OT: Kyler Murray Debacle Thread

[Russ Smith]

Jayden Daniels is already clearly better than Kyler. Much better thrower. Better pocket presence, goes through reads etc. Much better in clutch situations.

That Skins roster is no better than ours, the difference is that JD has been much better at QB.

So did he throw a bad pass tonight when he hit his WR in the helmet?

 

[Russ Smith]

Players cry for holding all the time, especially after an INT.

If he was held that means he was late, which means had he not been held the pass would have been behind his head. Which makes it even worse.

no it means the reason he didn't get his head around and see the ball is he was coming off being held.

I mean you have the ability to post the image you posted all you have to do is look at the video that came from and you'll see he got held. He got right up and complained to 2 different refs. Murray is complaining too. ANd Zay Jones and Marv are both waiving their hands saying no catch for the INT.

And yes players complain all the time, often because they got held and want the flag.

 

[kerouac9]

Jayden Daniels is already clearly better than Kyler. Much better thrower. Better pocket presence, goes through reads etc. Much better in clutch situations.

That Skins roster is no better than ours, the difference is that JD has been much better at QB.

I think the biggest contributors to the difference is the Commies is playing the NFC South, the bottom fell out of the Dallas Cowboys in their division, and a last-place schedule. Jayden Daniels being real good as a rookie helps, but don’t be surprised if they regress significantly next year.

 

[82CardsGrad]

no it means the reason he didn't get his head around and see the ball is he was coming off being held.

I mean you have the ability to post the image you posted all you have to do is look at the video that came from and you'll see he got held. He got right up and complained to 2 different refs. Murray is complaining too. ANd Zay Jones and Marv are both waiving their hands saying no catch for the INT.

And yes players complain all the time, often because they got held and want the flag.

Russ… on a 5-yard route, throwing the ball “hard” at the receiver’s head is a BAD throw as the receiver has little time to turn and get his hands in position to catch the ball.
The Daniel’s play you keep referencing was a significantly deeper throw, where the receiver had more time to get his hands up in position to make the catch.
Kyler’s was a bad throw, which he does often in clutch moments.
Daniel’s pass was fine and more importantly, in a game they had to win, he played great. Unlike Kyler…throughout his 6 year career.

 

[WisconsinCard]

ARe you watching the Washington game? Deep crossing pattern over the middle hits the WR in the helmet. I guarantee you Washington fans aren't blaming Jayden Daniels right now for not throwing the ball low and outside.

the INT part is a fluke because it hit off the helmet and bounced up. He literally hit the TE in the head and you're saying it's not an accurate throw?

That's exactly what I and most of the free world are saying. That pass was not accurately thrown. I'll bet the K1 would tell you it could have been better located. And a pass over the middle on a crossing pattern is not remotely close to a pass in the red zone where the field is condensed.

 

[vince56]

Unless we’re all ready to absorb another full-out tank year in 2025, Kyler is definitely on the team next year. According to Spotrac, he’d be a $63m dead cap hit if we cut him and a $33m cap hit if traded.

You must be registered for see images attach

The soonest we can realistically cut or trade him is after the 2025 season when his dead cap hit will be only $20m. You could **maybe** trade him as a post 6/1 designation, but someone is going to have to pick up his contract and that’s still a 2 year spread of a $33m dead cap hit.

Source:

Kyler Murray | NFL Contracts & Salaries | Spotrac.com

Kyler Murray signed a 5 year, $230,500,000 contract with the Arizona Cardinals, including $29,035,000 signing bonus, $159,797,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $46,100,000. In 2025, Murray will earn a base salary of $18,000,000, a roster bonus of $11,900,000 and a workout bonus...

www.spotrac.com

 

[kerouac9]

Unless we’re all ready to absorb another full-out tank year in 2025, Kyler is definitely on the team next year. According to Spotrac, he’d be a $63m dead cap hit if we cut him and a $33m cap hit if traded.

You must be registered for see images attach

The soonest we can realistically cut or trade him is after the 2025 season when his dead cap hit will be only $20m. You could **maybe** trade him as a post 6/1 designation, but someone is going to have to pick up his contract and that’s still a 2 year spread of a $33m dead cap hit.

Source:

Kyler Murray | NFL Contracts & Salaries | Spotrac.com

Kyler Murray signed a 5 year, $230,500,000 contract with the Arizona Cardinals, including $29,035,000 signing bonus, $159,797,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $46,100,000. In 2025, Murray will earn a base salary of $18,000,000, a roster bonus of $11,900,000 and a workout bonus...

www.spotrac.com

The Broncos made the playoffs with $53 million in dead cap for Russ.

 

[DaHilg]

That might be because Jayden Daniel’s has 22 TDs and 8 INTs and is 10-5 as a starter.

Just a guess though. He’s probably earned some benefit of the doubt. I don’t think he got beat by the Panthers last week.

I dunno he might have a much better roster than us - just a thought?

 

[D-Dogg]

I think he was talking about last night. It was the play where kyker had all sorts of time and charmin is running down the center of the field by himself waving his arms. It’s disturbing.

Figured that out after and saw that one too. That should have been thrown.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I dunno he might have a much better roster than us - just a thought?

Yeah… totally. I mean, it’s not like Daniels joined a 4-13 team that everyone had pegged to be last in the East again this year after doing next to nothing in FA also.

It’s pretty obvious the Commanders are a powerhouse of talent propping Daniels up instead of the other way around.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

just watched the game late last night.

I think Sat provides ammunition for both the K1 superfans and his detractors as well. So many really nice throws from the pocket. Used his legs some. Overall Murray definitely did not look hopeless as an NFL QB.

Unfortunately (and to me) I think think main story line from game 16 is the continued anti-clutchness post bye.

Two possessions with a chance to get the go ahead score. Two interceptions.

MHJ mistimed his jump, blah blah blah. McBride didn't turn his head, blah blah blah. I really don't want to hear it.

To me it's not a coincidence that at the moment of truth three guys (K1, Big Play Trey, and MHJ) who were making plays all night long could not make a game winning play.

K1 is the facilitator for McBride and MHJ, and whatever Murray did on those two interceptions did not work. That's the bottom line.

Kyler, is my boy, and I'm excited about running it back with him in both 2025 and 2026. He'll come back wiser and stronger next year. Better prepared. More mature.

But high pressure situations in December games are crushing him. He's failing in those crucial moments.

Personally, I think poise and composure can be learned. I think Murray will get there eventually. The question is how long will it take, and will he still be in a Cardinal's uniform when he finally gains those two traits.

 

[82CardsGrad]

just watched the game late last night.

I think Sat provides ammunition for both the K1 superfans and his detractors as well. So many really nice throws from the pocket. Used his legs some. Overall Murray definitely did not look hopeless as an NFL QB.

Unfortunately (and to me) I think think main story line from game 16 is the continued anti-clutchness post bye.

Two possessions with a chance to get the go ahead score. Two interceptions.

MHJ mistimed his jump, blah blah blah. McBride didn't turn his head, blah blah blah. I really don't want to hear it.

To me it's not a coincidence that at the moment of truth three guys (K1, Big Play Trey, and MHJ) who were making plays all night long could not make a game winning play.

K1 is the facilitator for McBride and MHJ, and whatever Murray did on those two interceptions did not work. That's the bottom line.

Kyler, is my boy, and I'm excited about running it back with him in both 2025 and 2026. He'll come back wiser and stronger next year. Better prepared. More mature.

But high pressure situations in December games are crushing him. He's failing in those crucial moments.

Personally, I think poise and composure can be learned. I think Murray will get there eventually. The question is how long will it take, and will he still be in a Cardinal's uniform when he finally gains those two traits.

Murray isn't "hopeless" as a NFL QB... in the sense that his physical talent alone, plus his now 6 years in the league virtually guarantees 7 to 8 wins a season.. and every 3 years or so, perhaps he can get ya 9 or 10 wins. This is the ultimate dilemma of Kyler Murray. Good enough to keep you interested...Good enough to force a team (Cardinals) to re-resign him to a massive 2nd contract... yet, nowhere near mentally tough enough to take a team over the line and win games that actually matter. The NFL is structured in such a way that no team can field a roster filled with hall of fame talent. The Salary Cap doesn't allow for that... So, since the QB position is BY FAR the most crucial position on a football team, teams have decided - rightly so, to make that position the largest % of their team salary. Which therefore requires the QB to LEAD the rest of the team to levels of play that consistently produces a credible, viable post-season threat.
Unfortunately, the Cardinals placed their bet on Murray... a bet that can be and will likely be debated now and for many years to come. Was it the right thing to do - to empty the bank and give Murray this massive second deal? Quite a conundrum for sure...

 

[The6]

So did he throw a bad pass tonight when he hit his WR in the helmet?

Sure did

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Murray isn't "hopeless" as a NFL QB... in the sense that his physical talent alone, plus his now 6 years in the league virtually guarantees 7 to 8 wins a season.. and every 3 years or so, perhaps he can get ya 9 or 10 wins. This is the ultimate dilemma of Kyler Murray. Good enough to keep you interested...Good enough to force a team (Cardinals) to re-resign him to a massive 2nd contract... yet, nowhere near mentally tough enough to take a team over the line and win games that actually matter. The NFL is structured in such a way that no team can field a roster filled with hall of fame talent. The Salary Cap doesn't allow for that... So, since the QB position is BY FAR the most crucial position on a football team, teams have decided - rightly so, to make that position the largest % of their team salary. Which therefore requires the QB to LEAD the rest of the team to levels of play that consistently produces a credible, viable post-season threat.
Unfortunately, the Cardinals placed their bet on Murray... a bet that can be and will likely be debated now and for many years to come. Was it the right thing to do - to empty the bank and give Murray this massive second deal? Quite a conundrum for sure...

That's a pretty reasonable take.

I think it's also fair to say that unless he's able to perform better in high pressure situations (especially late in the season), he's precisely the kind of QB that can, as you allude to, keep us in NFL purgatory.

I honestly think he'll conquer this final demon however. All his life I'm sure Murray was told, you're too "this", or you're too "that" to succeed at the next level. You're not good at "x", so you'll never be a good QB.

My point being, whatever you tell K1 he can't do, he'll work work work until he can do it (but I also won't argue with those that say you can't learn to be clutch). Unfortunately I guess we'll have to wait until next December to see if Kyler has made any progress in this regard.

 

[kerouac9]

I honestly think he'll conquer this final demon however. All his life I'm sure Murray was told, you're too "this", or you're too "that" to succeed at the next level. You're not good at "x", so you'll never be a good QB.

Dude, he walked into the best imaginable situation at every stop in his career before arriving here. When he encountered minor adversity at A&M he immediately transferred.

 

[82CardsGrad]

That's a pretty reasonable take.

I think it's also fair to say that unless he's able to perform better in high pressure situations (especially late in the season), he's precisely the kind of QB that can, as you allude to, keep us in NFL purgatory.

I honestly think he'll conquer this final demon however. All his life I'm sure Murray was told, you're too "this", or you're too "that" to succeed at the next level. You're not good at "x", so you'll never be a good QB.

My point being, whatever you tell K1 he can't do, he'll work work work until he can do it (but I also won't argue with those that say you can't learn to be clutch). Unfortunately I guess we'll have to wait until next December to see if Kyler has made any progress in this regard.

I think Kyler really would love to "conquer" this final demon. However, much like he won't be traveling to the moon, I don't see him getting over this inability to become a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. Do I see him taking a team to the post season again before he retires from the game? Yes, I do. Maybe once, or twice more before he's gone, he'll have a team playing in January. But I don't see him ever advancing beyond the second round and, if I'm being honest, I really don't see him winning a playoff game.
So no surprise as my views on Kyler have long been on display here. I don't ever see Kyler rising to the level where he would be consistently leading teams into the post season.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This still isn't as bad as the Boldin / Fitz threads.

Regardless..... can we change the thread title to: "Kyler Murray - The debate is over thread"?

 

[kerouac9]

I think Kyler really would love to "conquer" this final demon. However, much like he won't be traveling to the moon, I don't see him getting over this inability to become a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. Do I see him taking a team to the post season again before he retires from the game? Yes, I do. Maybe once, or twice more before he's gone, he'll have a team playing in January. But I don't see him ever advancing beyond the second round and, if I'm being honest, I really don't see him winning a playoff game.
So no surprise as my views on Kyler have long been on display here. I don't ever see Kyler rising to the level where he would be consistently leading teams into the post season.

The best argument for Kyler Murray is this: Look at the NFC quarterback situation.

East: Dak Prescott, Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, ????
South: Baker Mayfield, Big Penix Energy, Bryce Young, Derek Carr(????)
North: Jared Goff, Jordan Love, Sam Darnold(????), Caleb Williams
West: Geno Smith, Matt Stafford, Brock Purdy, Kyler.

Not exactly a murderer's row. The AFC has Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, and Joe Burrow battling it out. There's no reason Kyler can't be a top five quarterback in the conference, which is likely a regular playoff appearance.

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

There's no reason Kyler can't be a top five quarterback in the conference

i'd settle for a top five quarterback in our division

 

[Crimson Warrior]

This still isn't as bad as the Boldin / Fitz threads.

Regardless..... can we change the thread title to: "Kyler Murray - The debate is over thread"?

This, from the weighty depths of zero days, zero months, and zero years as an NFL Player Personnel Coordinator.

You're no more qualified to opine on Kyler Murray's NFL future than Captain Crunch.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The best argument for Kyler Murray is this: Look at the NFC quarterback situation.

East: Dak Prescott, Jalen Hurts, Jayden Daniels, ????
South: Baker Mayfield, Big Penix Energy, Bryce Young, Derek Carr(????)
North: Jared Goff, Jordan Love, Sam Darnold(????), Caleb Williams
West: Geno Smith, Matt Stafford, Brock Purdy, Kyler.

Not exactly a murderer's row. The AFC has Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, and Joe Burrow battling it out. There's no reason Kyler can't be a top five quarterback in the conference, which is likely a regular playoff appearance.

Good point... though, as I've contended all along, physically speaking, Kyler is easily a Top 5 NFC QB and could arguably considered #1. As such, Kyler should continue to do what he did this year - play well enough early in a season to rev-up hope and excitement. And, come crunch time when dudes like Goff, Darnold, Stafford, Purdy, Mayfield and Hurts all step up in ways that actually get their teams into the post season and, with the exception of Darnold (we're about to find out) have all won in the post season. Goff, Stafford, Purdy and Hurts all reaching the Super Bowl. I know you and many others will construct cases to diminish their role in getting their teams to the Super Bowl, but as far as I'm concerned, given that there is not one other position on a NFL team that impacts winning and losing more than the QB, I choose not to detract from what these guys did to get their teams into the Super Bowl.

Further, based upon what I have seen from Kyler and the rest of these guys, I'd go so far as to say that if I had to choose a QB to win a crunch-time game in either the regular or post-season, I'd not only take the guys I just mentioned over Kyler, but I'd also choose Mayfield & Daniels as well. And Bryce Young, though not as physically gifted as Kyler, is showing some serious cajones this season.

I'm not sure how you would qualify "Top 5?" But if you directly link it to "regular playoff appearances," I think placing Kyler into that category is a huge leap.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I think Kyler really would love to "conquer" this final demon. However, much like he won't be traveling to the moon, I don't see him getting over this inability to become a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. Do I see him taking a team to the post season again before he retires from the game? Yes, I do. Maybe once, or twice more before he's gone, he'll have a team playing in January. But I don't see him ever advancing beyond the second round and, if I'm being honest, I really don't see him winning a playoff game.
So no surprise as my views on Kyler have long been on display here. I don't ever see Kyler rising to the level where he would be consistently leading teams into the post season.

Oh, so it's impossible for him to continue to improve, progress and mature. He's 27 so he's reached his ceiling as a human being. Got it.

And it's also impossible that he'll be more consistent with a better WR room. Got that too.

Thanks a lot.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Oh, so it's impossible for him to continue to improve, progress and mature. He's 27 so he's reached his ceiling as a human being. Got it.

And it's also impossible that he'll be more consistent with a better WR room. Got that too.

Thanks a lot.

Hey... this is a message board right? Where we all provide our rather uninformed opinions... So, FWIW, my opinion is that if there is to be any further improvement from Kyler, it would not be so meaningful that we would suddenly see the Cardinals in the post season on a frequent basis.
He's 27 and I seriously hope he hasn't reached his ceiling as a human being! I doubt very much that he has!

And I won't address your WR comment...for, if it's not the WR topic, it's the OL... and if it's not the OL, it's our OC... and if it's not the OC, it's... The excuse train never stops chugging down the tracks...

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I think Kyler really would love to "conquer" this final demon. However, much like he won't be traveling to the moon, I don't see him getting over this inability to become a consistent, top-tier NFL QB. Do I see him taking a team to the post season again before he retires from the game? Yes, I do. Maybe once, or twice more before he's gone, he'll have a team playing in January. But I don't see him ever advancing beyond the second round and, if I'm being honest, I really don't see him winning a playoff game.
So no surprise as my views on Kyler have long been on display here. I don't ever see Kyler rising to the level where he would be consistently leading teams into the post season.

I do think that this year has quieted the “Call of Duty” sports talk bozos and we’re back where I said for last couple of years that it’s highly likely that Kyler just doesn’t have the physical abilities to be a top flight quarterback over an extended period of time. This isn’t a Leinart situation where he doesn’t care, it’s just likely that he has #1 overall pick expectations and hasn’t lived up to them.

The other side of the coin is that only one guy was probably going to pick Kyler first. I don’t feel bad for Kyler or anything but I don’t think he’d be as much of a punching bag if Keim wasn’t such a hapless GM and he was drafted where the rest of the league saw him.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Hey... this is a message board right? Where we all provide our rather uninformed opinions... So, FWIW, my opinion is that if there is to be any further improvement from Kyler, it would not be so meaningful that we would suddenly see the Cardinals in the post season on a frequent basis.
He's 27 and I seriously hope he hasn't reached his ceiling as a human being! I doubt very much that he has!

And I won't address your WR comment...for, if it's not the WR topic, it's the OL... and if it's not the OL, it's our OC... and if it's not the OC, it's... The excuse train never stops chugging down the tracks...

haha, joking a little with you a little yes.

But honestly, I would like everyone to keep an open mind on Kyler's potential as our QB1 for the 2025 season.

If some people here are "1000% sure he'll never be successful in the NFL" great, but I'm sure the same was written about Baker Mayfield on CLE Brown message boards too.

Happy New Years 82CardsGrad!