fans don't like it.

3:49 - Hunter is whistled for fouling Duncan. They didn't show it on replay, but I couldn't see the foul when I slowed it down. it was a clean block. Tim Duncan made both of the free throws
+2



As Mike mentioned in another thread Nash gets away with carrying several times each game. Manu did the same. In fact before that great behind the back move he did it pretty badly twice.

I didn't realize until just now how many missed calls I have that went against Phoenix and how few I have that went against San Antonio. I really did try to watch both ends of the court closely and stay objective about it. Each of these plays I watched several times in slow motion just to make sure I was right.

This means I had the referees costing the Phoenix Suns a total of 12 points. Of course I would like to see what a San Antonio fan would say. :) I really didn't see all of this dirty play and grabbing though. Certainly San Antonio wasn't doing it any more than the Phoenix Suns were.

Joe Mama

I would tend to agree with your analysis, by the end of the game, it seemed the Spurs were hacking down and handchecking as much as possible, almost daring the refs to call them.
 

Joe Mama

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ASUCHRIS said:
I would tend to agree with your analysis, by the end of the game, it seemed the Spurs were hacking down and handchecking as much as possible, almost daring the refs to call them.

San Antonio was hacking down at the ball, but so were the Phoenix Suns. I think I only found one store twice where I thought San Antonio got away with obvious fouls by doing that. There was one time in the first quarter I'm sure Jimmy Jackson got away with one on Tony Parker.

It goes both ways.

Joe Mama
 

jibikao

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I agree that when the game is tight, it seems like you can get away with a lot of handchecking and hacking. Maybe that's when we should do that? I mean it's always our last 2-3mins melt down in the previous 2 games.

I really don't expect Spurs to shoot that well..but one can hope.
 

tobiazz

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Thanks for putting in the work for this analysis Joe :thumbup: . I would love to do the same if I had some time on my hands.
 
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