Suns pre-draft workouts

[Hoop Head]

Can you take a guy at 16 that might learn to shoot one day?

16 is a tough spot to be picking at. Having a pick just outside of the lottery could be a good thing since McD seems to do well picking at the bottom of the lottery, where he got Booker and Warren. Hopefully 16 isn't too late to find a quality player. This is a deep draft so there should be talent available there but talent that fits a need is a different story. That's what the Suns need to figure out and either have a trade in place if their guys aren't still on the board when they pick at #16 or come up with a way to bundle the 16th, 31st, and 58th picks to move up and ensure they get someone they're after. I think they should be able to move up a few spots by packaging those picks, how far is a different story though.


Here's a list of 16th picks throughout NBA history from Basketball-Reference, they're sorted by Win-Shares, but that puts the more notable players towards the top of the list. John Stockton leads the way by a good margin that way but you can see some notable players taken there. Stockton is definitely the best 16th pick in NBA history but aside from him, these are players that most people should know who have been taken over the last 30 years. At forward there are James Johnson, Hedo Turkoglu, Nick Young, Ron Artest, Terry Mills, and Chris Gatling. Nikola Vucevic, Mo Speights, and Jusuf Nurkic as the top Centers, all 3 of them currently in the league also. At guard, and besides Stockton, Terry Rozier, Tony Delk, Dana Barros, and Brevin Knight are the most notable players. No franchise players other than Stockton but Artest could have been if he wasn't a headcase. A lot of quality starters amongst the bunch with James Johnson, Terry Rozier, Nick Young, Vucevic, Nurkic, and Speights still in the league.

 

[Mainstreet]

Can you take a guy at 16 that might learn to shoot one day?

Shake Milton, Aaron Holiday and Landry Shamet are point guards that can all shoot.

IMO, this is a great point guard class.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/malik-milton-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/aaron-holiday-1.html

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/landry-shamet-1.html

 

[Superbone]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Was that Booker near the beginning?

 

[Hoop Head]

Don't think Booker was in that, I just watched it a couple times looking for him but Alonzo Trier kind of looked like him at the beginning and he was also wearing a #1 jersey like Booker. I'm 98% sure that was Trier though.

 

[Raze]

Can you take a guy at 16 that might learn to shoot one day?

Oh. Sorry. No way do I take Melton at #16. I'm saying take him at #31. I presumed ALL those invitees were 2nd round prospects.

 

[Superbone]

Don't think Booker was in that, I just watched it a couple times looking for him but Alonzo Trier kind of looked like him at the beginning and he was also wearing a #1 jersey like Booker. I'm 98% sure that was Trier though.

OK, thanks. I was talking about the face forward side steps starting at about 0:06. Must be Trier.

 

[Mainstreet]

Oh. Sorry. No way do I take Melton at #16. I'm saying take him at #31. I presumed ALL those invitees were 2nd round prospects.

Landry Shamet should go in the first round.

 

[Raze]

Landry Shamet should go in the first round.

Probably. But not at #16. There are a lot of guys in the late 20 to early 30's that could fit with us. Guys like:

Brunson
Melton
Graham
Shamet
Holiday

One of those might slip to #31, which is what I was inferring to. I doubt we're thinking about taking any of them at #16.

 

[Mainstreet]

Probably. But not at #16. There are a lot of guys in the late 20 to early 30's that could fit with us. Guys like:

Brunson
Melton
Graham
Shamet
Holiday

One of those might slip to #31, which is what I was inferring to. I doubt we're thinking about taking any of them at #16.

It's hard to know until the draft gets nearer.

I'm only saying Shamet may go in the first round from that list of invitees. For example, Landry Shamet is presently listed at #16 by NBA Draft Net.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2018mock_draft

 

[Raze]

It's hard to know until the draft gets nearer.

I'm only saying Shamet may go in the first round from that list of invitees. For example, Landry Shamet is presently listed at #16 by NBA Draft Net.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2018mock_draft

Touche'

It's a good list up to #14. After that it seems likes it's anyone's guess as to who goes where.

Interesting that they have Jerome Robinson at #29 and Devonte Graham at #48. I couldn't disagree more about Robinson. He should be in the teens. Graham should be about 15 higher.

 

[Mainstreet]

Touche'

It's a good list up to #14. After that it seems likes it's anyone's guess as to who goes where.

Interesting that they have Jerome Robinson at #29 and Devonte Graham at #48. I couldn't disagree more about Robinson. He should be in the teens. Graham should be about 15 higher.

I do not see where I was "Touche.'" Just talking I thought.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Probably. But not at #16. There are a lot of guys in the late 20 to early 30's that could fit with us. Guys like:

Brunson
Melton
Graham
Shamet
Holiday

One of those might slip to #31, which is what I was inferring to. I doubt we're thinking about taking any of them at #16.

Its really interesting. Most fans think a player should go a certain place because the mocks have him going in a certain range. However, the team evaluations might be totally different. This is especially true from the middle of the first round on. I have no confidence that where mocks have a player slotted is anywhere close to accurate.

To me, this is especially true of Landry Shamet. His shooting numbers are primo. He led a very good team this year. He is a combo guard in the truest sense, he can play both positions. I think teams might have him rated higher than mocks do.

 

[Errntknght]

Can you take a guy at 16 that might learn to shoot one day?

On this team you can if he's a good enough defender. I'm not saying Melton qualifies but Raze surely seems to think so. Many guys improve their shooting once in league - and sometimes dramatically - but guys improving their defense significantly is very rare. Often they get worse when going against NBA players. I'd be more concerned about his other PG skills than his shooting. I know we need shooters, too, but backcourt defense is a huge priority, IMO.

 

[Hoop Head]

After seeing Payton won defensive awards in college I'm not sure how much stock can be placed in a players defense during his college career. If he shows potential to be a quality defender then hopefully the coaches can make him one.

Elfrid Payton won the Lefty Driesell Award in 2014, which is the best defensive player in Division 1 NCAA basketball. He also won the Sun Belt Defensive Player of the Year in 2014 also. Previous winners of the Driesell award include Anthony Davis and Kent Bazemore. Didn't find info for the all defensive player in the Sun Belt conference though. I remember scouting wise his defense was touted as a strength. He and Oladipo were supposed to form a great defensive pairing in the NBA for the Magic but that obviously never happened. Magic fans bashed his defense more than anything when he was traded also.

 

[AzStevenCal]

After seeing Payton won defensive awards in college I'm not sure how much stock can be placed in a players defense during his college career. If he shows potential to be a quality defender then hopefully the coaches can make him one.

Elfrid Payton won the Lefty Driesell Award in 2014, which is the best defensive player in Division 1 NCAA basketball. He also won the Sun Belt Defensive Player of the Year in 2014 also. Previous winners of the Driesell award include Anthony Davis and Kent Bazemore. Didn't find info for the all defensive player in the Sun Belt conference though. I remember scouting wise his defense was touted as a strength. He and Oladipo were supposed to form a great defensive pairing in the NBA for the Magic but that obviously never happened. Magic fans bashed his defense more than anything when he was traded also.

Yeah it's why I keep cautioning on players (especially perimeter players) that have an advantage in college that they may not have in the NBA. I'm talking about stronger, more physical players and those that play in unusual defensive systems or on strong defensive teams.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah it's why I keep cautioning on players (especially perimeter players) that have an advantage in college that they may not have in the NBA. I'm talking about stronger, more physical players and those that play in unusual defensive systems or on strong defensive teams.

Yeah, I agree with that. I remember talk of Barbosa having the tools to be a great defender but he never had a coach to get him going that way. You can tell more by a guys measurements if they'll be a good defender or have the potential to be one. Measurements seem to mean more than NCAA stats, especially if they're 1 and done.


I read an article not long ago from the Bucks GM about how he drafted players based on length because you can't teach length and athleticism and it's important to have because that's how the league is going in terms of style. I think this could be the one I read. I believe I read it in the actual magazine and that's why it doesn't look that familiar but reading it over real quick it seems familiar. I don't read much about the Bucks generally so I'm pretty sure this is that interview piece. It's with Bucks GM Jon Horst and it's a great read. It's obvious looking at the Bucks roster that they're a super long team. This goes into why they went that.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...iannis-antetokounmpo-bucks-plan-take-warriors

 

[AzStevenCal]

I read an article not long ago from the Bucks GM about how he drafted players based on length because you can't teach length and athleticism and it's important to have because that's how the league is going in terms of style. I think this could be the one I read. I believe I read it in the actual magazine and that's why it doesn't look that familiar but reading it over real quick it seems familiar. I don't read much about the Bucks generally so I'm pretty sure this is that interview piece. It's with Bucks GM Jon Horst and it's a great read. It's obvious looking at the Bucks roster that they're a super long team. This goes into why they went that.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/st...iannis-antetokounmpo-bucks-plan-take-warriors

I read something quite similar from Hinkie several years ago.

 

[Raze]

Probably. But not at #16. There are a lot of guys in the late 20 to early 30's that could fit with us. Guys like:

Brunson
Melton
Graham
Shamet
Holiday

One of those might slip to #31, which is what I was inferring to. I doubt we're thinking about taking any of them at #16.

I'm gonna go ahead and rescind the Shamet comment. (I spent the better part of my morning watching game film on him to get a more well rounded view.) Man, this guy is a heady player. You can see it all over the court. Taking charges, making smart passes while driving, staying within the flow of the O, taking over when his team needs him, getting everyone involved, talking to team mates between plays... This list goes on and on with this guy. He's literally a coach on the court. Oh yeah, and he just so happens to be a 44% 3 point shooter.

I was particular impressed with his ability to handle the point. He uses a lot of hesitations, change of pace, and cross overs to create separation. He's not particularly quick, but he knows how to compensate. He also makes passes that would indicate he's a student of the game. Carson Palmer was notorious for making passes where the player "should have been" on a route. I see a lot of those kind of passes from Landry. On drives he seems to instinctively know where his team mates are and finds them. Another subtle thing I noticed was his commitment to the offense. Many times these days a PG will try to take over the game and dominate the ball time. Landry does a great job of following what the coaches are asking him to do. When he receives the ball he quickly looks for and open team mate, then his shot, then quickly passes to the next man. I have a lot of respect for guys that COULD ball hog, but instead choose to be a team player.

Defensively he's a smart dude. While he's not the quickest defender, he makes up for it with preparation. He digs in and becomes enough of a nuisance to throw off his opponent. He also is student of the game and seems to know what players tend to like. This doesn't show up on stat sheets, but HCs fall in love with these kind of players. He needs to get his hand ready in lanes (like EVERY other player in existence) and he needs to concentrate on his foot work. There are times where he skips rather than chops. But its not an all the time thing. You can tell he's been working on it.

He excels at shooting. He's an underrated driver. He's smart on his drive and dishes. He can handle full court pressure. He's a student of the game. He can run an O. He's a team player.

Yeah, I'm all in on taking him at #16.

 

[Errntknght]

• Thanks for such a thorough write up Raze - and the work of digging it all up. I was concerned about his defense, and now I'm pretty convinced he passes muster. I'd rather have a guy that can smother his man - ala Jevon Carter - but you can't have everything you want in one player and Shawmet fills our need for shooting and running the offense much better than Carter.
• Maybe we'll draft Carter at 31 though Shaq Harrison or Isaiah Caanan might also fill the backup role and give us a guy that can be a real pest on D.

Wonder what I did to make this post with 'bullets'... I like it.

 

[overseascardfan]

I know PG is a need for PHX and the #16 pick is the logical spot to land one but I have become enamored with the possibility of taking Omari Spellman at #16. A key member of the NCAA champion VILL team who can be a stretch 4 with his ability to knock down the 3 and he is also a rim protector. Measured 6'9 with shoes with a 7'2 wingspan, 250 pounds (needs to get in better shape - 13% body fat) but he would make a fine pairing with Ayton providing the spacing in the paint for Ayton with his ability to draw defenders to perimeter because they have to respect his range.

PHX could retain Payton and maybe look for a back up with #31 (Jevon Carter or Jalen Brunson).

Shamet would actually be a good pick at #16 because of his ability to shoot and pass but also because he can play both on and off the ball so he and Booker could share ball handling duties. Shamet may not have quick twitch lateral movement but he has length, 6'5 with a 40 inch vertical and with Josh Jackson and potentially Spellman with Ayton he would have help against quicker guards.

 

[Hoop Head]

If the Suns don't draft a PG or make a trade for one during the draft I think Payton will be kept. That makes the most sense in terms of how their cap situation looks. They're not going to have a ton of cap space to play with unless they renounce everyone's rights so we'll probably know whether or not Payton is in the plans for the future by the time the draft finishes up.

 

[Mainstreet]

If the Suns don't draft a PG or make a trade for one during the draft I think Payton will be kept. That makes the most sense in terms of how their cap situation looks. They're not going to have a ton of cap space to play with unless they renounce everyone's rights so we'll probably know whether or not Payton is in the plans for the future by the time the draft finishes up.

I do think the Suns draft a PG independent of Payton unless the Suns trade some picks. The Suns need a starter at PG no matter who they draft as I view it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Here are the players working out for the Suns today.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Mainstreet]

And more.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[overseascardfan]

And more.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Okobo & Carter are intriguing if PHX goes after a PF at #16.