Deeeep thoughts,.......with Oaken1

[outcent13]

I love the idea of trading down in the top 5 and drafting Greedy Williams. Shut down the back half and guys like Golden, pierre , and Reddick look a metric crap ton better.

 

[Chopper0080]

If I am not drafting Bosa, I take Quinnen Williams. He can do everything you want in a 3-4 and brings interior pass rush ability in nickel packages.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Seems to me that the "tell" will be whether the Cards re-sign Golden. It doesn't preclude selecting BOSA but leaves open the possibility of moving down to a team (Oakland) that would want him and be willing to pay the price.

The question, for me - is who is likely to be available at #4?

(Additionally, if the above trade is made, I wonder if the Cards would be prepared to move down again to a QB desperate team if a QB isn't selected within the first 3 picks)

 

[Southpaw]

where is the documentation on Oliver being a head case troublemaker? I have only heard of a single altercation.

https://sportsnaut.com/2018/11/report-potential-top-five-pick-ed-oliver-seen-as-high-maintenance/

• NCAA Football
• NFL

Report: Potential top-five pick Ed Oliver seen as ‘high-maintenance’
By
Jesse Reed
-
November 19, 2018

"
According to Breer, the incident was a big deal because Oliver already carried “a bit of rep in this regard.”

“According to scouts, Oliver has....

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

warning!

Post contains opinions and products of personal experience which may be presented as facts. with that in mind, please keep your personal butthurt to yourself.
I'm with you on josh Allen, I'm a Kentucky fan anyways, he can definitely cover, he can do it all, I don't think bosa can do all the things Allen can. RK............not so sure I agree with you there, he plays lazy at times & always seems to get injured, I'm thinking there's more durable NT's out there, either in the draft of in free agency.
opinions, opinions, opinions.....


anyway. Good morning Cardinal fans. Lots has changed with our beloved team in the past days and more changes are approaching. It's an exciting time to be a Cardinal fan! Yeehaw and Yippee-ki-yay!

Growing pains. we will feel them. It is going to take time for this new staff to develop the offense and get it ready for the NFL stage. Then, horror of horrors, other teams will get tape on us and start stopping what we do well. Thats when the skills of our offensive and defensive staff will be tested. Bounce back, adjust, adapt and overcome. Can they do it? Although he has never coached at the pro level I have a glimmer of faith that coach K2 will be able to make the required adjustments when the time comes. But we as fans need to be prepared for what may be a few rocky games as the learning curve straightens out.

Whoever becomes our OC will be working his tail off right out of the gate. Unlike many coaching hires K2 does not have an offense to install. It has to be built.***brick by brick*** (ouch)

Defensively I have faith that Vance Joseph can put together a top ten unit. with most of his history being geared towards the DB's,... the help of Billy Davis will be crucial in seeing that our linebacker investments pay dividends on sundays. I expect we will see a few additions to the defense via both free agency and the draft.
some of you have been around pro football for decades...others for merely years. One thing that has not really changed over the decades is player development timelines. Players whose position requires strength will generally take longer to develop. This is not just a skills development thing but a physiological thing. All things being equal, a 25 year old man is simply stronger than a 22 year old man. Men just develop that way. This means that badass DT or OG in the draft is at an automatic disadvantage when he takes the field at 22. It is also why historically speaking most players take three years to develop into NFL players. It used to be that a rookie might have a fantastic rookie season, than have a "sophomore slump" then come back in year three and start playing like a pro. The strength issues, like I said, affect the guys in the trenches the most. But they also affect a WR, as he needs to be able to fight off jams at the line and dominate the DB in position and hand fighting as they run downfield.

This three year development times is why I would make the "crazy" move of trying to extend the contract of Robert Nkemdiche. I wasnt for the pick at the time. But the guy has shown development and increase in strength. His recent injury will likely keep his production down next season as well. But we can use the development time and the injury to secure him with a lower contract. we wont likely get him locked up for 2.5 a year, but we can do it cheaper than if the injury had not happened. also, the signing bonus would put more money in his pocket right now compared to his fifth year option. Keep in mind RN wasnt a high pick, he was barely a first round guy...30 was it? For that draft position his development has been on par especially considering BA redshirted him his entire rookie season. I know lots of you guys are down on him...and we made a move like this with honeybadger that bit us in the ass. But we wont have to pay this guy top market price like we did with badger and DT's just take more time to develop unless they are just a pure athletic freak.
The development time is a big reason why teams hesitate to take an DT with a top five pick....those picks are usually used for instant upgrades. Thats why speed rushers off the edge often go in the top five, because while those guys still need to get stronger their speed allows them to make an impact as a rookie.

Seniors will usually show less development time in the NFL simply because they are older. But generally speaking most guys come out early and only stay for their senior season if they need time to post some numbers to increase their draft stock. So while seniors will develop faster they are often less talented to begin with.

Considering that it makes our choice at #1 overall easier or harder pending what you want. Bosa, Williams, and Oliver all have a speed factor in their respective games. Williams looks to be freakishly strong for his age. But neither Williams nor Oliver really fit our 34... they can be used but I would prefer seeing a guy with 20-30 more pounds on him at DE. IMO we would need a huge NT in order to offset their slighter builds at DE especially if RN is on the other side. Bosa fits at OLB but is too light to move in to DE and rumor has it he doesnt cover really well. Although only 21 Bosa has technique beyond his years which will allow him to be a day one contributor. Both Oliver and Williams can contribute right away as well. IMO Oliver would be better due to his quickness off the ball. A good DE can beat an OT with that first step and have instant pocket pressure.
With age comes weight. For guys in the trenches extra weight isnt usually an issue so long as they are not just getting fat. On the other hand, for guys on the edge who rely on speed the extra weight can start to limit their game...or at least change their contribution as added weight often starts to reduce quickness.
Of these three guys if I were making a selection at 1, I would pick Ed Oliver. He has the first step to contribute right away and also has a compact body type that will allow him to put on muscle without significantly changing his center of gravity. He should contribute as a rookie and continue to get better over the next few years as he gets stronger at the point of attack.
That being my choice I would also try and extend Markus Golden to keep his pass rushing presence across from Chandler Jones. It often takes a guy over a year to fully recover from a knee and IMO thats why his numbers were down...again, we can use that to get him for a lower contract. He and Jones were a nice tandem when both were healthy getting both sacks and pressures.

If we trade down I would look at Greedy Williams to put across from PP21 or if we let Golden go I would look at Josh Allen from KY. He would be a monster pairing with chandler jones and unlike Bosa there is no questions about his coverage ability. Of course it all depends on how far back we trade.

This took more typing than I anticipated so I'm gonna just stop here.

remember...opinions, but screw it, flame away anyhow.

 

[Chopper0080]

Seems to me that the "tell" will be whether the Cards re-sign Golden. It doesn't preclude selecting BOSA but leaves open the possibility of moving down to a team (Oakland) that would want him and be willing to pay the price.

The question, for me - is who is likely to be available at #4?

(Additionally, if the above trade is made, I wonder if the Cards would be prepared to move down again to a QB desperate team if a QB isn't selected within the first 3 picks)

I don't see re-signing Golden as having impact on what we do at one. Mainly because I don't see Golden going for more than a one year deal. He will take a one year deal here in AZ, and then test out FA next off-season.

Trading back will have more to do with overall compensation and how far down we will have to move. FA will also have a big impact.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don't see re-signing Golden as having impact on what we do at one. Mainly because I don't see Golden going for more than a one year deal. He will take a one year deal here in AZ, and then test out FA next off-season.

Trading back will have more to do with overall compensation and how far down we will have to move. FA will also have a big impact.

Still curious as to who is likely off the board with the first 3 picks?

 

[Chopper0080]

Still curious as to who is likely off the board with the first 3 picks?

Bosa is going 1 or 2. The only way he doesn't go 1, is if a QB is taken at 1 or Quinnen Williams is drafted at 1. Jets probably want to trade back to take an OL, but FA will clear that up.

 

[PACardsFan]

I’m not a fan of having pass-rushers being in coverage, so Josh Allen being good in coverage is moot to me, tbh.

Amen!

 

[PACardsFan]

I am usually inclined to take defense with the first five or six picks as these are usually freakish specimens. Rarely is an offensive player ready to step in and make such an impact. We have been complaining vociferously about needing a second corner to play opposite PP. It might also be beneficial to groom someone to replace PP. So I could easily be convinced to take Greedy Williams if he test out.

CB's have high bust potential. We don't have the luxury of missing this year & we should NOT trade down. I've seen Greedy look very good & I've seen him look pedestrian too.

 

[Veer]

KK will push for Kyler Murray. Big question is whether Keim grants him this wish.

 

[cardncubfan]

KK will push for Kyler Murray. Big question is whether Keim grants him this wish.

No way KK is going to push for a different QB. Especially Murray.

 

[BigRedRage]

Good stuff.

Interesting take on Nkemdiche...you are definitely looking at this from a unique angle. There is no denying his talent...dude is special. However, there is no denying that he can't stay healthy. At what point do you move on (seems like now to me).

IF Nkemdiche was willing to sign a 2 year extension under market value (current value as DL not potential value)...it may be worth the gamble.

is he?

 

[BigRedRage]

KK will push for Kyler Murray. Big question is whether Keim grants him this wish.

not happening

 

[GuernseyCard]

Bosa is going 1 or 2. The only way he doesn't go 1, is if a QB is taken at 1 or Quinnen Williams is drafted at 1. Jets probably want to trade back to take an OL, but FA will clear that up.

So are you saying Bosa, Williams, Haskins is the top 3 off the board?

 

[WildBB]

Good write Oaken. So many good defenders in this draft. Do we get our RT in FA will determine alot on how this FO drafts. I like Williams and Allen both as well. But would still like to keep 44 around.

 

[Chopper0080]

So are you saying Bosa, Williams, Haskins is the top 3 off the board?

I could see the draft like this...

1-Cardinals-Nick Bosa-EDGE
2-49ers-Josh Allen-EDGE
3-Jets trade w/ Giants - Dwayne Haskins-QB
4-Raiders-Quinnen Williams-DT
5-Bucs-Brian Burns-EDGE
6-Jets trade w/ Giants-Cody Ford-OT
7-Jags-Kyler Murray-QB
8-Lions-Ed Oliver-DT
9-Bills-Jonah Williams-OT
10-Broncos-Byron Murphy-CB

 

[GuernseyCard]

I could see the draft like this...

1-Cardinals-Nick Bosa-EDGE
2-49ers-Josh Allen-EDGE
3-Jets trade w/ Giants - Dwayne Haskins-QB
4-Raiders-Quinnen Williams-DT
5-Bucs-Brian Burns-EDGE
6-Jets trade w/ Giants-Cody Ford-OT
7-Jags-Kyler Murray-QB
8-Lions-Ed Oliver-DT
9-Bills-Jonah Williams-OT
10-Broncos-Byron Murphy-CB

Interesting. A variation could include be a Cards move to #4 and taking Williams. Left to see - but I simply can't imagine a 5-9 QB going off the board in the top 10 no matter how the game is supposedly changed. People who rave about Baker Mayfield should take note of the number of batted balls and hurried throws from the pocket by a QB who is 3 inches taller. My sense is the Jags are going to invest in a FA QB. They can't let an otherwise solid lineup go to waste.

 

[WisconsinCard]

I’m not a fan of having pass-rushers being in coverage, so Josh Allen being good in coverage is moot to me, tbh.

That is today's NFL 3-4 defenses though, and how they disguise coverages. You never know who's coming after the QB or who is dropping into coverage.

 

[Chopper0080]

Interesting. A variation could include be a Cards move to #4 and taking Williams. Left to see - but I simply can't imagine a 5-9 QB going off the board in the top 10 no matter how the game is supposedly changed. People who rave about Baker Mayfield should take note of the number of batted balls and hurried throws from the pocket by a QB who is 3 inches taller. My sense is the Jags are going to invest in a FA QB. They can't let an otherwise solid lineup go to waste.

I think the Jags want to run the ball and play defense. I could see them mirroring what Baltimore and the Cowboys try to do. Murray can fit in that and has enough escapability to be a weapon on 3rd downs. Not what I would do, but I can see the league going in this direction, especially if you don't want to pay a FA QB 22 mil.

 

[Chopper0080]

Interesting. A variation could include be a Cards move to #4 and taking Williams. Left to see - but I simply can't imagine a 5-9 QB going off the board in the top 10 no matter how the game is supposedly changed. People who rave about Baker Mayfield should take note of the number of batted balls and hurried throws from the pocket by a QB who is 3 inches taller. My sense is the Jags are going to invest in a FA QB. They can't let an otherwise solid lineup go to waste.

I also don't see the Raiders moving up. They acquired picks because they wanted multiple players...and I don't see them giving them up when I am sure they like at least 4 players in this draft.

 

[oaken1]

I also don't see the Raiders moving up. They acquired picks because they wanted multiple players...and I don't see them giving them up when I am sure they like at least 4 players in this draft.

yeah I only see the raiders moving up if Gruden just has to get Bosa...but even then he will want to keep two picks in the first round this year. he needs defensive front but he also needs a WR to make his offense work...and JG is all about his offense.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

Amen!

Josh Allen is a stud though & damn good at defending the pass, watched him disrupt many plays while rushing the passer & dropping back into coverage to confuse the offense on certain play calls & formations. In this day & age of offense in the NFL you have to be versatile, much like using more safeties that can tackle to defend against the run & pass allowing the defense to not have to substitute so often according to different formations. Kind of the same as positionless basketball where a guy can defend multiple positions regardless of his size.

 

[THESMEL]

Don’t matter if we pass ourselves to death - enjoying the run games and rb receiving of this years playoff teams - 3rd dimension of play action is front and center - gotta believe K2 with a Texas roots can develop a fundementally sound balanced offense - but all they talk about is the 6 QBs he’s developed and his air show - which is great- if you can earn play action through running the rock.

 

[oaken1]

Don’t matter if we pass ourselves to death - enjoying the run games and rb receiving of this years playoff teams - 3rd dimension of play action is front and center - gotta believe K2 with a Texas roots can develop a fundementally sound balanced offense - but all they talk about is the 6 QBs he’s developed and his air show - which is great- if you can earn play action through running the rock.

great air show. But rumor has it he ran the ball on 45% of his plays at TT.... thats a fair amount of running game.