Buyout Candidates

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Cast the statue! He might get a team into the playoffs for the first time in 8 seasons isn't the flex you think it is. Yes, it would be ideal if Ayton were always locked in, but even his mercurial self is more valuable than Sabonis.

Ayton may be inconsistent, but Sabonis hasn't proven to be anything more than empty calories.
This argument is funny because thus far the stats indicate Ayton is empty calories as well. And I’m a pro-keeping Ayton guy.
 

clyde2tw

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It'd be ideal if Ayton had Saric's court savvy. DA is what he is, it requires Monty's adjustment to use his strong side and hide his weakness
 

Mainstreet

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In regard to Ayton, when one gets into tiers it can become an argument of semantics when talking about the center position, especially when some of the players named, play more than one position.

Most sources I have viewed recently rank Ayton as a top ten center. In terms of true centers (play one position), Ayton may be even in the top five.

The consensus top two centers seem to be Jokic and Embiid.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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In regard to Ayton, when one gets into tiers it can become an argument of semantics when talking about the center position, especially when some of the players named, play more than one position.

Most sources I have viewed recently rank Ayton as a top ten center. In terms of true centers (play one position), Ayton may be even in the top five.

The consensus top two centers seem to be Jokic and Embiid.
But the argument we’ve been debating isn’t where Ayton ranks, it was that he equals or exceeds the “top tier” centers head to head. Which just isn’t accurate.
 

Hoop Head

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Cast the statue! He might get a team into the playoffs for the first time in 8 seasons isn't the flex you think it is. Yes, it would be ideal if Ayton were always locked in, but even his mercurial self is more valuable than Sabonis.

Ayton may be inconsistent, but Sabonis hasn't proven to be anything more than empty calories.

Sabonis was an All-Star this year, helping turn things around in Sacramento where they have a 17 year playoff drought. Ayton has had every opportunity to be an All-Star this year with Book being out and CP3 regressing. Jaren Jackson made the All-Star team too in the West and he was in Ayton's draft class. There's no excuse for Ayton's up and down performances. His first couple of years it was "let him develop, bigs take longer" and last year it was "he didn't get paid yet, wait until he's paid" and now he's on a max deal and players from his draft class that play the same position have leapfrogged him.
 
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JCSunsfan

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Sabonis was an All-Star this year, helping turn things around in Sacramento where they have a 17 year playoff drought. Ayton has had every opportunity to be an All-Star this year with Book being out and CP3 regressing. Jaren Jackson made the All-Star team too in the West and he was in Ayton's draft class. There's no excuse for Ayton's up and down performances. His first couple of years it was "let him develop, bigs take longer" and last year it was "he didn't get paid yet, wait until he's paid" and now he's on a max deal and players from his draft class that play the same position have leapfrogged him.
And still I would rather have Ayton than those two. And still I am frustrated with Ayton. Conflicted. Yes.

He has basketball smarts. He has the ability. It just kinda seems like he doesn't like basketball all that much.
 

Mainstreet

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But the argument we’ve been debating isn’t where Ayton ranks, it was that he equals or exceeds the “top tier” centers head to head. Which just isn’t accurate.

Basically the discussion comes down to a few true centers at the top and the rest.

After Jokic and Embiid there is a lot of room for discussion, especially when some of the candidates play more than one position.

Putting the centers in tiers is nebulous, unless one wants to split hairs about who follows.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Basically the discussion comes down to a few true centers at the top and the rest.

After Jokic and Embiid there is a lot of room for discussion, especially when some of the candidates play more than one position.

Putting the centers in tiers is nebulous, unless one wants to split hairs about who follows.
Again I didn’t bring up tiers. Whomever started this discussion said Ayton neutralizes or exceeds the top tier centers. That’s not a true statement.
 

Mainstreet

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Again I didn’t bring up tiers. Whomever started this discussion said Ayton neutralizes or exceeds the top tier centers. That’s not a true statement.

Hanging an argument over one word "tier" prevents a good discussion.
 

Mainstreet

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So. Any other buy out candidates or are we done?

I don't know how the Suns feel about Will Barton, John Wall and Stanley Johnson.

Unless the Suns have someone in mind, they may be done but wait until right before the deadline (when players are no longer eligible for the playoffs) before making a decision in case of injury.
 
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JCSunsfan

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I don't know how the Suns feel about Will Barton, John Wall and Stanley Johnson.

Unless the Suns have someone in mind, they may be done but wait until right before the deadline (when players are no longer eligible for the playoffs) before making a decision in case of injury.
Based upon the 9+ playoff discussion on the other thread, we would just be adding non playing end of bench types. No real point in that unless you can add a player that can break into the top 8.
 

Proximo

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Sabonis was an All-Star this year, helping turn things around in Sacramento where they have a 17 year playoff drought. Ayton has had every opportunity to be an All-Star this year with Book being out and CP3 regressing. Jaren Jackson made the All-Star team too in the West and he was in Ayton's draft class. There's no excuse for Ayton's up and down performances. His first couple of years it was "let him develop, bigs take longer" and last year it was "he didn't get paid yet, wait until he's paid" and now he's on a max deal and players from his draft class that play the same position have leapfrogged him.
If you put Ayton in the same situation as Sabonis he would do 25 and 12 also.

To me I take Ayton over Sabonis every single time.
 

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So. Any other buy out candidates or are we done?
I think we are done. But since they haven't yet signed Ish to the roster - they may have not decided for sure yet. Maybe going to wait a week or so to make sure nobody else gets bought out.
 

PHI PHX PHAN

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I stopped reading at your first couple comments because you said “top tier” but now want to move the goalposts all over the place. I mean ALL over the place. Your initial comment wasn’t accurate. It’s okay to admit it. We all get proven wrong on here at times.
Well you should've read further. I didn't move goal posts and all you did was use a metric that supports my argument more than anything.
You attempted to classify Ayton in a tier that lies somewhere between consistent MVP caliber players and the next tier.
Then you credit & discredit the players in that same tier accordingly to fit your narrative.
You kicked your own goal posts down.
You don't have to agree but also understand that I don't view your opinion as the pinnacle in sports opinions.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Hanging an argument over one word "tier" prevents a good discussion.
Okay, we are back in “words don’t matter” world. A good discussion necessitates proper and purposeful use of every word. Particularly when the very argument the poster was making literally hinges on that word, which was the case here.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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If you put Ayton in the same situation as Sabonis he would do 25 and 12 also.

To me I take Ayton over Sabonis every single time.
What about sabonis’ situation would cause Ayton’s rebounds to increase by 20%
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Well you should've read further. I didn't move goal posts and all you did was use a metric that supports my argument more than anything.
You attempted to classify Ayton in a tier that lies somewhere between consistent MVP caliber players and the next tier.
Then you credit & discredit the players in that same tier accordingly to fit your narrative.
You kicked your own goal posts down.
You don't have to agree but also understand that I don't view your opinion as the pinnacle in sports opinions.
A) I didn’t classify Ayton anywhere. Please quote where I did so.
B) you said he equals/exceeds top tier centers. He doesn’t.
C) you can take my opinions as you desire. I obviously believe your statement to be biased silliness.
 

PHI PHX PHAN

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A) I didn’t classify Ayton anywhere. Please quote where I did so.
B) you said he equals/exceeds top tier centers. He doesn’t.
C) you can take my opinions as you desire. I obviously believe your statement to be biased silliness.
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I’m sorry, isn’t an accurate statement.

I agree that preferred trading bridges to Ayton as Ayton is more difficult to replace. But he does not equal or exceed the production of top tier big men “more often than not.”

He routinely gets beaten by embiid
He routinely gets beaten by giannis
He has early success against jokic, but gets beat pretty soundly by him now.
Capella tends to outplay him abd I don’t consider capella “top tier.”
I believe he holds his own against KAT
I’m guessing Bam is a wash, but that one doesn’t stand out to me.
He is better/wash with sabonis, but sabonis is a tier below most of the “top tier.”

He’s better than Gobert, but I don’t consider him a too big anymore. And porzingas is just a giant wing.

Allen, woods, and Vucevic are good, but far from “top tier.”

And then we have to determine how we define “big.” If it includes Davis when healthy, no. Zion when healthy, no.

It’s okay to say Ayton is important to this team and admit he’s not on the level of the top bigs in the league.
A. This entire statement is classifying him into a tier that you continuously left ambiguous to fit your narrative (this is the loose goal post). You literally classified other guys into tiers and then opined where Ayton stood in regards to those players and their respective tiers. It's a round about and passive aggressive manner but it is

B. I was more definitive in my classification of tiers using the metric that you presented in the same post as opposed to leaving it ambiguous. BUT YOU STOPPED READING and want to exist in an echo chamber of your thoughts.

C. I take your opinions as exactly what they are...opinions. i just don't feel like yours is of some higher merit or validity than mine. I'm always up for the discussion about the differences tho.
 

Covert Rain

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A. This entire statement is classifying him into a tier that you continuously left ambiguous to fit your narrative (this is the loose goal post). You literally classified other guys into tiers and then opined where Ayton stood in regards to those players and their respective tiers. It's a round about and passive aggressive manner but it is

B. I was more definitive in my classification of tiers using the metric that you presented in the same post as opposed to leaving it ambiguous. BUT YOU STOPPED READING and want to exist in an echo chamber of your thoughts.

C. I take your opinions as exactly what they are...opinions. i just don't feel like yours is of some higher merit or validity than mine. I'm always up for the discussion about the differences tho.
Grouping players together who play the same position and comparing them if you want to get into semantics that's not tiering at all. Drawing direct comparisons as I read in his statement is not ambiguous either. He literally gave direct examples. You know what? Who cares. The ridiculousness of trying to debate "tier" here is the very definition of moving the goal post. The topic literally is how Ayton stacks up against other Centers.
 

Mainstreet

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Okay, we are back in “words don’t matter” world. A good discussion necessitates proper and purposeful use of every word. Particularly when the very argument the poster was making literally hinges on that word, which was the case here.

I mean...if you have to use 3 mvp candidate players (2 of which are multi MVP winners) as the initial metric then it sorta speaks to my point lol.
If the next tier down is KAT, Bam, Sabonis, Davis types then I think that's great company to be in.
I would describe that tier as "top" and the one above that as "elite".
Giannis and AD aren't centers so I wouldn't use them as comparisons in this regard.
Capella is a specialist type center like Gobert where they kinda have the luxury of not being asked to do much outside of control the paint.
Ayton gets the most criticism and least benefit of his peer group on this forum it seems.
Saying that roughly 3 names outside of the elite give him an occasional fit isn't a crazy indictment against him when they're probably raising their games in that match-up with him.
But every player has guys who aren't on their particular level that have good games against them.


Words matter but I think the above post by PHI PHX PHAN post was on target.

There doesn't need to be a winner and loser in these discussions. I try to look at the intent of the poster as well.

After Jokic and Embiid, it's mostly in the eye of the beholder.
 
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