Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[kerouac9]

I think I just showed you two with mahomes and Allen. And realistically if Watson hadn’t been a sleaze he was proving to be a third. Then there are the later first round QBs like Lamar Jackson. Still definitely considered a QBOF when drafted.

The rookie QB is such a crapshoot that even if you get one high (as you point out, Trey lance went 3rd, Zach Wilson went 2nd) it doesn’t guarantee anything. So it’s ultimately about a combination of (1) talent identification; (2) availability; and (3) ability to get the pick necessary to make the selection. I’ve been talking about #3 and I’m pretty confident I’ve made a solid case.

Only Mahomes was traded for.

The challenge is getting a guy who will upgrade from Kyler.

 

[DaHilg]

Almost zero NFL has a pristine O-Line down the stretch. That is a constant. Good QBs don’t all crinkle like toilet paper under those circumstances.

Don’t let your narrative of gushing fanboi love for a career loser paint an incorrect picture.

Simply isn’t true.. remove 2-3 Oline starters from almost anytime and they will absolutely get dismantled. Ask Pat Mahomes when they faced the Bucs in the Superbowl. But keep going with your unsupported claims so you can trash Kyler more.. it’s sad, I even prefaced the comment with “Kyler’s been bad down the stretch”.

 

[DaHilg]

I don’t hate Kyler. I just don’t believe he has the mental makeup to take the next step.

And virtually every team has injuries down the stretch of a season. I doubt that the Cardinals are a massive outlier in that regard consistently over every one of Kyler’s seasons.

Kyler certainly might not have the mental make-up. Hard to get a for certain picture based on the variables that have compounded his poor play.

I think we can all agree that his biggest weakness is he falls completely apart when pressured in the middle….Our IOL has never been good in pass pro, never had depth, never had a star, and for the most part has always been a injury rotation of scraps nobody wanted. I don’t see any other QBs in the league succeeding with a similar roster composition!?!?

With that said - maybe if we fixed the IOL and had a #2 WR, maybe Kyler would still suck. But I have no clue because he’s never had this in his tenure with AZ? Closest he had this was an 8 game stretch in 2021.. and he looked pretty good then.

 

[DVontel]

Kyler isn’t capable of hanging tough in the pocket and throwing darts with pressure in his face. He’s a panicker because of his size. It’s not his fault.

For once our defense might be good enough to offset the fading QB play down the stretch. He’s never had a great defensive supporting cast. 2021 had a chance before Watt got hurt and Chandler fell off.

Pretty much all of this.


I’ll take it a step further. Based on potential, this is probably the best defense has looked on paper since 2013/Arians’ first year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Kyler certainly might not have the mental make-up. Hard to get a for certain picture based on the variables that have compounded his poor play.

I think we can all agree that his biggest weakness is he falls completely apart when pressured in the middle….Our IOL has never been good in pass pro, never had depth, never had a star, and for the most part has always been a injury rotation of scraps nobody wanted. I don’t see any other QBs in the league succeeding with a similar roster composition!?!?

With that said - maybe if we fixed the IOL and had a #2 WR, maybe Kyler would still suck. But I have no clue because he’s never had this in his tenure with AZ? Closest he had this was an 8 game stretch in 2021.. and he looked pretty good then.

Horse Manure. What was his excuse in 2020 when we were 6-3 and had a good running game, a healthy Nuk, a solid 2 with Kirk and an okay 3 with Larry and Kyler completely crapped the bed down his usual 2-5 stretch, including back to back clinch and you’re in playoff games, one of them AT HOME AGAINST THE NINERS 3RD STRING QB in SF’s 4-12 season from hell for them and then lost on the road to a Steve Wofford led Rams team that was pathetic on offense.

 

[kerouac9]

Horse Manure. What was his excuse in 2020 when we were 6-3 and had a good running game, a healthy Nuk, a solid 2 with Kirk and an okay 3 with Larry and Kyler completely crapped the bed down his usual 2-5 stretch, including back to back clinch and you’re in playoff games, one of them AT HOME AGAINST THE NINERS 3RD STRING QB in SF’s 4-12 season from hell for them and then lost on the road to a Steve Wofford led Rams team that was pathetic on offense.

That was Kliff’s fault obviously

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Horse Manure. What was his excuse in 2020 when we were 6-3 and had a good running game, a healthy Nuk, a solid 2 with Kirk and an okay 3 with Larry and Kyler completely crapped the bed down his usual 2-5 stretch, including back to back clinch and you’re in playoff games, one of them AT HOME AGAINST THE NINERS 3RD STRING QB in SF’s 4-12 season from hell for them and then lost on the road to a Steve Wofford led Rams team that was pathetic on offense.

Something . . . something . . . anyone but kyler’s fault.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Kyler isn’t capable of hanging tough in the pocket and throwing darts with pressure in his face. He’s a panicker because of his size. It’s not his fault.

Didn't his former o-line coach say he was scared of running, one of his biggest strengths? I can understand being afraid of being hit by 300lb monsters, but unfortunately that's in the job description.

 

[gimpy]

Didn't his former o-line coach say he was scared of running, one of his biggest strengths? I can understand being afraid of being hit by 300lb monsters, but unfortunately that's in the job description.

He's scared of running?
Or, he just didn't want to run?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

He's scared of running?
Or, he just didn't want to run?

Here's the quote:

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[Mulli]

People really carry those seasons around with them?

LET IT GO?

 

[Stout]

Ya context means nothing to the IHKC.. he’s been bad down the stretch but once again there’s been variables, primarily injuries and Hopkins suspension we can point to. This team has never had Oline depth or WR depth.

Excuses. Yes, that's all you have--excuses. We're not talking one season, or two. If so, then yes, other variables are relevant. As Ouchie said, there is only one constant, and he is a choke artist. That is beyond undeniable.

 

[DaHilg]

Excuses. Yes, that's all you have--excuses. We're not talking one season, or two. If so, then yes, other variables are relevant. As Ouchie said, there is only one constant, and he is a choke artist. That is beyond undeniable.

Happy Mothers Day Stouty

 

[Stout]

Happy Mothers Day Stouty

Hope you and yours have a good one

 

[BirdGangThing]

far as time of possession goes we ranked 21st last year - two obvious reasons - defense couldn't get off the field - offense couldn't stay on it (until it didn't matter) - i suspect or top was acually worse because kyler thrives in the meaningless come back garbage time - regardless we still only had the ball for 29 minutes a game

i think we all think our top will improve this year simply with what we've added on defense - and while we didn't improve the offense it is their second year together - i think the logic is they can only get better

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's scared of running?
Or, he just didn't want to run?

What’s the difference if the end result is the same?

 

[BirdGangThing]

had to look it up but he did run the ball last year

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[kerouac9]

far as time of possession goes we ranked 21st last year - two obvious reasons - defense couldn't get off the field - offense couldn't stay on it (until it didn't matter) - i suspect or top was acually worse because kyler thrives in the meaningless come back garbage time - regardless we still only had the ball for 29 minutes a game

i think we all think our top will improve this year simply with what we've added on defense - and while we didn't improve the offense it is their second year together - i think the logic is they can only get better

People have obsessed over time of possession for two years now. It doesn't vary much.

The 2024 Arizona Cardinals were DFL in # of drives (168). The #1 team in drives was Cleveland.

Cards were 21st in time of possession last season (29:32). The worst team (Jacksonville) had 27 minutes of possession, the best team (Philly) had 32.

Eight of the top 10 teams in TOP made the playoffs last year. I think that's a function of good teams running out the clock with a lead at end of games than anything else.

 

[BirdGangThing]

Eight of the top 10 teams in TOP made the playoffs last year. I think that's a function of good teams running out the clock with a lead at end of games than anything else.

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[kerouac9]

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No one is saying that. The difference is whether teams win with more time of possession or winning teams have more time of possession.

This is the same thing as correlation not being causation when it comes to rushing attempts and victories. You run when you win; not you win when you run.

 

[BirdGangThing]

No one is saying that. The difference is whether teams win with more time of possession or winning teams have more time of possession.

This is the same thing as correlation not being causation when it comes to rushing attempts and victories. You run when you win; not you win when you run.

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[MrYeahBut]

I'm just waiting for this thread to hit 200 pages before I read it.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yeah, I'm not open to that.

I know we like Gannon and Monti so much, but they came in here expressing how much they loved Kyler and how sure they were he was the guy to lead us to the promised land. Why should we trust them to make the decision again?

If Monti and Gannon go 9-8 this season, they'll be 21-30 through three seasons. It would take them ANOTHER year just to get to .500 (and then they'd assuredly be fired).

Monti hasn't identified one outstanding starter. Not one! Why do you think he could find a plus starter at quarterback? He identified Clayton Tune, who has been so good we just invested $6.5 million guaranteed in a backup quarterback whose attempted 184 passes in the past two years! He brought/helped bring Joshua Dobbs into two different organizations! He was part of a front office who drafted Malik Willis in the third round.

Unfortunately, we're probably not getting a quarterback without suffering another horrible season. We can't cut Kyler until 2028; we can only trade him. Would anyone have traded for Kyler Murray this offseason if he'd been on the block? Would we have been able to get a top 15 pick for him?

Bleak times.

I guess here is where I am confused. I don't believe we differ in terms of what type of QB Kyler is. I feel you are also saying it is not necessarily easy to find an upgrade, which is ultimately my point. I don't believe it will be easy to find an upgrade at QB over Kyler even if I don't believe Kyler is the guy to win us a playoff game. Because of that, it is what it is until Monti decides to roll the dice and make a move for a better QB (draft or trade). I am just not going to get worked up when Kyler is the player he is.

 

[Mulli]

You don’t have any choice but to trust them. Suffer in silence because no one in the organization is listening to you, my bruth

 

[kerouac9]

I guess here is where I am confused. I don't believe we differ in terms of what type of QB Kyler is. I feel you are also saying it is not necessarily easy to find an upgrade, which is ultimately my point. I don't believe it will be easy to find an upgrade at QB over Kyler even if I don't believe Kyler is the guy to win us a playoff game. Because of that, it is what it is until Monti decides to roll the dice and make a move for a better QB (draft or trade). I am just not going to get worked up when Kyler is the player he is.

Oh, I want to be Mad Online about it. Gotta get all these feelings out.