2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[AzStevenCal]

Green’s impact to that team is backed up in every RAPM stat there is. They are a different team when he’s on/off the court. The 73-win team before Durant got there he was #2 in the league behind LeBron in RPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM

Yeah, that's why I said he is the ultimate complementary player. I really can't remember a player like him, ever. But how good would he have been if he'd been on the Suns the past 6 years? Would he have even raised minimal all star interest? We'll never know but I don't think he'd be a force with a bunch of non-stars.

 

[SirStefan32]

I would not be pleasantly surprised at 35% from three, I would be ecstatic.

If he does that, he is more than a back up pg.

I just don't see what you see. I like the kid. I enjoy watching him play, but he is just a defender who can bring some energy off the bench once in a while. He appears to be a willing passer, but not a very skilled one. His shooting is just bad. In my mind, if he can shoot 35% from 3, that would make him an Isaiah Canaan- a career backup. This really reminds me of people here talking about whether or not Tyler Ulis was the point guard of the future a couple of years ago. If the Suns had a couple of NBA-level point guards, we wouldn't be talking about Harrison potentially starting.

 

[Errntknght]

Shaq is a backup, at best. He'll probably see spot minutes starting if there is an injury but he lacked the ability to feed the ball into Ayton during Summer League, which is a problem. He's only played with 1 or 2 other scorers at a time and has no experience with a team with 3 guys who can knock down 3's and a lowpost option as well. We'll see what he can do but I won't hold my breath. There is a reason he was in the G-League and made his NBA debut last season. He's not a good 3pt shooter, not that good at driving to score, has trouble making entry passes inside, and has only been guarding backups and fringe NBA players.

I would be pleasantly surprised if he can shoot better than 35% from 3 and keeps an assist to turnover ratio better than a 1.5. If he starts, I think he'll struggle to even get 10 points on his own. He won't need to be a scorer but since he's not a good facilitator he needs to give us something on offense but I don't see what that might be right now.

I'd rephrase your opening line: Shaq is at his best as a backup! He's got a good motor but I weriously doubt that he could play starters minutes and still keep up the defensive pressure. He's a lot like Bledsoe at his best, he disrupts the opponents offense and that burns a lot of energy. We never saw Bled at his best once he became a starter.
I do agree that he needs to get better from 3 and in the SL he took some of his open looks from that distance though his first instinct is to drive. He's quite a good finisher on his drives, so ideally he'll choose his spots - shoot the open 3 unless there's a good lane.
I think you took the wrong message from the summer league - true he forced some passes to Ayton that he shouldn't have but at least he was trying his best to feed him. I much prefer a PG overdoing it in that direction than waiting for ideal situations to show up. I have little doubt that Igor can teach him when to hold up the pass - and also get Ayton to work himself into a better position to receive the passes.

Who starts at PG? Okabo. He's not really a rookie. He's been starting in a good pro league and he's not a soft Euro. He's rather hard nosed and keeps his composure. He's a decent defender and has good range on his shot. Reeds D looked good in SL but if it slips, Shaq could step in for him and play alongside Okobo for stretches and have him pressuring the opponents PG.

What about Melton? We'll see. If he's even better than Harrison we are truly stacked at PG.

 

[Finito]

Green’s impact to that team is backed up in every RAPM stat there is. They are a different team when he’s on/off the court. The 73-win team before Durant got there he was #2 in the league behind LeBron in RPM.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM

That's misleading they won 73 games they won no matter who was out there.

They were the best team in the NBA before Durant got there.

Take Green off the Warriors and say put him in Atlanta, what is he? He can't really score enough to carry a team and can he play down low without all the perimeter help?

Green is a really really good role player.

Klay is a star. Him and Kawhi and the two best two way players in the NBA. Go watch that western conference finals that 73 win year it was Klay who said get on my back and he went off. You can make a case he's the best pure shooter ever.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'd rephrase your opening line: Shaq is at his best as a backup! He's got a good motor but I weriously doubt that he could play starters minutes and still keep up the defensive pressure. He's a lot like Bledsoe at his best, he disrupts the opponents offense and that burns a lot of energy. We never saw Bled at his best once he became a starter.
I do agree that he needs to get better from 3 and in the SL he took some of his open looks from that distance though his first instinct is to drive. He's quite a good finisher on his drives, so ideally he'll choose his spots - shoot the open 3 unless there's a good lane.
I think you took the wrong message from the summer league - true he forced some passes to Ayton that he shouldn't have but at least he was trying his best to feed him. I much prefer a PG overdoing it in that direction than waiting for ideal situations to show up. I have little doubt that Igor can teach him when to hold up the pass - and also get Ayton to work himself into a better position to receive the passes.

Who starts at PG? Okabo. He's not really a rookie. He's been starting in a good pro league and he's not a soft Euro. He's rather hard nosed and keeps his composure. He's a decent defender and has good range on his shot. Reeds D looked good in SL but if it slips, Shaq could step in for him and play alongside Okobo for stretches and have him pressuring the opponents PG.

What about Melton? We'll see. If he's even better than Harrison we are truly stacked at PG.

The French league is really bad, it's rated as the 14th best league in Europe, and his club wasn't even one of the better ones in the French league. The only European wide competition they've played recently was the FIBA EuroCup, which is essentially a 3rd tier competition.

Okobo is most definitely a rookie. I'm not saying he's going to suck, but I wouldn't use his play in France as a sign of hard nosed experience. I honestly think any top 25 NCAA team would massacre most teams in the French league.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The French league is really bad, it's rated as the 14th best league in Europe, and his club wasn't even one of the better ones in the French league. The only European wide competition they've played recently was the FIBA EuroCup, which is essentially a 3rd tier competition.

Okobo is most definitely a rookie. I'm not saying he's going to suck, but I wouldn't use his play in France as a sign of hard nosed experience. I honestly think any top 25 NCAA team would massacre most teams in the French league.

Agreed. Okobo is probably a big stretch and quite a ways away.

 

[Errntknght]

The French league is really bad, it's rated as the 14th best league in Europe, and his club wasn't even one of the better ones in the French league. The only European wide competition they've played recently was the FIBA EuroCup, which is essentially a 3rd tier competition.

Okobo is most definitely a rookie. I'm not saying he's going to suck, but I wouldn't use his play in France as a sign of hard nosed experience. I honestly think any top 25 NCAA team would massacre most teams in the French league.

I saw Okobo playing in the Euroleague tournament - the same one that Igor's team won. Granted it won only one game but he stood out in it for his solid play. As soon as I saw that he was in the draft, I hoped we'd pick him up if he still around in the second round. Some mocks had him going ahead of that, if you recall, but last he did. Naturally, I wasn't contemplating him as a starter then but at this point I'd rather take a chance on him than on 'spoiling' Shaq in that role. In any case I trust Igor to make the right decisions.

 

[GatorAZ]

That's misleading they won 73 games they won no matter who was out there.

They were the best team in the NBA before Durant got there.

Take Green off the Warriors and say put him in Atlanta, what is he? He can't really score enough to carry a team and can he play down low without all the perimeter help?

Green is a really really good role player.

Klay is a star. Him and Kawhi and the two best two way players in the NBA. Go watch that western conference finals that 73 win year it was Klay who said get on my back and he went off. You can make a case he's the best pure shooter ever.

I’ve yet to hear an argument how Klay is more important other than hypothetical arguments that Draymond wouldn’t be as good on another team. That’s a different argument. A point forward who can handle, pass, play perimeter defense and protect the rim is why he had a larger impact on the game and why he’s continually among tops in the league in RAPM.

The raw numbers check out too. Green led the league with two steals per game and recorded 1.4 blocks per game as well. His defensive box plus/minus was 5.0, the best in the league, and the Warriors recorded a 99.3 defensive rating in the 2,471 minutes that Green spent on the floor during the regular season.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/26/...s-defensive-player-of-the-year-draymond-green

 

[Phrazbit]

I saw Okobo playing in the Euroleague tournament - the same one that Igor's team won. Granted it won only one game but he stood out in it for his solid play. As soon as I saw that he was in the draft, I hoped we'd pick him up if he still around in the second round. Some mocks had him going ahead of that, if you recall, but last he did. Naturally, I wasn't contemplating him as a starter then but at this point I'd rather take a chance on him than on 'spoiling' Shaq in that role. In any case I trust Igor to make the right decisions.

No, it wasn't the same tournament. His team was in the FIBA EuroCup, it's a 3rd tier cup competition.

EDIT: sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were talking about his club team.

 

[SirStefan32]

I saw Okobo playing in the Euroleague tournament - the same one that Igor's team won. Granted it won only one game but he stood out in it for his solid play. As soon as I saw that he was in the draft, I hoped we'd pick him up if he still around in the second round. Some mocks had him going ahead of that, if you recall, but last he did. Naturally, I wasn't contemplating him as a starter then but at this point I'd rather take a chance on him than on 'spoiling' Shaq in that role. In any case I trust Igor to make the right decisions.

This came up before. I remember looking it up and not finding Okobo anywhere. He played for some junior team- that was his only national team experience.

 

[Phrazbit]

This came up before. I remember looking it up and not finding Okobo anywhere. He played for some junior team- that was his only national team experience.

Yeah, he was in an under 20 competition.

 

[Finito]

I’ve yet to hear an argument how Klay is more important other than hypothetical arguments that Draymond wouldn’t be as good on another team. That’s a different argument. A point forward who can handle, pass, play perimeter defense and protect the rim is why he had a larger impact on the game and why he’s continually among tops in the league in RAPM.



https://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/26/...s-defensive-player-of-the-year-draymond-green

You can play that little numbers game all day long but there isn't a GM in the NBA that would pick Green over Klay to start a franchise.

Dude really good role player who does all the little things.

Game is on the line who they going to Klay or Draymond? That's not even a choice

 

[SirStefan32]

I’ve yet to hear an argument how Klay is more important other than hypothetical arguments that Draymond wouldn’t be as good on another team. That’s a different argument. A point forward who can handle, pass, play perimeter defense and protect the rim is why he had a larger impact on the game and why he’s continually among tops in the league in RAPM.



https://www.sbnation.com/2017/6/26/...s-defensive-player-of-the-year-draymond-green

I don't think it's a different argument. Team matters. I don't think it's unfair to argue that KT is better than he looks like right now. I can't think of a better two-way player outside of Leonard. Maybe Jimmy Butler? Would he be a bigger star running his own show, or would he look worse when team didn't have to focus on Curry, Durant, and others?

Green is one of my favorite players in the league (on-count antics and general dumbassery aside, of course). He is definitely the most unique player in the league. That said, I think it's fair to think about whether or not he makes the team or the team makes him. Would he be able to carry his own team?

I don't know the answer to either question, but I think it's fair to discuss. In my opinion, GSW reign is over the day Green leaves. Should KT leave instead, I think they can find a replacement that will be good enough for them to keep winning.

 

[SirStefan32]

You can play that little numbers game all day long but there isn't a GM in the NBA that would pick Green over Klay to start a franchise.

Dude really good role player who does all the little things.

Game is on the line who they going to Klay or Draymond? That's not even a choice

I don't think that's fair. That's one of the many factors. There is no question that KT is a better scorer. When he is on, he is unstoppable- more so than Curry or Durant, in my opinion. That said, Green is by far the most unique and versatile player in the league. I don't think either one of them are franchise players, but I don't think it's easy to choose one or the other.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think that's fair. That's one of the many factors. There is no question that KT is a better scorer. When he is on, he is unstoppable- more so than Curry or Durant, in my opinion. That said, Green is by far the most unique and versatile player in the league. I don't think either one of them are franchise players, but I don't think it's easy to choose one or the other.

I don't either. I think it's very reasonable for anyone to consider the guards the strength of that team but clearly it's debatable.

 

[Phrazbit]

I agree with Stef, Green is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important to Golden State than Thompson.

Thompson is a really good player but Green is their best defender, their best rebounder and, arguably, their best passer. He also is a dirty pile of puke.

I also think both are aided tremendously by playing in that system around superior stars. I can't imagine the efficiency Booker could play with if he had the luxury of being the 3rd or 4th best player on the team.

 

[GatorAZ]

You can play that little numbers game all day long but there isn't a GM in the NBA that would pick Green over Klay to start a franchise.

Dude really good role player who does all the little things.

Game is on the line who they going to Klay or Draymond? That's not even a choice

You need to go back to the first posts of this argument and stay on topic. This is not a hypothetical question regarding who GM’s would pick to start a franchise. If either guy is your best player you aren’t a very good team.

 

[GatorAZ]

I don't think that's fair. That's one of the many factors. There is no question that KT is a better scorer. When he is on, he is unstoppable- more so than Curry or Durant, in my opinion. That said, Green is by far the most unique and versatile player in the league. I don't think either one of them are franchise players, but I don't think it's easy to choose one or the other.

People keep saying Draymond would get exposed if he wasn’t on the Warriors but what about Klay?

How is a guard that doesn’t create his own shot or create for others going to carry a team. He’s s jumpshooter that can’t finish in the lane or get to the FT line. His bread and butter is running around and getting open of Curry’s gravity. He’s an an elite shooter in catch and shoot situations. His TS% when Curry doesn’t play is lower than Booker’s. Yes when he gets hot he can win you a game but he’s very one dimensional offensively.

As it turns out, Thompson is almost never creating those shots for himself, instead benefiting from the playmaking ability of his teammates and his own ability to find open space on the court. Of the 229 three-point shots Thompson hit in the 2017-18 season, all but 11 of them were assisted. That means 95% of the threes Thompson made were assisted, a number just behind catch and shoot maven Kyle Korver (97.6%) and ahead of the likes of J.J. Redick (91.3%).

https://warriorswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/01/klay-thompson-assisted-three-pointers/

 

[Finito]

People keep saying Draymond would get exposed if he wasn’t on the Warriors but what about Klay?

How is a guard that doesn’t create his own shot or create for others going to carry a team. He’s s jumpshooter that can’t finish in the lane or get to the FT line. His bread and butter is running around and getting open of Curry’s gravity. He’s an an elite shooter in catch and shoot situations. His TS% when Curry doesn’t play is lower than Booker’s. Yes when he gets hot he can win you a game but he’s very one dimensional offensively.

As it turns out, Thompson is almost never creating those shots for himself, instead benefiting from the playmaking ability of his teammates and his own ability to find open space on the court. Of the 229 three-point shots Thompson hit in the 2017-18 season, all but 11 of them were assisted. That means 95% of the threes Thompson made were assisted, a number just behind catch and shoot maven Kyle Korver (97.6%) and ahead of the likes of J.J. Redick (91.3%).

https://warriorswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/01/klay-thompson-assisted-three-pointers/

Lol

 

[SirStefan32]

People keep saying Draymond would get exposed if he wasn’t on the Warriors but what about Klay?

How is a guard that doesn’t create his own shot or create for others going to carry a team. He’s s jumpshooter that can’t finish in the lane or get to the FT line. His bread and butter is running around and getting open of Curry’s gravity. He’s an an elite shooter in catch and shoot situations. His TS% when Curry doesn’t play is lower than Booker’s. Yes when he gets hot he can win you a game but he’s very one dimensional offensively.

As it turns out, Thompson is almost never creating those shots for himself, instead benefiting from the playmaking ability of his teammates and his own ability to find open space on the court. Of the 229 three-point shots Thompson hit in the 2017-18 season, all but 11 of them were assisted. That means 95% of the threes Thompson made were assisted, a number just behind catch and shoot maven Kyle Korver (97.6%) and ahead of the likes of J.J. Redick (91.3%).

https://warriorswire.usatoday.com/2018/08/01/klay-thompson-assisted-three-pointers/

Well, it's certainly happened to Barnes. He looked a hell of a lot better as a Warrior than he does as a Mav.

I think we agree that it's fair to ask the same question about KT as we'd ask about Green. I do disagree with your assessment of KT as just a shooter. Perhaps his role is that of a spot-up shooter, but I've seen him create his own shot just fine. I think he is far less one-dimensional than you think.

 

[SirStefan32]

Lol

That certainly adds a lot to the discussion.

 

[Finito]

That certainly adds a lot to the discussion.

He's a nerd stat guy. You can make those say anything.

If your going to over simplify Klay's game and say he can't do anything other than spot up then idk. Klay does what's asked of him in this system. To say he can't get his own shot is flat out insane. Go watch those early splash brothers teams.

Go watch that GS/OKC series when Klay put on a show and led them back from 3-1 to win while Steph was hurt.

Again I respect Draymond he's a great role player. You need that guy to win championships you need that Ben Wallace that Bruce Bowen that Rodman you need that guy

But games on the line you need a basket to win the game you want Klay or Draymond to take that shot? Exactly. That right there tells me who's more important. Stars put the ball in the basket bottom line.

 

[GatorAZ]

He's a nerd stat guy. You can make those say anything.

If your going to over simplify Klay's game and say he can't do anything other than spot up then idk. Klay does what's asked of him in this system. To say he can't get his own shot is flat out insane. Go watch those early splash brothers teams.

Go watch that GS/OKC series when Klay put on a show and led them back from 3-1 to win while Steph was hurt.

Again I respect Draymond he's a great role player. You need that guy to win championships you need that Ben Wallace that Bruce Bowen that Rodman you need that guy

But games on the line you need a basket to win the game you want Klay or Draymond to take that shot? Exactly. That right there tells me who's more important. Stars put the ball in the basket bottom line.

So Klay Thompson is more important to the Warriors than Ben Wallace was to the Pistons? Because he can score? Lol...

 

[Finito]

So Klay Thompson is more important to the Warriors than Ben Wallace was to the Pistons? Because he can score? Lol...

Smh

 

[GatorAZ]

Smh

I’ll take that as a no.