Kingsbury, The World’s Only 17 Point Offensive Genius

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When your QB struggles with pocket mechanics and consistently throwing the ball...I don't know how you design a good offense. Imagine Brady having to win with their legs...that is a close analogy to what it is like to design an offense with how Kyler is throwing the ball right now and not wanting to run.

Teams have much more diverse and inventive systems with far worse QBs.

Is Kyler inconsistent? Sure he is. I agree with you.

Does that stop us having a scheme that's more varied and less predictable? No it doesn't. Because good or bad, more motion and more variety helps all QBs.

Off the top off my head we are missing,

Pre snap motion
Snaps under center
Kyler moving out of the pocket to pass
Designed RB pass plays that aren't simple check downs (see David Johnson).
Any passing game in the middle of the field unless the LOS breaks down
Any kind of serious involvement for TEs in the passing game. Especially for Arnold who has shown himself to be a reliable route runner with safe hands.

There are a bunch more but these are the most obvious.
 

Chopper0080

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Teams have much more diverse and inventive systems with far worse QBs.

Is Kyler inconsistent? Sure he is. I agree with you.

Does that stop us having a scheme that's more varied and less predictable? No it doesn't. Because good or bad, more motion and more variety helps all QBs.

Off the top off my head we are missing,

Pre snap motion
Snaps under center
Kyler moving out of the pocket to pass
Designed RB pass plays that aren't simple check downs (see David Johnson).
Any passing game in the middle of the field unless the LOS breaks down
Any kind of serious involvement for TEs in the passing game. Especially for Arnold who has shown himself to be a reliable route runner with safe hands.

There are a bunch more but these are the most obvious.
Ok...so when implementing a system you always scheme to your players strengths and comforts to give that player the best chance for success. As players grow and develop their strengths and comfort levels in areas grow as well. They can do more and are more comfortable doing those things.

Here is what you are proposing that I think goes against the above...

-putting a young QB who has never really played from under C and playing with his back to the defense.

-putting a young player who struggles with mechanics and accuracy at times on the run to throw.

-asking a young QB who teams are scheming to keeping in the pocket to roll out into that outside contain technique.


Here is what you are proposing which I think is already being done...

-pre snap motion. We do this even if it is not at the frequency of other teams in the NFL. We did it more at the end of last year and have decreased our usage of it. I can't say for sure why, but I am sure there is a reason.

-designed RB pass plays. Designed RB pass plays take time to develop and Kyler tries to get the ball out of his hands very quickly. Also, the Cardinals use their RBs as blitz pickups so that also limits using them in the passing game.

-Passing game that uses the middle of the field. Deep crossing routes take time which requires a QB to sit in the picket and let develop. Kyler does not like to do this which is why those throws are not being attempted at a higher rate.

-TE work the middle of the field. Kyler struggles in the middle of the field. They are also not normally a primary read unless you have a top level TE on your roster. We don't.

###

Some of this is also choosing what players you want on the field. Do you want Fitz/Kirk or Dan Arnold? Isabella or Arnold? Maxx or Arnold? You only get 11 at a time and 5 are OL, 1 QB, 1 RB, and Hopkins. That makes 8 and you have to decide who you want for those other 3.
 

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Ok...so when implementing a system you always scheme to your players strengths and comforts to give that player the best chance for success. As players grow and develop their strengths and comfort levels in areas grow as well. They can do more and are more comfortable doing those things.

Here is what you are proposing that I think goes against the above...

-putting a young QB who has never really played from under C and playing with his back to the defense.

-putting a young player who struggles with mechanics and accuracy at times on the run to throw.

-asking a young QB who teams are scheming to keeping in the pocket to roll out into that outside contain technique.


Here is what you are proposing which I think is already being done...

-pre snap motion. We do this even if it is not at the frequency of other teams in the NFL. We did it more at the end of last year and have decreased our usage of it. I can't say for sure why, but I am sure there is a reason.

-designed RB pass plays. Designed RB pass plays take time to develop and Kyler tries to get the ball out of his hands very quickly. Also, the Cardinals use their RBs as blitz pickups so that also limits using them in the passing game.

-Passing game that uses the middle of the field. Deep crossing routes take time which requires a QB to sit in the picket and let develop. Kyler does not like to do this which is why those throws are not being attempted at a higher rate.

-TE work the middle of the field. Kyler struggles in the middle of the field. They are also not normally a primary read unless you have a top level TE on your roster. We don't.

###

Some of this is also choosing what players you want on the field. Do you want Fitz/Kirk or Dan Arnold? Isabella or Arnold? Maxx or Arnold? You only get 11 at a time and 5 are OL, 1 QB, 1 RB, and Hopkins. That makes 8 and you have to decide who you want for those other 3.



All I got from this was that kliff kingsbury is absolutely incapable.
 

Chopper0080

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All I got from this was that kliff kingsbury is absolutely incapable.
Not shocking coming from you. (Your opinion is fairly established)

I don't believe people acknowledge how raw Kyler Murray was coming out of college. He started 4 more games than Mitch Trubisky whose major critique was his lack of starts and those 4 additional games were as a freshman at Texas Tech and three years before he started his first game at Oklahoma.
 

TaylorSwift

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Not shocking coming from you. (Your opinion is fairly established)

I don't believe people acknowledge how raw Kyler Murray was coming out of college. He started 4 more games than Mitch Trubisky whose major critique was his lack of starts and those 4 additional games were as a freshman at Texas Tech and three years before he started his first game at Oklahoma.


Mahomes was the same way.

Yet he landed in nfl and developed into who is today.

Kyler was far more mechanically sound than mahomes coming out so what is the difference between murrays and mahomes development so far?



Rhymes with cliff
 

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Mahomes was the same way.

Yet he landed in nfl and developed into who is today.

Kyler was far more mechanically sound than mahomes coming out so what is the difference between murrays and mahomes development so far?



Rhymes with cliff

Yeah ok. You have no evidence to backup the claims you are making.

Do you realize that KK is a part of Mahomes development???
 

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Where I would knock him is not so much play calling, but team discipline. Way too many presnap penalties. That says something about the coaching.
 

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Yeah ok. You have no evidence to backup the claims you are making.

Do you realize that KK is a part of Mahomes development???

Do we really know if kliff developed mahomes or just enabled him to put up volume stats in the big 12?

I don't know and I can't say, but considering that mahomes needed a year to get settled and tutelage under andy reid and all pro weapons at every offensive position to be who he is today.

I'll give the proved professional coaching greatness of andy reid more credence
 

dreamcastrocks

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Do we really know if kliff developed mahomes or just enabled him to put up volume stats in the big 12?

I don't know and I can't say, but considering that mahomes needed a year to get settled and tutelage under andy reid and all pro weapons at every offensive position to be who he is today.

I'll give the proved professional coaching greatness of andy reid more credence

We all know what you think... sigh.
 

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We all know what you think... sigh.


I know I beat this horse about kliff

But I see a team that is 8-3/9-2 just not playing at that level.

And then you watch the games especially at the end of each half. It's rage inducing

I just want kliff to improve and prove me wrong.

Greatest joy to me would be kliff proving me a fool.
 

Yuma

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Not sure how false starts are on the coaching...
Bill Belicek's teams have been always the lowest penalized. It is discipline. Not accepting those mistakes. Practicing repetition until they have it down. Bringing in other players if a guy keeps messing up. Setting a higher standard. We have all had different levels of coach's when we played. We have all experienced a coach that makes us accountable.
 

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Bill Belicek's teams have been always the lowest penalized. It is discipline. Not accepting those mistakes. Practicing repetition until they have it down. Bringing in other players if a guy keeps messing up. Setting a higher standard. We have all had different levels of coach's when we played. We have all experienced a coach that makes us accountable.

nope. there's nothing Kingsbury has done wrong. Ever.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Bill Belicek's teams have been always the lowest penalized. It is discipline. Not accepting those mistakes. Practicing repetition until they have it down. Bringing in other players if a guy keeps messing up. Setting a higher standard. We have all had different levels of coach's when we played. We have all experienced a coach that makes us accountable.

If it were only that easy...
 

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This is an honest question for both sides, wether you like him or not, is his offense revolutionizing the game? I'm asking because that's what we were told he would do
 

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This is an honest question for both sides, wether you like him or not, is his offense revolutionizing the game? I'm asking because that's what we were told he would do

By whom? The media? Keim? Do either one of them really know what they are doing?

Has their been a college coach in the past 25 years that has come in and revolutionized an offense?
 

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It's not easy. Like I said, we have all had a coach we remember that made us go to a higher level.

The Cardinals have been terrible about penalties, even under Arians and before.
 

Chopper0080

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Mahomes was the same way.

Yet he landed in nfl and developed into who is today.

Kyler was far more mechanically sound than mahomes coming out so what is the difference between murrays and mahomes development so far?



Rhymes with cliff
Patrick Mahomes had 29 straight starts in college.

Kyler Murray had 4 as a freshman at Texas A&M, then a 3 year gap, and then 14 starts as a Sr at Oklahoma.

I would argue that those are significantly different college starting experiences and volume. Even if you count Kyler's starts at A&M, Mahomes still had almost an entire college season of additional experience prior to entering the NFL. He was significantly more experienced, spent almost an entire year sitting and learning and was coached by arguably the best offensive HC in the NFL in Andy Reid. Also on that coaching staff were Doug Pederson who became an NFL HC and Matt Nagy who has become an NFL HC. I 100% agree that Kyler has had worse NFL coaching than Mahomes but I would argue that 90% of QBs in the NFL are in the same boat.
 

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The Cardinals have been terrible about penalties, even under Arians and before.
It's become institutional. Like losing for the Suns. You have to change the mentality. Suns have been talking about that in the media this week.
 

Chopper0080

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I know I beat this horse about kliff

But I see a team that is 8-3/9-2 just not playing at that level.

And then you watch the games especially at the end of each half. It's rage inducing

I just want kliff to improve and prove me wrong.

Greatest joy to me would be kliff proving me a fool.
Trust that I know you and every other Kliff critic on this board does as well. Similar situation with Keim and several posters.
 
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Zeem is right there’s a reason I’m not a scout anymore. It’s the fact I’m 73 years old. Of course a pandemic doesn’t help. My resume has been an open book as have those connections I’ve gotten to post on or write for the board in the old days. I’m not in the business of handing down tablets. I made a dumb comment during the game Sunday. I think everything on the board is pretty much a matter of opinion. I do try to provide rationale for my positions. Wouldn’t be a very interesting board if we all saw everything the same way. As to criticism it’s always welcomed. I never worry about getting attacked. People are passionate about their teams & players. The one I posted about Murray today was certain to blow up. I think he makes it big, but has a lot to learn. However, the league better watch out if he learns much more. He could grow into greatness. He’s always fun to watch. Whether you liked it or not, thanks for taking the time to respond
 

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Mahomes was the same way.

Yet he landed in nfl and developed into who is today.

Kyler was far more mechanically sound than mahomes coming out so what is the difference between murrays and mahomes development so far?



Rhymes with cliff

Do we really know if kliff developed mahomes or just enabled him to put up volume stats in the big 12?

I don't know and I can't say, but considering that mahomes needed a year to get settled and tutelage under andy reid and all pro weapons at every offensive position to be who he is today.

I'll give the proved professional coaching greatness of andy reid more credence

Patrick Mahomes had 29 straight starts in college.

Kyler Murray had 4 as a freshman at Texas A&M, then a 3 year gap, and then 14 starts as a Sr at Oklahoma.

I would argue that those are significantly different college starting experiences and volume. Even if you count Kyler's starts at A&M, Mahomes still had almost an entire college season of additional experience prior to entering the NFL. He was significantly more experienced, spent almost an entire year sitting and learning and was coached by arguably the best offensive HC in the NFL in Andy Reid. Also on that coaching staff were Doug Pederson who became an NFL HC and Matt Nagy who has become an NFL HC. I 100% agree that Kyler has had worse NFL coaching than Mahomes but I would argue that 90% of QBs in the NFL are in the same boat.

Probably a case of two things being true.
"Mahomes scouting report"
Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. And, honestly, he may never be. Between his inconsistent accuracy due to poor mechanics, his tendency to bail from clean pockets and his lack of field vision, he’s going to leave as many big plays on the field as he creates. This was a risky pick.”

The Chiefs got a B-plus for picking Mahomes from NFL.com’s Chad Reuter. He wrote: “ Patrick Mahomes has all of the tools to be a great quarterback. Chiefs GM John Dorsey and head coach Andy Reid saw Brett Favre in Green Bay, and they have to see some of that gunslinger attitude in Mahomes. There is a risk factor here given his penchant for throwing the ball anywhere and from any arm angle (which will turn into interceptions in the NFL), and they have up a future first-round pick to get him. But if anyone can get Mahomes to adjust and succeed, it’s Reid.”



ESPN’s Stephen A. Smith wasn’t sold:


Dan Kadar of SB Nation gave the Chiefs a C. He wrote: “My grade on what Kansas City did in this draft is due to my opinion that they gave up way too much to trade up for quarterback Patrick Mahomes in the first round. Again, if he works out, I look dumb and it doesn’t matter. But to give up pick Nos. 27 and 91 this year and a first-round pick in 2018 is a lot.”

George Schroeder of USA Today wondered why Deshaun Watson didn’t get the call:


The Chiefs got a C-minus from Vinnie Iyer of the Sporting News. He wrote: “Trading up for Mahomes, a big-armed gunslinger who really doesn’t mesh with the true mentality as Alex Smith’s successor, set up a bad tone in this draft.”



Mel Kiper of ESPN gave the Chiefs a C-plus. He wrote: “(T)his class will hinge on Patrick Mahomes because Kansas City bet big that he’s the successor to Alex Smith. Giving up a third-round pick and next year’s first to move up 17 spots was a ton for a team with immediate needs elsewhere and some defenders getting up there in age. Mahomes has a high ceiling, but he’s going to have to learn how NFL offenses are run, and the Chiefs are going to have to rebuild his mechanics from the ground up. Andy Reid and John Dorsey know what they’re getting (and know what they’re doing) and see some Brett Favre in Mahomes. And they have a capable quarterback in Alex Smith signed until 2019. This is a pick — and grade — that could look like great or silly in five or six years.”
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/for-petes-sake/article224076765.html

I've said before that I think if Kliff had a vet QB his offense would flow better. I think Kliff is a great play design, good play caller, but to be decided if he's a good QB developer. Mahomes didnt look much different between his SO and JR years imo.

Now do I think if Kliff was just an OC the offense would be better and QB would be better fundamentally? Absolutely. Same if he was just a HC and didnt have the responsibility as a play caller. This team would have far less penalties and be more disciplined. He's carrying a heavy duty that not even some of the brightest minds in the NFL handle in terms of being a HC/playcaller.

As far as college starts there is some truth to that. However, despite the starts Kyler was still more fundamentally sound that Mahomes imo. And if he started more games that would have been true as well. The real advantage Mahomes had in terms of his college experience was it was more difficult for him than Kyler.

Mahomes was use to a lesser talent on the outside, a young coach calling plays, not a great OLine, etc. So when he gets Andy Reid and the Chiefs weapons its like heaven. Meanwhile Kyler never really had to throw in a muddy pocket, force to throw without a running threat, etc etc.

You could argue he only had to do that at A&M because even in HS Kyler was at a powerhouse with a few NFL players on and Mahomes wasnt.

This is why imo Keim needed to be very offensive geared in the draft FA the past couple of years. I'd rather have ONE thing great about this team then it be inconsistent on both sides. You take the best WR available at the top of round 2 or draft an Olineman (2019 class).

Simmons has been GREAT lately, but I still wanted Oline or maybe another WR.

Kyler and Kliff have their issues, but I'd rather they worked it out with a full deck imo. Not explosive enough as a team imo outside of Kyler making big runs.

Now we have we what we have and thats fine. I'd just be of the mindset going forward about lets make sure offense is stacked next year to really find out about Kliff and Kyler.
 

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