Cardinals Seahawks: The everything wrong with Kyler thread

AZfaninMN

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They updated the pressure rate for Sunday’s game. Kyler was pressure on 27% of his drop backs while only being blitzed 2 times. Our offensive line is terrible.
Add in Eno had a whopping 1.2 yards before contact while running the ball and it’s no wonder we scored 3 points on offense. Missed opportunities by the Qb and awful line play :barf:
 

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Went back and paused these to see the early development. Stopped this one at 18.06 sec. Looks can be deceiving. This looks like 2 line men telling their QB that the left side is bangin on this one. 1 of them is standing turning his head to talk directly at him. Caption that pic. "Hey Kyler. Look at the big empty chunk of green over here."
That’s the silent count. It happens like that on almost every play.
 

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Being objective, I think that if we are to win tonight, it will be our Defense that wins the game for us. I still have faith that the Offense will improve, but that probably won't happen until Week Eight. That will give Hop and Robbie Anderson time to get up to speed, and hopefully have Conner, Ford and Hudson in better health. And naturally that means no serious injuries, tonight. JMO.
 
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They updated the pressure rate for Sunday’s game. Kyler was pressure on 27% of his drop backs while only being blitzed 2 times. Our offensive line is terrible.

This is just lazy.

First, this means that on 73% of drop backs he had no pressure. So why are all those plays terrible too?

What about the previous 4 games where he had less than 11% pressure? That's the lowest 4 game pressure streak of his career. or 4 games he was the least pressured QB in the league. He still sucked.

Daniel Jones is 5-1 and has a 32% pressure rate. Mahomes has a 25% pressure rate. Kirk Cousins has 25%. Geno Smith has 23%. Jalen Hurts has 22%.

Kyler has 21%. The league average is 21.65%.

Nearly all that pressure came in game 1 vs the Chiefs with 65%.

The O line is absolutely fine and in no way responsible for Kyler playing like crap.
 

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Colin Cowherd had an interesting take which will never happen. Trade Kyler to Denver for Russell Wilson.
Hackett wants a more mobile Qb and Wilson can read a defense.
 

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Colin Cowherd had an interesting take which will never happen. Trade Kyler to Denver for Russell Wilson.
Hackett wants a more mobile Qb and Wilson can read a defense.
So why is Wilson playing just as bad, if not worse, than Kyler? Why is he getting ridiculed for missing open players?
 

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I think Kyler is so concerned/afraid of contact that he doesn’t want to go through progressions so he dumps it off first possible chance. Many QBs will hang in there pocket KNOWING they will get lit up to make the correct read but not Kyler. Since last season I have been saying he is soft and I honestly hate suggesting that but to me it is obvious.
I agree this plays a lot into his decisions. There is a difference in avoiding the big hit and not wanting to be hit at all.
 

slanidrac16

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So why is Wilson playing just as bad, if not worse, than Kyler? Why is he getting ridiculed for missing open players?
The point of this thread is demonstrating Kyler’s shortcomings of reading defenses. We’ve seen many examples of open players in this offense where maybe a guy like Wilson would see it. On the other side the Broncos could benefit from a more athletic Qb.
I’m just passing along the Colin Cowherd theory.
 
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Colin Cowherd had an interesting take which will never happen. Trade Kyler to Denver for Russell Wilson.
Hackett wants a more mobile Qb and Wilson can read a defense.

Cowherd thinks it's basketball.

Both teams would have crippling dead money that would put them over the cap by tens of millions with any trade.
 
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Bailey Zappe, a late round rookie, has better feet, better pocket presence and better through his progressions than Kyler.

Ever remember Kyler stepping up in the pocket, sliding to his left while keeping his form and his eyes down field?

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AZfaninMN

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This is just lazy.

First, this means that on 73% of drop backs he had no pressure. So why are all those plays terrible too?

What about the previous 4 games where he had less than 11% pressure? That's the lowest 4 game pressure streak of his career. or 4 games he was the least pressured QB in the league. He still sucked.

Daniel Jones is 5-1 and has a 32% pressure rate. Mahomes has a 25% pressure rate. Kirk Cousins has 25%. Geno Smith has 23%. Jalen Hurts has 22%.

Kyler has 21%. The league average is 21.65%.

Nearly all that pressure came in game 1 vs the Chiefs with 65%.

The O line is absolutely fine and in no way responsible for Kyler playing like crap.
What do you mean it’s lazy? The fact that you were wrong on your pressure numbers that your were so sure to be correct? I’m not using the pressure numbers to justify Kyler’s play because like I stated, it’s bad. The fact that the worst defense in the league, second worst going into the week at getting after the QB, blitzed twice the entire game and still managed to get to Kyler 21% of the time. Plus as I mentioned before contact Eno was getting 1.2 yards, which is also awful.

This entire thread is based off of one game against Seattle, so I used the advanced metrics that you handed to me to prove what you thought was wrong. Did you watch the all-22 in those other games too? In a game where your QB is sacked 6 times and pressured another 7 times while the defense blitzes twice is an awful game. 6 sacks in itself is enough to justify saying they had a bad game. But sure you’re right the line is filled with studs and played great it’s all on Kyler.

Zero run game, minus Kyler, rushing 4 getting home, all while blitzing 2 times.

I’m not defending Kyler at all because he did miss a lot of open players in your examples you provided, but to say the line played good is just not true
 

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Well thanks, that's my point.

A QB isn't required to go through all of his progressions but HE decides what his progressions are based on the defense. That's what "reading a defense" is.

So knowing the play he is running and looking at the way the defense is set up his 1st read should not be to throw to Brown in 4 vs 2 coverage. It should not be to throw to Moore in 4 vs 2 coverage. Both plays that will get a few yards at best even if they are completed considering that there are 4 defenders.

Seeing what this defense is doing pre snap his 1st read should be McBride. His 2nd read should be Green (purely because he's in the vicinity of McBride so it's an easy read) and his 3rd read should be Eno. That's where ALL the yards are. You have 2 vs 1 or 3 vs 2 on that side of the field.

Brown should be the 4th option on this play, not 1st. But Kyler should have no need to come down to his left considering the option he has to his right.

But he ONLY looks left. He should ONLY be looking right.

This is what you pay $45m for. Literally any QB can say "I'm just going to throw to Brown for 5 yards no matter what the defense is doing". We could get Chase Daniels to do that. We could get Mike Glennon to do that. We could drag Drew Stanton out of his grave to do that.

The reason you pay top level quarterbacks all that money is because they look at what a defense is doing and shift their reads based on that to get the maximum potential out of every play. And that isn't happening at all.

And this isn't a difficult one. This is garbage defense by Seattle. 75% of quarterbacks in the league would look at the way Seattle are set up and say "This is gold dust. Easy 30 yard play here".
I love how you keep using hindsight to gain knowledge about a play like this to critique Kyler's play.

There's no debating that Kyler needs to improve, but this play wasn't one of them. Go use the second example you posted to slam Kyler, it is actually justified.

You keep stating facts like, he doesn't throw to receivers unless he is open, and he only looks left, but you are wrong and the stats prove otherwise.

You can keep going though. It isn't like you'd admit being wrong about an opinion anyway...
 
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What do you mean it’s lazy? The fact that you were wrong on your pressure numbers that your were so sure to be correct? I’m not using the pressure numbers to justify Kyler’s play because like I stated, it’s bad. The fact that the worst defense in the league, second worst going into the week at getting after the QB, blitzed twice the entire game and still managed to get to Kyler 21% of the time. Plus as I mentioned before contact Eno was getting 1.2 yards, which is also awful.

This entire thread is based off of one game against Seattle, so I used the advanced metrics that you handed to me to prove what you thought was wrong. Did you watch the all-22 in those other games too? In a game where your QB is sacked 6 times and pressured another 7 times while the defense blitzes twice is an awful game. 6 sacks in itself is enough to justify saying they had a bad game. But sure you’re right the line is filled with studs and played great it’s all on Kyler.

Zero run game, minus Kyler, rushing 4 getting home, all while blitzing 2 times.

I’m not defending Kyler at all because he did miss a lot of open players in your examples you provided, but to say the line played good is just not true

I'm breaking down what he is doing poorly when he is clean and when he is in control.

Many of his sacks were due to his poor play when people were open.

Were the O line great on Sunday with 2 starters out? No. But they were adequate. Far better than 3 points scored.

And yes, I have watched previous games and he was just as bad.
 
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I love how you keep using hindsight to gain knowledge about a play like this to critique Kyler's play.

There's no debating that Kyler needs to improve, but this play wasn't one of them. Go use the second example you posted to slam Kyler, it is actually justified.

You keep stating facts like, he doesn't throw to receivers unless he is open, and he only looks left, but you are wrong and the stats prove otherwise.

You can keep going though. It isn't like you'd admit being wrong about an opinion anyway...

Because you are literally the only person that things Kyler did well on this play. It's very obvious he didn't.

And I'm not using hindsight. I'm using the play design and basic math. Kyler knows the play, he can see where the defense is. He should KNOW that he is outnumbered to his left but has the advantage to his right. So why would he ignore right and throw left?

If this was the military and you were the general and you can see the enemy forces are concentrated to the West but light in the East and your goal is to reach the ground behind them would you choose the slow battle of attrition to the West and the quick lethal show of force to the East?

Where have I said "He doesn't throw to receivers unless he is open" or "He doesn't look left"? There are plays where he doesn't look one direction or another and misses wide open guys. That's evident in this play. But it's not a general fact. However, he clearly does not often go through progressions.

This play was a dumpster fire and your just wrong.
 

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I'm breaking down what he is doing poorly when he is clean and when he is in control.

Many of his sacks were due to his poor play when people were open.

Were the O line great on Sunday with 2 starters out? No. But they were adequate. Far better than 3 points scored.

And yes, I have watched previous games and he was just as bad.
8th most pressured QB with the least amount of time spent in the pocket. Something doesn’t add up…
 

dreamcastrocks

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There are plays where he doesn't look one direction or another and misses wide open guys. That's evident in this play. But it's not a general fact. However, he clearly does not often go through progressions.
I'm not afraid to state something that might not be a popular opinion.

Because you are literally the only person that things Kyler did well on this play. It's very obvious he didn't.

And I'm not using hindsight. I'm using the play design and basic math. Kyler knows the play, he can see where the defense is. He should KNOW that he is outnumbered to his left but has the advantage to his right. So why would he ignore right and throw left?

If this was the military and you were the general and you can see the enemy forces are concentrated to the West but light in the East and your goal is to reach the ground behind them would you choose the slow battle of attrition to the West and the quick lethal show of force to the East?
I am the one countering your point, and people are agreeing with me. There is a like button at the bottom to express agreement to an opinion you know.
Where have I said "He doesn't throw to receivers unless he is open" or "He doesn't look left"?
I meant only looks left. I think you know what I meant, changed my post to read the actual opposite of what I said. Kudos.

You also said he didn't throw receivers open. I gave you the 'Why does he throw it long on 3rd and 1 waiting for receivers to get open?' You countered with that's not what I meant, as if I am wrong and distorted your literal words.

This play was a dumpster fire and your just wrong.
It has clear you have never played organized football, and clearly have a bias that keeps you from being objective. It's okay to have them, you should just throw that out there and state that so everyone knows. The difference between me and you is that I have admitted that I have been wrong or I might have been wrong.

You are using the logic of, 'Kyler's playing bad, so he must be bad on every play.'
 
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8th most pressured QB with the least amount of time spent in the pocket. Something doesn’t add up…

18th most pressured quarterback.

And it's not time in the pocket. It's time to throw and Kyler is throwing a lot of needlessly quick passes when he isn't pressured. We have all seen that with our eyes. So it's not a great mystery.
 

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I'm breaking down what he is doing poorly when he is clean and when he is in control.

Many of his sacks were due to his poor play when people were open.

Were the O line great on Sunday with 2 starters out? No. But they were adequate. Far better than 3 points scored.

And yes, I have watched previous games and he was just as bad.
Who was debating this? Scrambling QBs will always run into sacks, just as they run away from them.
 

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the thing i dont understand. I think its pretty unlikely that you get to 7th overall in passing DVOA in 2021 without being able to read defenses at all

yet, based on the Seattle film, thats exactly what it looks like



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football karma

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Ever remember Kyler stepping up in the pocket, sliding to his left while keeping his form and his eyes down field?
yes

first TD vs Minnesota last year

second TD to Kirk vs Cleveland last year

thats just off the top of my head

that is the confounding thing about Kyler: while inconsistent, he was actually going through progressions for most of last year
 
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I'm not afraid to state something that might not be a popular opinion.


I am the one countering your point, and people are agreeing with me. There is a like button at the bottom to express agreement to an opinion you know.

I meant only looks left. I think you know what I meant, changed my post to read the actual opposite of what I said. Kudos.

You also said he didn't throw receivers open. I gave you the 'Why does he throw it long on 3rd and 1 waiting for receivers to get open?' You countered with that's not what I meant, as if I am wrong and distorted your literal words.


It has clear you have never played organized football, and clearly have a bias that keeps you from being objective. It's okay to have them, you should just throw that out there and state that so everyone knows. The difference between me and you is that I have admitted that I have been wrong or I might have been wrong.

You are using the logic of, 'Kyler's playing bad, so he must be bad on every play.'

A couple of staunch Kyler supporters liked your many posts.

I didn't say he doesn't throw receivers open. Now who is changing words? I said he cannot throw to receivers that aren't staring him down. He cannot throw on timing routes such as a simple comeback or an out route where the ball is already on the way before the receiver makes his break. Show me one and I'll eat my words.

I don't need to have played low level school football to understand the NFL game, which is not remotely similar.

I honestly find it incredulous that you are arguing THIS play was well quarterbacked. That throwing into 2 to 1 coverage for 5 yards with 30 yards available elsewhere is somehow good quarterback play that is worth $45m.

Would you expect Mahomes or Allen in that situation with a numbers mismatch to their right to take a 5 yard check down under no pressure to their left? Murray is paid more than both.

Does anyone else where look at that play and think "Well done Kyler? You got that one right".
 

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I love how you keep using hindsight to gain knowledge about a play like this to critique Kyler's play.

There's no debating that Kyler needs to improve, but this play wasn't one of them. Go use the second example you posted to slam Kyler, it is actually justified.

You keep stating facts like, he doesn't throw to receivers unless he is open, and he only looks left, but you are wrong and the stats prove otherwise.

You can keep going though. It isn't like you'd admit being wrong about an opinion anyway...
I agree that this play wasn't totally egregious in the micro.

Where I would disagree, is that Kyler is just looking for the first open man, and that is also really hurting the offense. Not a bad play, but it was an opportunity lost.

The question I would ask you is if Murray made this play 10 times a game and ignored the bigger play, how much does that hurt an offense? I don't know how to quantify that other than pointing at Murray's really low yards per completion or yards per attempt. He's playing very inefficiently, and the play that @BritCard demonstrated showed a big play right there that Kyler could have made that didn't require throwing the ball 30 yards down the field.
 

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I agree that this play wasn't totally egregious in the micro.

Where I would disagree, is that Kyler is just looking for the first open man, and that is also really hurting the offense. Not a bad play, but it was an opportunity lost.

The question I would ask you is if Murray made this play 10 times a game and ignored the bigger play, how much does that hurt an offense? I don't know how to quantify that other than pointing at Murray's really low yards per completion or yards per attempt. He's playing very inefficiently, and the play that @BritCard demonstrated showed a big play right there that Kyler could have made that didn't require throwing the ball 30 yards down the field.
Completely different debate, and the right one to be having.

You could argue that it might look the way that it is now. The counter to that, is that Kyler up until this year, has LOVED to take shots down the field. He did it often and was the best in the league at it for a time. So the question would be, 'What's changed?' The obvious answer is that Kyler, and Kliff aren't the same offense without D-Hop. It isn't that simple though.
 
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