Deal Agreed to in Principle

[coyoteshockeyfan]

"While no official proposals were exchanged, the NHL explained its final offer in more detail. The union was not impressed."

http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=115459

 

[Town Drunk]

Again, you really can't seriously believe that both sides are going to give out all their intentions, and talk about everything that went on to the media. That's just not how it works.

According to Hradek, the season is done.

He said that Bettman would have considered a deal at $45 million. He also said that many owners would have done a $45 million deal. But said in the end, there was still some hard liners out there.

He said that the players were snubbed.

Gretzky was also on and he thought that the talks were actually positive.

Edit:

Gretzky also said something about some backchanel communication, but I missed that part

 

[Town Drunk]

http://hockeyrumors.blogspot.com

Info coming in...
The players are calling this a bait and switch...they went because they were told the number they wanted was ther, and once they were in the meeting they were told there was no room to move...still the sides aren't that far apartwhen it comes to the numbers, and yet they didn't want to compromise enough to save the season for the fans of hockey. Revenue sharing was also a big issue with rumors swirling about how the rich just wouldn't give to the poor to make the sport a legitimate top four sport...And yet a press conference was strongly rumored minutes before it fell apart...Something happened, and I demand to know what was so important, more important than the lives of so many people who depend on this for their living or for their escape from a world that can be hard enough without your sport team's acting like children who have lost all sense of perspective. I urge you all to go to your teams and demand answers...don't say you'll never watch again...that hurts yourself, and if you love this sport this hurts alot. I guess it is time that we find something else to care about

 

[Town Drunk]

What a shame.

I guess I'll direct my funds earmarked for hockey towards baseball, since the season is close to starting up.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Again, you really can't seriously believe that both sides are going to give out all their intentions, and talk about everything that went on to the media. That's just not how it works.

According to Hradek, the season is done.

He said that Bettman would have considered a deal at $45 million. He also said that many owners would have done a $45 million deal. But said in the end, there was still some hard liners out there.

He said that the players were snubbed.

Gretzky was also on and he thought that the talks were actually positive.

Of course I dont think they will tell everything to the media. But there is no word that has come out after the meetings that says the players officially offered $45M, or any offer at all, so to assume that they did just because you are on their side is ridiculous. If $45M was offered and Bettman would have considered it as Hradek said, it would have been a done deal. Bettman only needs 8 votes to get his way.

 

[WizardOfAz]

And now, I'm reading that it's the owners who backed out.

Horrible group those 'weak sister' owners. They are just as intent on punishing the Red Wings, Rangers, etc, as they are the NHLPA. They are fighting this war on two fronts....pathetic group!

 

[Town Drunk]

Are you telling me how I should think? Step off your high horse, please.

All the national media last night reported that a deal was agreed in principle that included a $45 million cap. Do you think they would just make that up?

Players said they were leaving to come back to North America because they thought a deal was as good as done.

So I have good reason to believe that the players did in fact offer a $45 million deal. And since you were hellbent on pointing out a couple of days ago that the owners made a final offer, it only seems logical that since the owners made a final offer, it would have been the players that would have made the next offer. Also, there were reports on Thursday that several players were preparing to make Bettman an offer.

So yes, I have a good reason to “assume” that the players made an offer. You telling me otherwise is “ridiculous.”

And according to quotes, it’s the owners who have backed out. Do you honestly believe Bettman would have taken the deal if only a fraction of the owners agreed to it? Of course not.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Are you telling me how I should think? Step off your high horse, please.

All the national media last night reported that a deal was agreed in principle that included a $45 million cap. Do you think they would just make that up?

Players said they were leaving to come back to North America because they thought a deal was as good as done.

So I have good reason to believe that the players did in fact offer a $45 million deal. And since you were hellbent on pointing out a couple of days ago that the owners made a final offer, it only seems logical that since the owners made a final offer, it would have been the players that would have made the next offer. Also, there were reports on Thursday that several players were preparing to make Bettman an offer.

So yes, I have a good reason to “assume” that the players made an offer. You telling me otherwise is “ridiculous.”

And according to quotes, it’s the owners who have backed out. Do you honestly believe Bettman would have taken the deal if only a fraction of the owners agreed to it? Of course not.

Im not telling you how to think, but I dont think its appropriate to post sketchy assumption as fact. You said "The players agreed to a $45 million cap. And the owners can’t step up and go half way, even when the difference between $42.5 and $45 is very little." Dont get me wrong, you make it sound like I hate the players, I really dont. Id love nothing more to have read that the players offered $45M, but there isnt much concrete data to support this. This doesnt mean that they didnt, they very well could have, but there isnt a whole lot to say this is true.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Heads up, Gretz is supposed to be on ESPNEWS sometime soon to talk about todays meetings.

 

[Scott MS]

Im not telling you how to think, but I dont think its appropriate to post sketchy assumption as fact. You said "The players agreed to a $45 million cap. And the owners can’t step up and go half way, even when the difference between $42.5 and $45 is very little." Dont get me wrong, you make it sound like I hate the players, I really dont. Id love nothing more to have read that the players offered $45M, but there isnt much concrete data to support this. This doesnt mean that they didnt, they very well could have, but there isnt a whole lot to say this is true.

I would agree that it is difficult to really know what happened and what was offered. In hindsight, many of the rumors on the hockeyblog site would seem to be incorrect.

Regardless, the owners are calling the shots because it's their league. If the players can't meet the $42.5, then they won't play.

 

[Scott MS]

Horrible group those 'weak sister' owners. They are just as intent on punishing the Red Wings, Rangers, etc, as they are the NHLPA. They are fighting this war on two fronts....pathetic group!

You make a good point, about fighting on two fronts. I would agree that some owners are battling against overspending teams as much as the player's cap. The idea of a salary cap should help create more parity and more opportunity for all teams to experience success, which should translate into more fans in the stands and more playoff games. I think most owners should realize that a salary cap is better for parity in the league, whereas the lack of a cap is better for the "rich" teams to continue dominating.

If you look at the finest example of this practice -- Major League Baseball -- you can easily see how the effect of a salary cap would have on making the league more even. If baseball went to an $80M salary cap right now, some teams would still only spend $40M, but the Yankees and Red Sox at $150M+ would have to cut half their players. Instantly Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, Jeter, etc, etc., would all be available to other teams. Parity would increase and the poor Orioles, Devil Rays, and Blue Jays would finally have a chance.

If you're the Devil Rays owner and you're in the same division as Boston and New York, why even try to field a good team? It would cost you at least $100M+ to be competitive. It's an interesting scenario.

 

[Town Drunk]

Im not telling you how to think, but I dont think its appropriate to post sketchy assumption as fact. You said "The players agreed to a $45 million cap. And the owners can’t step up and go half way, even when the difference between $42.5 and $45 is very little." Dont get me wrong, you make it sound like I hate the players, I really dont. Id love nothing more to have read that the players offered $45M, but there isnt much concrete data to support this. This doesnt mean that they didnt, they very well could have, but there isnt a whole lot to say this is true.

According to this, it sounds like the players did agree to a $45 million cap, like I said.

http://hockeyrumors.blogspot.com

Five Owners...
Let me clarify this...I know of five owners that lobbied to kill the the deal...Five that don't even want to play this year...There may be more, but Ican only confirm five...This isn't about the eight owners blocking a deal thing that we all have all been hearing about. If Betman doesn't want a deal he only needs eight owners to agree. If Bettman does want a deal he only needs a majority..

I received this from an NHL player this afternoon...

"The league was going to offer us a fairly generous deal (my guess is the $45 mill everyone was reporting)
but when he took it back to the owners some of the hardliners shot it down."

I am getting more and more info...The players are angry.....ESPN is furious...They should let them vote...

I am preparing a long story fo tomorrow morning outlining this past weeks info...I think we should hold them accountable for their actions. Even though I am, like all of you, just sick of this I still feel I owe it to you all to find the truth. You have all been so supportive of m y cause and i will keep working. I am not going away. Not now...If you have any info e-mail me.

http://start.shaw.ca/start/enCA/Sports/SportsNewsArticle.htm?src=s021857A.xml

Privately, some players, GMs and owners all agreed $45 million was the magic number to get a deal done. But neither side picked up the phone in the last 12 hours leading up to the cancellation.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/18/news_pf/Sports/NHL_s_day_after_inclu.shtml

"I think $45-million might be the number," (Tim) Taylor said. "We were on our way until (Bettman) sent out his letter."

And who broke the story that an agreement was made with a $45 million cap? Not an owner, not a GM, a player.

A player close to the talks who asked to remain anonymous told The Hockey News the two sides have agreed to a deal in principle that features a $45-million salary cap. Asked if there was any way a deal won't get done, the player said,
"not that I can see. I couldn't possibly imagine the idea that somebody is going to try to make a name for themselves in the last minute here."

So, it does look like the players agreed to $45 million.

 

[WizardOfAz]

So, it does look like the players agreed to $45 million.

It's pretty clear that they did, but it is more clear that this ownership group never wanted any type of agreement struck.

 

[Town Drunk]

I agree completely with that.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

According to Hradek on Sportscenter, the players didnt offer a cap of $45M, or anything else today for that matter. I dont deny that 45 seemed to be what should have a magic number, but neither side offered it today. Interestingly enough, Saskin said something to the extent that one of the biggest problems wasnt the cap number, but the fact that the cap number didnt change over the next six years if revenues were to grow. However, on the other side of that coin, would the PA have accepted a cap that tightened up if revenues sagged? Of course not, the NHL offered that at one time. So, the PA wanted the cap to increase if revenue increased, but didnt want the cap to decrease if revenues decreased. So in other words, they didnt want to share the risk with the owners, but wanted to reap possible rewards. Sorry, it doesnt work like that...

 

[Scott MS]

Did you guys read the article linked above from tsn. If not, I posted it below. Either you don't want to believe it, but the NHL never received a revised proposal from the players.



Daly after labour talks: It's too late


CP/TSN.ca
2/19/2005

NEW YORK (CP) - This time it is over. For good.

Despite the presence of Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, another round of NHL talks failed to save the season Saturday.

"The season was over on Wednesday and it's certainly not going to be resurrected after today," NHL Players' Association senior director Ted Saskin said after the 6-hour session. "It's 100 per cent certain coming out of today's meeting that nothing could impact the cancellation of the season."

The NHL agreed whole-heartedly, but was mystified more by what didn't happen in the meeting.

"The bottom line is, our understanding was that this meeting was for them to come forward with a new proposal but it never got to that point," NHL executive vice-president Bill Daly told The Canadian Press in an interview.

Like most observers, the league heard all the buzz Friday about a possible deal and privately hoped it meant the union was coming armed with an offer.

"We took a far different approach to this meeting than apparently they did," Daly said. "The media advisory they put out last night, all the leaks in the press about a deal being done at $45 million (salary cap), I don't know where those came from but I can tell you they didn't come from our side.

"So there was certainly a suggestion that they were prepared to make us a $45-million offer today, but that didn't happen."

Saskin obviously saw it differently.

"I can't imagine how they would take that approach when what was clear is that they invited us to a meeting," Saskin said in a later interview with The Canadian Press. "So in that circumstance, you would expect and what we had heard is that they had more that they wanted to offer than what they did the other day.

"But before even getting into the number it became more important to address what the systemic issues were around the number and that quickly let us to conclude the areas of disagreement are far more profound than was originally thought."

The league, privately, was stunned it didn't get an offer.

"The union is still intent on negotiating for more than we can afford," commissioner Gary Bettman told the league's 30 owners in a memo obtained by The Canadian Press. "They put nothing new and concrete on the table. "Unfortunately I was correct on Wednesday when I said we were much further apart then the media was portraying."

There never was a discussion on bridging the gap between their last two salary cap proposals, the owners at $42.5 million US and players at $49 million. Most of the meeting was spent on the league further explaining details from its final offer, and the players didn't like what they heard.

"I think there was a misconception that the two sides were close," NHLPA president Trevor Linden told reporters after the meeting. "I think, frankly, it came from the side of ownership and certainly general managers and some players and fans and media.

"But I think it was crystal clear from our standpoint that we weren't and that was evident today."

Added Colorado's Vincent Damphousse, a union vice-president: "When we saw more details on their offer we realized it was much worse than we thought."

Calgary Flames superstar Jarome Iginla said he was more than devastated to hear how things went badly Saturday.

"It's beyond that," he said by phone. "Especially when it looks on the surface like it's just about a (salary cap) number but then the league changes other things in the deal."

The NHLPA says the league altered a number of facets from the Dec. 9 union model it was supposed to work from with the salary cap. The league sees is differently.

It doesn't matter, hockey is dead again, and fans have been burned twice in four days.

"It's such a sad situation for hockey," Iginla said. "It's way past anger and frustration.

"It's like a nightmare that won't end."

Saturday's meeting was preceded by days of rumblings and phone calls and behind-the-scenes activity with players, owners, GMs and agents all involved in trying to get both sides together one more time.

After hearing all the chatter from both sides, Daly phoned Linden on Thursday to set up the meeting and Linden accepted only after asking for the presence of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Lemieux, the Pittsburgh Penguins player-owner, and Gretzky, managing partner of the Phoenix Coyotes, were joined on the league side by Daly and outside counsel Bob Batterman.

"As silly as it sounds, the talks were pretty positive," Gretzky sighed.

"Mario and I have not been involved in the ongoing negotiations," Gretzky told TSN. "I think that both sides, mutually, tried to bargain in good faith and had extensive talks today. We met for seven or eight hours and, unfortunately, couldn't come to an understanding. But, as I said at the end of talks today, from the outside point of view, it looked like we made some strides even though we're still apart. Both Mario and I encouraged both sides to keep talking."

Said Gretzky in a statement: "Mario and I were happy to be part of the process and everyone seemed to work very hard together. We had a constructive meeting and we only hope they will continue meeting for the betterment of the NHL and its fans."

Added Lemieux: "I hope all parties continue talking and come to a solution for the betterment of the game. I certainly appreciate the work Gary and Bill have done a lot more, now that I have been part of one of these sessions."

Saskin and Linden were joined in the meeting by Damphousse and NHLPA director of business affairs Mike Gartner.

The new dynamic at least provided a civil and cordial atmosphere.

"Mike Gartner was a very, very positive influence in the meeting and we concluded and we all agreed that we have to sit down and work through these issues, that the league needs a new deal, that the players need a new deal and the sooner we can reach a new deal the better," Daly said. "I wish we had that spirit of co-operation of dialogue from the start but we haven't."

Not in the meeting Saturday were the leaders, commissioner Gary Bettman and NHLPA executive director Bob Goodenow, the latter still making the trip to New York but waiting in the wings for developments.

Privately, the league doesn't want Goodenow in the room, just as the union would prefer Bettman to stay away as well.

The focus now is on the 2005-'06 season. After a board of governors meeting the week after next, the league will likely reach out at the NHLPA and try to renew talks in an effort to get a deal done as soon as possible.

The league would love to get a deal done by May in order to hold an entry draft in June, reach out to fans and corporate sponsors, market the game with its new rules. In short, re-launch hockey.

 

[Scott MS]

It's pretty clear that they did, but it is more clear that this ownership group never wanted any type of agreement struck.

Pretty clear based on anonymous sources and hockey-starved fans creating rumors.

 

[Town Drunk]

Tim Taylor (the hockey player) is an anonymous source and hockey starved fan?

 

[Town Drunk]

Here's another:

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2005/02/15/931655.html

Sun Media was told a group of six players, which may have included St. Louis Blues' Chris Pronger, Calgary Flames' Jarome Iginla and Philadelphia Flyers' Jeremy Roenick, were trying to push for a cap, starting at around $30 million US and going as high as $45 million, without a link to revenues.

There's plenty of more links and quotes linking the players to accepting a $45 million cap.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

There is a huge, huge difference between some players pushing for a lower cap, and the players accepting or offering one (by players meaning the NHLPA). The NHLPA did not accept nor offer a $45 million cap. Not today, not yesterday, not ever. I bet if it was put to a vote by the players themselves it would pass, but that is totally different from the PA offering or accepting one.

 

[Town Drunk]

There isn’t a huge difference at all.

A very high majority of players accepted a $45 million cap. That’s pretty obvious. They would have played under that, they would have agreed to that.

Now, did the two sides talk about it? According to Daly, they didn’t. But something must have come up that prompted the “Agreement in Principle” stuff last night.

Or maybe you're misinterpreting how I'm using the word accepted?

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

There isn’t a huge difference at all.

A very high majority of players accepted a $45 million cap. That’s pretty obvious. They would have played under that, they would have agreed to that.

Now, did the two sides talk about it? According to Daly, they didn’t. But something must have come up that prompted the “Agreement in Principle” stuff last night.

Or maybe you're misinterpreting how I'm using the word accepted?

Actually, its the word "players" Im having trouble with. Just so we can get this straight, when you say "players" do you mean it in a formal sense (ie: their representative body, the NHLPA), or do you just mean the handful of players that have mentioned $45M? If you mean the latter, I agree, I dont doubt that the players themselves would take $45M (and probably lower) if they were to vote on it. But unfortunately, they dont get to vote on it. In the strictest sense, the NHLPA did not offer or accept the "magic" $45M, and they are the only ones that can do so (barring something drastic). However, this is not the only major difference the NHL and the PA had today.

Edit: edited out the comma overload

 

[Scott MS]

NHLPA never accepted the $45M cap, that is the key. I read ESPN and other sources and they all say the NHLPA never came to the table today with the agreement.

This is a moot point. There will be no more hockey until Fall and they should have something worked out by then -- NHLPA or no NHLPA.

 

[Scott MS]

This has probably been posted many times before, but it's the total payroll from last season. Interesting to see where the proposed $45M cap line would have fallen.

2003-04 Team Total Payroll


Detroit Red Wings $ 77,856,109
New York Rangers $ 76,488,716
Dallas Stars $ 68,578,885
Philadelphia Flyers $ 68,175,247
Colorado Avalanche $ 63,382,458
Toronto Maple Leafs $ 62,458,140
St. Louis Blues $ 61,675,000
Los Angeles Kings $ 53,833,800
Anaheim Mighty Ducks $ 53,296,750
Washington Capitals $ 50,895,750
New Jersey Devils $ 48,931,658
Boston Bruins $ 46,569,000
__________________________________

Vancouver Canucks $ 42,074,500
New York Islanders $ 40,865,500
Ottawa Senators $ 39,590,000
Phoenix Coyotes $ 39,249,750
Montreal Canadiens $ 38,857,000
Calgary Flames $ 36,402,575
Carolina Hurricanes $ 35,908,738
San Jose Sharks $ 34,455,000
Tampa Bay Lightning $ 34,065,379
Columbus Blue Jackets $ 34,000,000
Edmonton Oilers $ 33,375,000
Buffalo Sabres $ 32,954,250
Chicago Blackhawks $ 30,867,502
Atlanta Thrashers $ 28,547,500
Minnesota Wild $ 27,200,500
Florida Panthers $ 26,127,500
Pittsburgh Penguins $ 23,400,000
Nashville Predators $ 21,932,500

 

[NickelBack]

It's pretty clear that they did, but it is more clear that this ownership group never wanted any type of agreement struck.

Very true.

This group was more interested in 'a larger victory' than seeing hockey played this season.