OT: Kyler Murray Debacle Thread

[DVontel]

You guys know you won’t change the other ones’ minds, so I find it hilarious the back & forth is still heavy, lol.

 

[BritCard]

It is a lot of the same excuses every year BritCard. You're right.

And I think it perhaps strains credibility to say our franchise has failed to put sufficient talent around him during the majority of his career here. Nevertheless, I believe that to be the case. I think I'm being intellectually honest when I say that.

Not 2019. And not 2022 to present. Primarily, primarily, because of the lack of a true WR1. If you think I'm wrong, okay, that's fine.

2024 was close. We had a fine rushing attack, BPT, oline was playing better etc. And, Murray wasn't bad. The stats bear that out.

Also, I'll concede the pass blocking this year might be average, but won't you agree that, without the threat of a running game, the defense can shift additional resources to pass defense? And also that MHJ is not nearly performing like a true WR1?

And what about a deep threat? Or a WR that can get us some YAC?

Britcard... I'm honestly trying to be objective man. I know it's the same excuses year after year, but I honestly don't think K1 is in a position to succeed right now. If you do, fine, we'll agree to disagree.

We're not criticising Kyler because we're not winning or even because the offense is bad. We're criticising him because Kyler has an individual has been horrible.

This O line is not average, it's top 10 in pass pro. If not higher. It was Kliff, so we changed, and now it's Drew. It was the O line, it's much better, and still it's not enough. He needed a good defence, we have one, still not enough. It's WR, we draft one of the best in a decade, still not enough.

If these things are still not enough, have you considered Kyler is the issue?

 

[BritCard]

You guys know you won’t change the other ones’ minds, so I find it hilarious the back & forth is still heavy, lol.

Gotta do something while sat at the in laws and I finished X.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

The QBs that had all these things in their career you can count on your fingers.

If he needs all these things he sucks. Good QBs succeed without these things. Josh Allen has Khalil Shakir, a very mediocre Keon Coleman and Mack Hollins.

The constant excuse making every year is tedious.

PS what Clutch plays has Kyler made? Two games we led comfortably the whole game and the other two were piss poor and never led.

You pointing at the top performing QB in the league as an example of how all QBs should perform is not very compelling I'm afraid.

Clutch plays:

1. Led the game tying drive vs. SEA? Made all the plays necessary to get us back to even? That's at least a little clutch?

2. Put the biscuit in the basket at the end of the SF game. If Zay just makes a normal catch, we're 3-1 right now. That was a clutch throw if there ever was one.

 

[BritCard]

You pointing at the top performing QB in the league as an example of how all QBs should perform is not very compelling I'm afraid.

Clutch plays:

1. Led the game tying drive vs. SEA? Made all the plays necessary to get us back to even? That's at least a little clutch?

2. Put the biscuit in the basket at the end of the SF game. If Zay just makes a normal catch, we're 3-1 right now. That was a clutch throw if there ever was one.

We have a different idea of clutch.

I'm pointing at Allen as one example, there are many. But if Kyler has the talent you believe why can't he do it?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

We have a different idea of clutch.

I'm pointing at Allen as one example, there are many. But if Kyler has the talent you believe why can't he do it?

Britcard if you think K1 is currently in a position to be successful, great. I do not.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It is a lot of the same excuses every year BritCard. You're right.

And I think it perhaps strains credibility to say our franchise has failed to put sufficient talent around him during the majority of his career here. Nevertheless, I believe that to be the case. I think I'm being intellectually honest when I say that.

Not 2019. And not 2022 to present. Primarily, primarily, because of the lack of a true WR1. If you think I'm wrong, okay, that's fine.

2024 was close. We had a fine rushing attack, BPT, oline was playing better etc. And, Murray wasn't bad. The stats bear that out.

You just made the strongest case against Murray and didn’t even realize it. When you can say we had a fine rushing attack (it was one of the best in the league), BLP, o-line was better, had one of the best TE in the league and despite not living up to the hype, had what amounted to a #2 WR, and the best you can say about the QB with all that going for him is “Murray wasn’t bad”… that ain’t good enough. Period. If you’re a GOOD QB and you have a great rushing attack, a great TE and another 880 yard WR, you should be flat out GOOD, if not great.

 

[BritCard]

Britcard if you think K1 is currently in a position to be successful, great. I do not.

He is absolutely in a position to be successful. In fact, the expectation from everyone preseason is that he had upgrades in all these areas and would build on an offense that I believe finished 12th in DVOA.

He's worse than last year. Far worse. The offense has gone backwards. His passing was poor last year (7.1 YPA and 221 per game) and it's 20% down through 4 games.

The excuses will never end.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Britcard if you think K1 is currently in a position to be successful, great. I do not.

You never think he is.

And here’s the reality… a GOOD QB creates success for others. They’re not wholly dependent on everyone else their entire careers for the success of their own.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

final offer - trey mcbride and kyler murray for burrows

 

[ASUCHRIS]

final offer - trey mcbride and kyler murray for burrows

Without thinking twice.

 

[DVontel]

final offer - trey mcbride and kyler murray for burrows

Nah

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Nah

Insane. A QB with negative value and a great TE for a top 5 QB? Sign me up.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

You just made the strongest case against Murray and didn’t even realize it. When you can say we had a fine rushing attack (it was one of the best in the league), BLP, o-line was better, had one of the best TE in the league and despite not living up to the hype, had what amounted to a #2 WR, and the best you can say about the QB with all that going for him is “Murray wasn’t bad”… that ain’t good enough. Period. If you’re a GOOD QB and you have a great rushing attack, a great TE and another 880 yard WR, you should be flat out GOOD, if not great.

No. Last year we did not have legitimate WR1 or WR2s, and Dorch is a poor man's WR3.

And despite that Statistically Murray was above average last year. 9th best QBR in the league.

Like I said Cheese, if you think K1 is in a position to be successful, and all we need to do to have a successful passing game is change QBs, I don’t think that’s necessarily unreasonable.

But I disagree. Okay?

 

[602 Native]

He is absolutely in a position to be successful. In fact, the expectation from everyone preseason is that he had upgrades in all these areas and would build on an offense that I believe finished 12th in DOVA.

Only people that don’t know ball believed this you being one.

MO is the other fool that thought this as well.

 

[602 Native]

You just made the strongest case against Murray and didn’t even realize it. When you can say we had a fine rushing attack (it was one of the best in the league), BLP, o-line was better, had one of the best TE in the league and despite not living up to the hype, had what amounted to a #2 WR, and the best you can say about the QB with all that going for him is “Murray wasn’t bad”… that ain’t good enough. Period. If you’re a GOOD QB and you have a great rushing attack, a great TE and another 880 yard WR, you should be flat out GOOD, if not great.

It was one of the best in the league against crap teams.

 

[DVontel]

Insane. A QB with negative value and a great TE for a top 5 QB? Sign me up.

Kyler, a 2nd, & Wilson for Burrow sounds much better. Sure, he’s not a QB, but why the hell would we give up a game breaker & the best player on our entire team? We would want Burrow to continue to have top weapons, not get rid of them.
Burrow also has had 3 season-ending injuries in just 6 seasons.

 

[DVontel]

Cincy needs defense so throw Budda in there too.

 

[cardncubfan]

We’re 12 points away from 0-4 having played two of the worst teams in the league.

We're 6 points away from being 4-0.

 

[602 Native]

LOL

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[Crimson Warrior]

We're not criticising Kyler because we're not winning or even because the offense is bad. We're criticising him because Kyler has an individual has been horrible.

This O line is not average, it's top 10 in pass pro. If not higher. It was Kliff, so we changed, and now it's Drew. It was the O line, it's much better, and still it's not enough. He needed a good defence, we have one, still not enough. It's WR, we draft one of the best in a decade, still not enough.

If these things are still not enough, have you considered Kyler is the issue?

Of course I have BritCard.

But what I said in my original post is that I honestly think right now there's too much dysfunction around our QB1 to objectively evaluate his performance.

I'm saying there's a correlation between a passer's performance and:

1. A team's WR1 performance
2. A team's ability to run the ball
3. A team's ability to generate YAC
4. A WR corps' ability to stretch the field
5. A team's ability to pass-block.
6. A team's ability to scheme an effective passing game

You say were very good at #5. Eh.

I just watched every pass play from the SEA game again. The pass protection was not good. It wasn't terrible, but SEA consistently collapsed the pocket with just four, and harried K1 most of the night.

Now, SEA is a very good, maybe great, defense. And, our pass blocking was pretty good vs. CAR I thought, and not bad vs. SF. I agree our line is better at that phase of the game. But it's still nothing to write home about. vs. NO for example, there were way too many free runners at Murray.

And then of course, bad run game, bad WR1, questionable OC, no deep threat, no YAC generally (Dortch did have some on the two TD drives vs. SEA surprisingly).

So no. No I'm not ready to give up on Murray because of ADoT or air yards, or YPC.

I'm not giving up on him until we upgrade the Oline and WR room at least a little (and maybe the OC). Or at least until those two groups start playing better than they are now.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Only people that don’t know ball believed this you being one.

MO is the other fool that thought this as well.

I think we had to fix the defense first, and MO tried to do that. It's seems to have worked to some degree.

I know were were/are still sitting on some cap space though.

But if MO makes a big effort to improve the offense this upcoming offseason, I think I could live with that plan.

 

[Shane]

We're 6 points away from being 4-0.

Isn’t it only 4?

 

[oaken1]

Bad WR1. Bad running game. Bad OC. Bad Oline (overall).

I'll concede the pass blocking might be average, but how does the

1. Passing game scheme,
2. poor WR1 performance,
3. no threat of a rushing attack
4. lack of a legitimate deep threat WR

affect the passing games performance? Some? a lot?

Yes Cheese. I'm sitting here in front of god and everybody and saying that Murray is not in a fair situation right now.

If you think he's in an environment where he can be objectively evaluated, fine. We'll agree to disagree.

P.S. - of course your right about the clutch late season thing, but we haven't even gotten to that point yet. And anyway, K1 has made a few clutch plays this year already. So maybe, just maybe, that's starting to turn around some.

I sincerely hope you're otherwise well today, and having a nice weekend, despite the unappetizing prospect of at least 30 more games with K1 as your QB1.

None of those points affect anything when kyler has a clean pocket and two guys downfield with 3 yards of separation and still checks it down.
It's inexcusable.
My tired old fat ass could out pass kyler in some of these situations.

When it comes to pushing the ball downfield kyler doesn't have one to push...not a single ball.

 

[oaken1]

No. Last year we did not have legitimate WR1 or WR2s, and Dorch is a poor man's WR3.

And despite that Statistically Murray was above average last year. 9th best QBR in the league.

Like I said Cheese, if you think K1 is in a position to be successful, and all we need to do to have a successful passing game is change QBs, I don’t think that’s necessarily unreasonable.

But I disagree. Okay?

He only had that qbr because he throws the 3 yard checkdown instead of the 20 yard pass to a wide open receiver.
Period.
He runs out of bounds for a loss in order to protect his completion percentage.
Period.
Everything kyler does on the field is to keep himself statistically looking good instead of doing everything he can to help the team win.
Period.

That's exactly who kyler Murray is.and it's not acceptable as a starting qb on my team.
Period.