2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[Mainstreet]

Well sign me up then. This team needs talent, and what they're doing instead is (a) drafting projects who suck and (b) overpaying veterans who suck worse.

Yeah. I'm not sure Wall is the right player but I don't want three more years of this stuff.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If the effort is there, he is a lock-down defender.

When he is healthy and in good mood, he is still a game-changing superstar. His contract, injuries, this season's shot-selection and demeanor on the court are getting scary.

I agree with this assessment. He is a very good defender.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree with this assessment. He is a very good defender.

He used to be. I don't know if it's the knee problems or effort but he hasn't been a good defender in a while now. He'd run the two man game well with Ayton and help turn him into a star but that's about the only positive I see with him. And if that's all we want then I'd just as soon see Goran back in town, at least he won't alienate his teammates.

 

[Sunburn]

Gambo is pushing Rozier for our top-3 protected pick. The impatience is really making people loopy.

Gambo is not intelligent, but I think a lot of what he says is just meant to be a hot take for monetary purposes.

 

[Yuma]

Gambo's an ex boxer. I listen when he talks MMA or boxing. Otherwise, what the hell does he know about basketball?

 

[GatorAZ]

Gambo's an ex boxer. I listen when he talks MMA or boxing. Otherwise, what the hell does he know about basketball?

That explains it. Too many shots to the head.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Gambo is pushing Rozier for our top-3 protected pick. The impatience is really making people loopy.

I wouldn't hesitate to trade that top 3 protected pick for a difference maker at the 1 or the 4 but I'm just not convinced Rozier is that guy. I don't watch a lot of Boston so maybe I'm selling him short but other than a short stretch in last year's playoffs, he's always reminded me of a poor man's Bledsoe. Our pick has to be worth more than that?

 

[Sunburn]

Lol at giving up our pick for Terry Rozier. He is not good. Makes no sense.

 

[overseascardfan]

I think Wall's antics are him trying to get traded out of WAS but yes he has always been a bit of a drama guy. Of course PHX is sort of in the same boat as WAS but the biggest incentive for Wall is the 15% trade kicker he would receive which would be a nice chunk of change. He isn't a shooter but is probably one of the true distributing PG's in the league and he can play defense (averages 1 bpg as a PG). Plus he is only 28, same age as Lillard but he won't cost nearly as much as Lillard in a trade, you can give up Ariza, Anderson and a pick and call it a day as WAS is going to need some cap relief.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I think Wall's antics are him trying to get traded out of WAS but yes he has always been a bit of a drama guy. Of course PHX is sort of in the same boat as WAS but the biggest incentive for Wall is the 15% trade kicker he would receive which would be a nice chunk of change. He isn't a shooter but is probably one of the true distributing PG's in the league and he can play defense (averages 1 bpg as a PG). Plus he is only 28, same age as Lillard but he won't cost nearly as much as Lillard in a trade, you can give up Ariza, Anderson and a pick and call it a day as WAS is going to need some cap relief.

Actually, looking at it purely from a salary perspective, we only need to give up one of Ariza or Anderson. Wall's salary extension hasn't kicked in yet so it's just 20M for this year. Anderson, for example, could do it solo. It also appears that Ariza can't be dealt until Jan 15th.

 

[GatorAZ]

I think Wall's antics are him trying to get traded out of WAS but yes he has always been a bit of a drama guy. Of course PHX is sort of in the same boat as WAS but the biggest incentive for Wall is the 15% trade kicker he would receive which would be a nice chunk of change. He isn't a shooter but is probably one of the true distributing PG's in the league and he can play defense (averages 1 bpg as a PG). Plus he is only 28, same age as Lillard but he won't cost nearly as much as Lillard in a trade, you can give up Ariza, Anderson and a pick and call it a day as WAS is going to need some cap relief.

The Suns would have to include Warren in the deal to help offset some of Wall’s Supermax the next 3-4 years. Anderson would only help cover this year and next. In this hypothetical I’m not including any picks because the Suns would need all available assets. There would be no conceivable way to sign free agents down the road.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Man I really wanted to stop talking about Wall but UGGH - I feel like I'm in bizarro world here. 47 million bucks in the last year of his contract? 9, count them, 9 significant injuries in his pro career along with at least 3 knee surgeries in the past couple of years. He used to play defense, he doesn't anymore. He used to be the fastest player on the court, he isn't anymore. He is reportedly reviled by multiple teammates, quick to blame and never accepts responsibility. He's ball dominant, sleeps standing up when he doesn't have the ball, has poor shot selection and is a sub par shooter. He's the leader of a team with high expectations, no excuses and the same record we have.

IMO, best case scenario if we trade for him, we'll be happy for a year or two and miserable afterwards. I think it's highly unlikely he remains an effective player for much longer.

 

[Phrazbit]

Rozier is going to be a free agent... trading for him would require massive protection on the pick and then we'd be stuck grossly overpaying him because that always happens when teams give up 1st round picks for a free agent to-be.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If we have to go after a Washington guard, I'd prefer Beal. Here's what Lowe said in their podcast when Woj asked him which guard would bring the best return "excerpt from a poster transcript (Jimmy Recard) on RealGM":

"Beal, it’s not even close. As soon as wall signed the super max that became true. I wrote this in one of my preview columns, teams should be sniffing around Brad Beal now. They should be talking illegally to his agent, they should be talking to the wizards, because if this thing breaks apart, John walls trade value is at an all time low because the super max kicks in next year and the numbers are almost literally eye popping. There are questions about his knees and his conditioning. Beal is really really good and on a contract that is very fair and a position if high value in the nba."

 

[Phrazbit]

Wall is an incredible player, IMO one of the most underrated guys in the league. But... that contract... good god. I just cannot see how a contender can be guilt when combining the cost of trading for him with him gobbling up 40% of your cap.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wall is an incredible player, IMO one of the most underrated guys in the league. But... that contract... good god. I just cannot see how a contender can be guilt when combining the cost of trading for him with him gobbling up 40% of your cap.

He's still a good player, I don't consider him incredible anymore unless he's just unmotivated and mailing it in. The best thing I can say about him is that he tends to step up his game in the postseason. But bad knees and his contract outweigh any positives he might still have IMO.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Man I really wanted to stop talking about Wall but UGGH - I feel like I'm in bizarro world here. 47 million bucks in the last year of his contract? 9, count them, 9 significant injuries in his pro career along with at least 3 knee surgeries in the past couple of years. He used to play defense, he doesn't anymore. He used to be the fastest player on the court, he isn't anymore. He is reportedly reviled by multiple teammates, quick to blame and never accepts responsibility. He's ball dominant, sleeps standing up when he doesn't have the ball, has poor shot selection and is a sub par shooter. He's the leader of a team with high expectations, no excuses and the same record we have.

IMO, best case scenario if we trade for him, we'll be happy for a year or two and miserable afterwards. I think it's highly unlikely he remains an effective player for much longer.

Co-sign

 

[Hoop Head]

Wouldn't any trade package for Wall look similar to a package for Kevin Love? I'm not a fan of acquiring Wall and if we're going all in on a good player/bad contract, I'd rather go for something a little more manageable. Ariza, Anderson, Warren, and the Bucks pick for Love and George Hill? I'd rather do that, I'm not sure about Cleveland. They might include Korver since he wants out, bad, and apparently had a handshake deal with the Cavs to trade him if Lebron left but he's still there. We could buy him out. Hill would fill our PG need and Love our PF hole. Hill, Booker, Bridges, Love, Ayton as our starting 5? That's better than what we have now. We could swap JJ with Warren, if needed and I might if that makes it happen. I'm not big on trading JJ but we would get our PG and PF while only giving up 1 part of our core, JJ.

 

[GatorAZ]

Trading trash for Wall >> trading a top-10 pick for Rozier

Terry Rozier simply doesn’t make anyone better. He’s just an upgraded scoring PG

 

[taz02]

If Wall has major injury issues I'd stay away but we should not pass on him because of salary. I normally don't feel that way but the suns are in a corner they need to make a move.

If this garbage continues and the suns plan is to take another flyer on a draft pick I'd be concerned that Booker will grow tired and want out. I know I would.

A PG that plays defense, scores 18 with 9 asts is exactly what the suns need. Getting a guy like that is going to cost us big time. If he had a decent salary there would be a bidding war and we'd have to part with major assets.

If Wall is healthy, wants to be here and can be had in a salary dump you have to make a move its exactly the type of aggressive move it will take.

 

[slinslin]

Wall could be as cheap was Ryan Anderson plus Milwaukee pick if Washington really wants to get out.

Maybe we could orchester another trade for Kevin Love centered around Warren and spare parts.


A) after Jan 23rd
Anderson, Jackson, Daniels, Milwaukee pick for Kevin Love, Kyle Korver

B) now
Warren, Bender, Okobo for John Wall, Jeff Green

that is the gist, maybe swap anderson with warren/bender adjust a little here and there, involve a third team whatever

Suddenly

Ayton/Holmes
Love/Green
Ariza/Bridges
Booker/Korver
Wall/Melton

Though this might run into tax complications in the last year of Wall

http://www.shamsports.com/capulator?id=14802394405be43147f41b1222446891

We wouldn't have capspace but we would also still be 20M$ under the luxury tax in 2022.

2023 would be dicey with Ayton and Bridges contracts starting and pay luxury tax one year when both Love and Wall expire at the end of the year

 

[overseascardfan]

Man I really wanted to stop talking about Wall but UGGH - I feel like I'm in bizarro world here. 47 million bucks in the last year of his contract? 9, count them, 9 significant injuries in his pro career along with at least 3 knee surgeries in the past couple of years. He used to play defense, he doesn't anymore. He used to be the fastest player on the court, he isn't anymore. He is reportedly reviled by multiple teammates, quick to blame and never accepts responsibility. He's ball dominant, sleeps standing up when he doesn't have the ball, has poor shot selection and is a sub par shooter. He's the leader of a team with high expectations, no excuses and the same record we have.

IMO, best case scenario if we trade for him, we'll be happy for a year or two and miserable afterwards. I think it's highly unlikely he remains an effective player for much longer.

I see your point but I really don’t see another way of getting a PG this year or next unless you are dealing core pieces and it seems like Sarver isn’t willing to do that. PHX can’t keep putting of acquiring a PG because then Booker and Ayton will want out and if that happens PHX will never be able to convince FAs to sign here.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I see your point but I really don’t see another way of getting a PG this year or next unless you are dealing core pieces and it seems like Sarver isn’t willing to do that. PHX can’t keep putting of acquiring a PG because then Booker and Ayton will want out and if that happens PHX will never be able to convince FAs to sign here.

Yeah, you might be right there but if I'm right, we're looking at doing nothing or making perhaps the worst mistake this franchise has ever made. If we absolutely have to make a horrible mistake, make one that won't haunt us for 6 seasons plus whatever franchise hangover occurs as a result (unhappy stars demanding trades etc).

 

[AzStevenCal]

Am I the only one unwilling to gamble on a player (any player, not just Wall) with questionable knees? After Eric and Stat, I don't want to go down that road ever again, at least not on purpose.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Am I the only one unwilling to gamble on a player (any player, not just Wall) with questionable knees? After Eric and Stat, I don't want to go down that road ever again, at least not on purpose.

I’m on the same page. I’d gamble on wall if it was only a single issue, but the aggregate of:

Relative age
Craptastic knees
Lack of leadership
Fading defense/lack of defensive effort (either way it’s a problem)
And redonkulous contract

Leave me as a solid no thanks.