Devin Booker - What is being said

leclerc

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Okay my bad taking Joe Johnson as an example. I thought he had played a few years in Boston before we got him.
 

Chaplin

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Joe Johnson was a rookie. Archie has been with this team two full years. Isn't this his third summer league? Can't see the comparison. Archie has had plenty of time. I am not advocating getting rid of him, but I do not have alot of high hopes for him based upon his absolute lack of improvement.

+1

He has shown nothing that would make me think he'll be anything more than a role player out of the league in a year. This isn't a center, who takes a few years to develop, after all.
 

Chaz

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Joe Johnson was a rookie. Archie has been with this team two full years. Isn't this his third summer league? Can't see the comparison. Archie has had plenty of time. I am not advocating getting rid of him, but I do not have alot of high hopes for him based upon his absolute lack of improvement.
Well he wasn't a rookie he was a 2 year player in 2003 and he was also a top 10 pick.

Despite Archie not playing all that well he is still putting up 20 points pretty easily.
 

JCSunsfan

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Well he wasn't a rookie he was a 2 year player in 2003 and he was also a top 10 pick.

Despite Archie not playing all that well he is still putting up 20 points pretty easily.

I am not sure what you are talking about. Boston traded JJ to Phoenix half way through his rookie year.

Boston did not give him a full season.
 

jandaman

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McD likes Goodwin's potential and thats all that matters.
The armchair GMs here with limited scouting skills as well as no-behind the scene information on Goodwin dont matter.
 

Mainstreet

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Joe Johnson was oozing with untapped talent when he arrived from Boston. It was obvious he would be a player with time at least that was my opinion. He could play inside and outside due to his physique. He had those moments where one could see his future and it was bright. About the only one who was unsure about JJ was Robert Sarver and perhaps a few posters who tried to convince themselves he needed to prove himself more. JJ should have been given an extension and it cost the Suns big time.

In regard to Archie Goodwin, he is a player that will need more time to develop. He is not the physical specimen JJ was. I see the talent but Archie needs to mature physically and mentally. However, I do not see why Archie cannot take the next step. He can hit FTs at a modest rate so I see no reason why he cannot continue to improve his outside shot. IMO, Archie will take the next step within the next couple of seasons. I want him in a Suns uniform when he does.
 

Chaz

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I am not sure what you are talking about. Boston traded JJ to Phoenix half way through his rookie year.

Boston did not give him a full season.
I was talking about Suns fans lamenting Joe's seeming lack of progress after two years. He showed flashes at the end of his second year but he didn't really earn a lot of minutes until his 3rd year and didn't really live up to his potential shooting the ball until Nash arrived in his 4th season.
 

Errntknght

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He has shown nothing that would make me think he'll be anything more than a role player out of the league in a year. This isn't a center, who takes a few years to develop, after all.

Archie is going to be a good player is the league yet, but I have my doubts about it happening while he's on the Suns. He just doesn't seem to ever fit in - whenever it appears like he's on the verge of having a somewhat defined role, Jeff changes his mind. I don't think Archie would have been thrilled about it but he should have spent last season with the Jam, where he would have had a consistent role. The first year he was so young I thought it made sense to keep his close at hand but last year he needed to play. Ennis should have down there with him, have someone Archie could develop some basketball chemistry with. (I can't resist saying that we should have kept Ennis so we wouldn't have to be beating the bushes for someone who can play PG now.)

I also have my doubts about TJ finding a role on this team unless he starts. I just don't see Bledsoe and Knight working at getting him the ball where he needs it to do his thing if he's a sub. I'm not entirely convinced they will if he's a starter but at least he has a chance.
 

Phrazbit

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The problem with Archie and him getting a defined roll is that he does not have the skill set to play any specific role. He can't shoot well enough to trust on the wing, his decision making and ball handling are terrible so you can't trust him on the ball either. And he gambles waaaaaaaaaay too much defensively. He can get away with that in the Summer League but real NBA players are going to burn him on those dumb swipes 9 times out of 10.

He plays totally out of control, at about 150 mph. Against sub par talent in the Summer League and the D-League he can look great, because they don't have the speed to stop him but in the NBA he just looks like a maniac with no feel for the game.

They keep letting him play at PG and handle the ball but I just don't see it. IMO thats what he is worst at. He has zero court vision, he gets the ball and his only thought it to barrel into the rim, a guy like that needs to be on the wing, even if he can't shoot.

I'm not worried about TJ's role though. I think coming off the bench will be good for him and there is a lot better odds of him getting touches and into a flow as offense off the bench than if he was starting along side Bledsoe, Knight and (presumably) Kieff who would absorb a lot more of the opportunities than the substitutes will.
 

Mainstreet

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I was down on Tyler Ennis after watching him play for the Suns because he kept reminding me of Kendall Marshall. He lacked the type of athleticism and outside shot I wanted from a PG. I guess my opinion of Kendall Marshall helped taint my opinion of Tyler Ennis. However, Tyler Ennis may yet develop because he is still so young at age 20.
 

Sci Fi

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My point is that we can afford to wait and keep developing Goodwin if he continues to be patient and work hard. It's stupid to get rid of young talent too soon without good reason. He might yet turn out great.

I think we have a good two guard rotation with our two starting combo guards, Archie, Weems and Booker. Should replace McNeal and Ronnie Price with a small classic PG that can shoot open 3s and just bring the ball up.

One problem I have though is with his stance. His feet are too close together when he shoots so he does not get proper balance. They should square up with his shoulders. Jeff or jumpshot #8 should have pointed this out by now...

Goodwin's problem with shooting is in his wrist. It's why I said he would never be an NBA player after watching him for 2 games (maybe 20 minutes). Very likely unfixable (especially given his mentality). His fingers feel is also terrible. Watch how the ball flys in every direction. Great shooting is in the hands mostly. Forearms down. It's an athletic ability as hard to change as any other but people always say "If he ever develops a jumpshot." It's almost like saying, "When he learns how to jump like Jordan."
 

Sci Fi

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As to Booker, Suns should be EXTREMELY happy with Booker. The blind squirrel found an acorn.
 

iRobot

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Goodwin's problem with shooting is in his wrist. It's why I said he would never be an NBA player after watching him for 2 games (maybe 20 minutes). Very likely unfixable (especially given his mentality). His fingers feel is also terrible. Watch how the ball flys in every direction. Great shooting is in the hands mostly. Forearms down. It's an athletic ability as hard to change as any other but people always say "If he ever develops a jumpshot." It's almost like saying, "When he learns how to jump like Jordan."

Have you watched Summer League? Goodwin has developed a shot and has got a lot better at it. I used to think he was awful but man it's night and day difference.
 

Sci Fi

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Have you watched Summer League? Goodwin has developed a shot and has got a lot better at it. I used to think he was awful but man it's night and day difference.

I watched the first game. His shot is essentially the same. Watch his wrist closely and you will see the problem. He'll improve. Even the worst form gets better. Not enough, IMO.
 

JCSunsfan

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Have you watched Summer League? Goodwin has developed a shot and has got a lot better at it. I used to think he was awful but man it's night and day difference.

Umm. His three point shot in summer league is ugly. He catches, reaches out and down to nearly his knee level as he slowly collects himself to shoot the three. I don't know who taught him that form, but it is useless unless he is so wide open no one even has time to take a run at him.
 

Errntknght

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The problem with Archie and him getting a defined roll is that he does not have the skill set to play any specific role. He can't shoot well enough to trust on the wing, his decision making and ball handling are terrible so you can't trust him on the ball either. And he gambles waaaaaaaaaay too much defensively. He can get away with that in the Summer League but real NBA players are going to burn him on those dumb swipes 9 times out of 10.

He plays totally out of control, at about 150 mph. Against sub par talent in the Summer League and the D-League he can look great, because they don't have the speed to stop him but in the NBA he just looks like a maniac with no feel for the game.

They keep letting him play at PG and handle the ball but I just don't see it. IMO thats what he is worst at. He has zero court vision, he gets the ball and his only thought it to barrel into the rim, a guy like that needs to be on the wing, even if he can't shoot.

I'm not worried about TJ's role though. I think coming off the bench will be good for him and there is a lot better odds of him getting touches and into a flow as offense off the bench than if he was starting along side Bledsoe, Knight and (presumably) Kieff who would absorb a lot more of the opportunities than the substitutes will.

What I meant by a well defined role was a spot in the rotation so that he plays regularly and at fairly well defined time during the game. I'd expect Jeff or one of the assistants would give rather explicit instructions as to what was expected of him when he was on the floor and make him well aware that if he ignores the instructions he will quickly be sat down for that game.
I know that he likes to barrel all out to the rim so one of the instructions might be that he has to pull up for a jumper, say, one third of the time. If he shoots them poorly then he will practice pull up jumpers until he's blue in face - full tilt then pull up. The bigs could practice bothering his shot or blocking it. If he crashes into one then he has to carry his bags on the next trip.
You would think that NBA coaches would be brimming with ideas of how to get players to play the way they want since that figures to be a major component of their jobs. Goodwin hasn't exhibited much learned behavior as of yet - though he did pull up once in the first SL game.
I tend to think in terms of coaching and, right or wrong, I attribute most player failures to poor coaching. It really ticks me off when Jeff starts blaming the players, it's tantamount to admitting he doesn't know how to do his job. Either he isn't communicating what he wants them do or he doesn't know how to get them to do it during games.

As far as TJ getting touches, I'm assuming that Jeff plans to have one of Bledsoe or Knight on the floor nearly all the time. Thus TJ won't really be competing with subs for touches. And he doesn't need just touches, he needs a dsitributor who is well aware of when and where he needs the ball.
You may have noticed during the last two seasons almost every time Plums got a helpful pass it was from Bledsoe - not Goran. Maybe Miles mistakenly thought it wasn't worthwhile to try to get open when Goran was handling the ball or maybe he wasn't mistaken and Goran didn't look for him. TJ won't have be spoon fed to that degree but the same idea applies. He works his butt off finding little openings but the ball handler has to be aware of his movements to get the pass to him in good rhythm.

I'm sure its not what Jeff is hoping for but I expect Bledsoe and Knight to be locked in a battle for dominance. I think it will color their decision making all the time - what is the best thing for me in this situation. A timely pass to TJ is probably not going to wind up being an assist since he is not a spot up shooter so there won't be any formal credit. Thats where the difference between being a starter or a sub would come into play. Overlooking a starter would be a negative mark but a sub, not so much.
 

Errntknght

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Goodwin's problem with shooting is in his wrist. It's why I said he would never be an NBA player after watching him for 2 games (maybe 20 minutes). Very likely unfixable (especially given his mentality). His fingers feel is also terrible. Watch how the ball flys in every direction. Great shooting is in the hands mostly. Forearms down. It's an athletic ability as hard to change as any other but people always say "If he ever develops a jumpshot." It's almost like saying, "When he learns how to jump like Jordan."

This very question came up when McHale was conversing with the announcers in our SL game against the Rockets. Not in regard to Goodwin - IIRC they asked him about Dekker's shooting but Kevin answered rather generally. He said the most important aspect of shooting was having a consistent release point - if you change the release point you have to adjust each shot to compensate. He went on to say that you'd never teach anyone to emulate Reggie Miller's stroke but the thing about Reg was, despite his form, that he had a very consistent release point. I certainly don't know from personal experience that this is true but it sounds a lot more likely than some vague thing about the shooters wrist action. (You can make it less vague if you care to.) Though he didn't come right and say it, the whole idea was it was something that could be improved if not fixed.

I do remember many years ago we used to talk about how Jerry West's shot looked the same every time, like it was coming out of a mold. He was regarded as having very good shot mechanics on top of that.
 

JCSunsfan

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Shooting is alot like a golf swing. You have to have the right form. But you can make up for errors in form by being consistent.
 

Mainstreet

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Charles has a sweet golf stroke. Something that can't be taught. :)

It shows that skills from one sport does not always carry-over to another sport.
 

JS22

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Have you watched Summer League? Goodwin has developed a shot and has got a lot better at it. I used to think he was awful but man it's night and day difference.

Watching highlights I couldn't stop thinking how ugly his shot still looks. I actually think it looks worse, but at least they're going in.
 

JCSunsfan

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Is that Barkley? Wow. That's as bad as I have seen. We ought to have a contest to see who post vid of the worst shooting stroke in NBA history.
 

ProdigalSun

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Is that Barkley? Wow. That's as bad as I have seen. We ought to have a contest to see who post vid of the worst shooting stroke in NBA history.

Marion's was one of the worst for sure. But I think Manute Bol takes the cake

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Errntknght

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My Dad had one of the ugliest golf strokes I've ever seen - but he had extremely strong wrists and he'd always get the club face lined up at contact so the ball went straight, if not too far. One day I made the mistake videotaping myself, discovering the fact that I'd inherited his stroke. Not his wrists though so I sprayed the ball all over the fairway, the rough and adjoining fairways. With a driver I can reach across two fairways. I hate golf!
 

Phrazbit

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My Dad had one of the ugliest golf strokes I've ever seen - but he had extremely strong wrists and he'd always get the club face lined up at contact so the ball went straight, if not too far. One day I made the mistake videotaping myself, discovering the fact that I'd inherited his stroke. Not his wrists though so I sprayed the ball all over the fairway, the rough and adjoining fairways. With a driver I can reach across two fairways. I hate golf!

lol
 
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