2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[Mainstreet]

A well rounded point guard would be nice but at a minimum, he needs a backcourt running mate that is a threat with and without the ball.

The ability to penetrate and dish would be nice as well.

 

[Town Drunk]

Cameron Payne was waived by the Bulls tonight. 14th pick in the 2015 draft. He hasn’t shown much but the Suns have some roster spots open.

 

[1Sun]

Cameron Payne was waived by the Bulls tonight. 14th pick in the 2015 draft. He hasn’t shown much but the Suns have some roster spots open.

 

[Mainstreet]

I mentioned this on another thread as well. He has been injured a lot in his career but he was the 14th pick in 2015.

http://amicohoops.net/former-lottery-pick-payne-waived-by-bulls/

 

[JCSunsfan]

He's not the only one, I've been pushing for him for several months now.

I would love to have Kemba here, but I think getting him away from Charlotte will be very hard.

 

[Western Font]

Booker is not playing as well as we think lately. I have not been a Rubio fan throughout his career, but he looks to have the closest set of skills

He plays D. He can see the floor really well. He can pass the ball inside. He has enough of a shot. He is also in that sweet spot age wise. He is 28 so he will be mature for this bunch while having at least 5 good years left.

Yeah. I think Rubio would be my first one to pursue.

There are better possibilities on the list but I remain open and even optimistic about Rubio for us. With Booker, Ayton, and Warren on the floor you have a lot of scoring. With Bridges and Rubio you’d have defense, smarts, and facilitating. Swap Bridges for Jackson (if playing well) or an acquired PF for different looks.

Man I wish Bender were even okay.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I would love to have Kemba here, but I think getting him away from Charlotte will be very hard.

I really don't know but I could see it becoming a Cousins type issue. The Kings never wanted to move on from him despite the problems. They finally did because they didn't want to pay the super max for him and now, Charlotte has the same problem. He's not worth a super max, as I've said before, I'm not sure any player today is (maybe Giannis?). But the agents appear to be treating it as a promise; all a player has to do is qualify regardless of what the player is really worth.

 

[Western Font]

Interesting you listed Klay. While that is a pipe dream I have heard rumblings they might let Draymond walk because of the problems he's caused with Durant. Of course if KD goes then Green most likely stays but it depends on how they handle things. I think Green is the type to feel slighted if they pursue KD first and in that case I'd throw all of our money at Green. He'd solve our PF problem and help us field a less than great starting PG because of his playmaking. Not ideal but a possibility, more so than Butler or Klay, IMO.

It’s not quite Emmit Smith to the Cards, but we’d likely have to give Green years and would end up paying for decline. I also worry he’d go from secret sauce in GS to frustrated and inefficient in Phoenix. Maybe I’m way off, but it makes me nervous.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There are better possibilities on the list but I remain open and even optimistic about Rubio for us. With Booker, Ayton, and Warren on the floor you have a lot of scoring. With Bridges and Rubio you’d have defense, smarts, and facilitating. Swap Bridges for Jackson (if playing well) or an acquired PF for different looks.

I don't follow him closely but Rubio seems overrated on defense to me. He shows well when he has a strong rim protector but his defensive rating isn't that great when he doesn't have that shot blocker.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It’s not quite Emmit Smith to the Cards, but we’d likely have to give Green years and would end up paying for decline. I also worry he’d go from secret sauce in GS to frustrated and inefficient in Phoenix. Maybe I’m way off, but it makes me nervous.

He's 28 so he probably should stay relevant throughout most of his next contract (at a minimum) but I'd also be wary of signing him. And his lack of offense would make a scoring point guard almost a necessity I would think.

 

[95pro]

I don't follow him closely but Rubio seems overrated on defense to me. He shows well when he has a strong rim protector but his defensive rating isn't that great when he doesn't have that shot blocker.

It's like a center who blocks shots but is bad on defense, same with Rubio. He has steals but is still a bad one on one defender. They used to make it point to attack him when he was on the Wolves. He has since improved although still overrated in that aspect of his game.

 

[Western Font]

I don't follow him closely but Rubio seems overrated on defense to me. He shows well when he has a strong rim protector but his defensive rating isn't that great when he doesn't have that shot blocker.

Admittedly my perception of what constitutes defense might be watered-down after watching most of the games this year...

 

[AzStevenCal]

Admittedly my perception of what constitutes defense might be watered-down after watching most of the games this year...

Yeah by that standard he's Gary Payton.

 

[devilalum]

Yeah by that standard he's Gary Payton.

I was just thinking the Suns would be pretty much complete with a young Gary Payton.


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[AzStevenCal]

I was just thinking the Suns would be pretty much complete with a young Gary Payton.

Yeah, even if he insisted on bringing 25 year old Shawn Kemp with him.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah, even if he insisted on bringing 25 year old Shawn Kemp with him.

We almost had a 25 year old Shawn Kemp in Chriss but he had the mentality of 35 year old Cleveland Cavalier Shawn Kemp.

Gary Payton Jr is available still. He played for the Bucks and Lakers last year. He's part of the reason J-Kidd got fired as the Bucks coach. He wouldn't quit playing Payton Jr so the team cut him and fired Kidd not long after. Payton was mentioned as one of the reasons. Kidd was starting him despite having Bledsoe and Brogdon available.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We almost had a 25 year old Shawn Kemp in Chriss but he had the mentality of 35 year old Cleveland Cavalier Shawn Kemp.

Gary Payton Jr is available still. He played for the Bucks and Lakers last year. He's part of the reason J-Kidd got fired as the Bucks coach. He wouldn't quit playing Payton Jr so the team cut him and fired Kidd not long after. Payton was mentioned as one of the reasons. Kidd was starting him despite having Bledsoe and Brogdon available.

Just to be sure, you are aware that we were waxing nostalgic about THE Gary Payton, not the son of?

 

[Hoop Head]

Just to be sure, you are aware that we were waxing nostalgic about THE Gary Payton, not the son of?

Yeah, fully aware. I knew that you guys were talking about Gary Sr. I mentioned Gary Jr specifically because Gary's son is available and he'd probably be an upgrade to what we have at PG. I didn't watch him in Milwaukee much but he is a PG also. He's more like Stockton's kid though as far as being more of a G-League talent than NBA talent. For some reason though Kidd was a big fan of his and gave him more playing time and opportunities in Milwaukee than he probably deserved. Kidd might have owed Payton Sr some cash or something.

 

[Proximo]

So...who's to blame?

Well, I would say primarily the players lack of passing skills, and inability to effectively ISO.

I know you want me to say Igor - but I just don't agree with that. If for instance Ayton could catch the ball 14 ft out and be able to effectively make his way towards the basket ala Embid we could run the offense through him very effectively.

If we had a guard very good at penetration we could run effective pick and roll with them.

But look at our options - Ayton I already described

Josh jackson is a mediocre ball handler, and a lousy finisher. That doesn't work.

Mikal simply stinks at creating his own shot - that doesn't work.

Holmes is only able to finish within 6 feet of the basket - that doesn't work

Melton is not good at driving nor is he a good shooter or passer - that doesn't work

Okobo is streaky - but generally is also not a good shooter or passer or penetrator - that doesn't work

Crawford can get off a 15-20 foot shot consistently - but shoots it at a low percentage and is terrible at getting layups - that doesn't work

Oubre - not a good passer, not an efficient scorer, basically he is clean up the junk player ala a poor man's Ceballos - that doesn't work

Warren - he is able to ISO somewhat, and is in my opinion way underutilized. With that said he is a guy that kind of needs to have a running start. Just giving him the ball at the top of the key and expecting him to beat his man from there he is not particularly good at. Also his ability to pass is putrid, if he is shut down, you are looking at a turnover. But of all the options, he is our second best to Booker.

That is my impression - since you are so much smarter than Igor - please tell me how you would run the offense.

 

[Hoop Head]

The good news for the people that want someone to blame for the Suns woes is that the person responsible for the majority of them is no longer with the team because he was fired a week before the season started, McD. It's clear to see now why he was fired. He assembled this roster, as lopsided as it is. I know that won't please some people that there isn't a whipping boy currently employed so they can demand he be fired but it's true.

The fault doesn't go to James Jones or Trevor Bukstein either, even though they are splitting GM duties on the interim. Jones has managed to bring in Jamal Crawford, good signing, and also worked on the trade for Oubre. They've had to clean up the mess McD made and do so at a time of the year when teams don't make trades, generally. Once they were able to trade away McD's big offseason acquisition though they did and added another nice young player who is a versatile wing, similar to what we thought we were getting Ariza minus the experience. Other than that they haven't been able to do a lot because not a lot has been happening as far as moves go and now it makes no sense to make a trade that would hinder our ability to sign free agents this summer because we're not competing for a playoff spot, we're competing for ping pong balls.

Anyone willing to lay the blame on Igor for how the team has been this year is looking at things wrong. They've played well once they got rid of the cancerous pieces that McD had brought in or kept too long, Ariza and Chandler and you can probably add Canaan to that list also. However asking Igor to do more with this team without an NBA quality PG or a starting quality PF is like asking a chef to make you a good steak but you gave him an unseasoned piece of beef and hid all of the spices from him. He can cook it but it's not going to taste like it was made by a top chef because you didn't provide him with any ingredients to season it.

 

[1Sun]

Well, I would say primarily the players lack of passing skills, and inability to effectively ISO.

I know you want me to say Igor - but I just don't agree with that. If for instance Ayton could catch the ball 14 ft out and be able to effectively make his way towards the basket ala Embid we could run the offense through him very effectively.

If we had a guard very good at penetration we could run effective pick and roll with them.

But look at our options - Ayton I already described

Josh jackson is a mediocre ball handler, and a lousy finisher. That doesn't work.

Mikal simply stinks at creating his own shot - that doesn't work.

Holmes is only able to finish within 6 feet of the basket - that doesn't work

Melton is not good at driving nor is he a good shooter or passer - that doesn't work

Okobo is streaky - but generally is also not a good shooter or passer or penetrator - that doesn't work

Crawford can get off a 15-20 foot shot consistently - but shoots it at a low percentage and is terrible at getting layups - that doesn't work

Oubre - not a good passer, not an efficient scorer, basically he is clean up the junk player ala a poor man's Ceballos - that doesn't work

Warren - he is able to ISO somewhat, and is in my opinion way underutilized. With that said he is a guy that kind of needs to have a running start. Just giving him the ball at the top of the key and expecting him to beat his man from there he is not particularly good at. Also his ability to pass is putrid, if he is shut down, you are looking at a turnover. But of all the options, he is our second best to Booker.

That is my impression - since you are so much smarter than Igor - please tell me how you would run the offense.

I'd run it alternatively through Ayton in the low post or through Booker with dribble penetration. Igor's system of playing Ayton in the high post and just passing the ball around the perimeter is way too similar to Sean Miller's offensive system at the U of A that failed miserably last season.

 

[1Sun]

The good news for the people that want someone to blame for the Suns woes is that the person responsible for the majority of them is no longer with the team because he was fired a week before the season started, McD. It's clear to see now why he was fired. He assembled this roster, as lopsided as it is. I know that won't please some people that there isn't a whipping boy currently employed so they can demand he be fired but it's true.

The fault doesn't go to James Jones or Trevor Bukstein either, even though they are splitting GM duties on the interim. Jones has managed to bring in Jamal Crawford, good signing, and also worked on the trade for Oubre. They've had to clean up the mess McD made and do so at a time of the year when teams don't make trades, generally. Once they were able to trade away McD's big offseason acquisition though they did and added another nice young player who is a versatile wing, similar to what we thought we were getting Ariza minus the experience. Other than that they haven't been able to do a lot because not a lot has been happening as far as moves go and now it makes no sense to make a trade that would hinder our ability to sign free agents this summer because we're not competing for a playoff spot, we're competing for ping pong balls.

Anyone willing to lay the blame on Igor for how the team has been this year is looking at things wrong. They've played well once they got rid of the cancerous pieces that McD had brought in or kept too long, Ariza and Chandler and you can probably add Canaan to that list also. However asking Igor to do more with this team without an NBA quality PG or a starting quality PF is like asking a chef to make you a good steak but you gave him an unseasoned piece of beef and hid all of the spices from him. He can cook it but it's not going to taste like it was made by a top chef because you didn't provide him with any ingredients to season it.

They played well for 7 games, and now they are back to playing as poorly as they ever have played this season.

 

[Errntknght]

No one has mentioned Tyus Jones of the Wolves for some time. I don't think the team is trying to move him but he's got to be pretty unhappy with his situation - he's playing behind Rose and Teague so he's not really getting to show what he can do. He's never been a big time scorer but he's rated as a solid 7th on DPRM and his Ast/TO rating is currently 6.1 - tops in the league. That is half the turnovers for many of the top-rated PGs in the league, and one third the TO's for anyone playing at the position for us, or who is trying to make plays from other positions. By comparison he is going to a marvel of efficiency. I can't tell you he is going to feed Ayton in the low post efficiently because that is not KAT's game, but whatever passing he does, he does well.
I think he will really come to life here where he can literally walk away with the starting job on day 1.
I didn't dig into his full Analytics but in the video below, the guy who put it together did and they were pretty much superior to Teague's, across the board. He helps his team win.

NBA Obvious Outliers 2017-2018 Season: Tyus Jones Starter In Waiting - YouTube

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns may have competition in finding a point guard.

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[Hoop Head]

The Suns may have competition in finding a point guard.

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They have VanVleet and Delon Wright, how many more PG's do they need? Greedy Canucks.