Ken Stabler

[conraddobler]

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/helmet-wars-and-new-helmet-could-protect-us-all

If you picture the brain as a dense jello inside a skull that should not move but does when hits are severe enough that's really what's going on.

The common idea is that it's rotational forces that are the most dangerous caused by all the varying angles hits occur at and probably the key to reducing this is a helmet that reduces rotational forces.

They are already on this and I expect they'll make great strides on this.

One way to also reduce injury is to get rid of ALL hardened parts of the uniform all the pads and hard plastic and replace it all with kevlar like padding.

The crunches would go away but the hits would be much less damaging.

 

[Matt L]

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/helmet-wars-and-new-helmet-could-protect-us-all

If you picture the brain as a dense jello inside a skull that should not move but does when hits are severe enough that's really what's going on.

The common idea is that it's rotational forces that are the most dangerous caused by all the varying angles hits occur at and probably the key to reducing this is a helmet that reduces rotational forces.

They are already on this and I expect they'll make great strides on this.

One way to also reduce injury is to get rid of ALL hardened parts of the uniform all the pads and hard plastic and replace it all with kevlar like padding.

The crunches would go away but the hits would be much less damaging.

I think this is a really good idea and I wonder if high schools or smaller college programs could look into implementing this type of gear. It might even be worth it for the NFL to invest in the technology and donate it to a high school or small college division to test the effectiveness.

That said, I agree with Russ' friend. There are going to be less and less kids playing football due to the health risks and more schools ending their football programs due to rising costs.

 

[ajcardfan]

You can sue for anything. The point is if your company was not telling you all the facts that could have allowed you to decide you no longer wanted to work there then yes they could indeed lose such a lawsuit.

There are 2 movies out about it right now the big hyped Concussion with Will Smith and a lesser known one called League of Denial. In both there's lots of evidence presented that the NFL has known for awhile and not disclosed to the players the true risks the players are taking.

Sure the players are choosing to play a violent game because they get paid well but the NFL has played hardball for years on pensions, health benefits etc.

I love to watch football too I hope there's some sort of happy medium here but this stuff is serious. Kurt Warner has been very outspoken about it and has said multiple times he doesn't really know how many concussions he actually had because he strongly suspects several times he was sent back into games with one because nobody checked. The concussion protocols are helping in that regard. We've seen players now held out several weeks for a concusion, when Stabler played those guys would have gone back in the same game let alone sat out weeks.

It would be totally sad if Warner turned out to be one of these tragic stories.

 

[187]

Indirectly related but Dave Mirra, whose a BMX legend, took his own life today. I can only imagine how many concussions he suffered throughout his career, will have to see if his family allows research to be done.

 

[chickenhead]

It's voluntary hazard job...I guess we shouldn't have cops, firemen, military, etc...All of those jobs are voluntary and very hazardous.

But we need cops, firefighters, and the military a lot more than we need football players. The former are taking the risk in the service of the public.

It would be one thing if the players were the only ones making money, but they're not. The owners and the league (not to mention advertisers and advertised brands) are making money--and the issue is whether these parties are unduly withholding information or compromising safety.

The issue may end up being most serious at the youth level. You might be able to argue that the NFL players are making a fair exchange, but it's harder to say that high school kids are waiving liability.

Anyway, good thread. Important thread.

 

[Iceman]

Indirectly related but Dave Mirra, whose a BMX legend, took his own life today. I can only imagine how many concussions he suffered throughout his career, will have to see if his family allows research to be done.

Without a doubt he probably had serious brain deterioration. What's sad is it was always just "you got your bell rung" and get up and go at it again. I'm sure (like many of you) I have had concussions that I never I had. I can recall many times hitting my head and seeing stars and getting up dizzy. Mirra probably had that everyday! I can bet that he didn't always wear a helmet either

 

[Russ Smith]

Without a doubt he probably had serious brain deterioration. What's sad is it was always just "you got your bell rung" and get up and go at it again. I'm sure (like many of you) I have had concussions that I never I had. I can recall many times hitting my head and seeing stars and getting up dizzy. Mirra probably had that everyday! I can bet that he didn't always wear a helmet either

My senior year of HS I got clobbered and hit the back of my head on the basketball court in a game. Guy was trying to foul me and got a running start.

I couldn't shoot the FT's, I was a bit wobbly but I actually wanted to stay in.

The next morning I was sitting at the breakfast table and told my mom I guess I'll go take a shower. She looked at me funny and said "are you ok?" I asked why and she pointed out my hair was still wet I'd just gotten out of the shower. I had absolutely no memory of taking a shower.

We eventually went to a doctor and just like you said it was got your bell rung. I remember them quizzing me and I had all these blanks like what I did after I got home from the game, what time I went to bed, when I got up etc. Was like blacking out from drinking except without actually drinking. Weirdest feeling I have ever had scared the crap out of me.

I've had 2 concussions that I know of one in 6th grade one in10th grade but I'm convinced that was a concussion too. I went to school with a guy a year ahead of me that had like 7 or 8 by the time he was a senior ni HS. His doctor made him quit football.

 

[Sunburn]

To me it's basically a job hazard. These guys choose to play this game. They are not forced into it. Make them sign a waiver when they enter the league, saying they are aware of the dangers and possibility of long term effects. The argument has always been that the players didn't know it was dangerous or they were misled by the NFL. It's no different than any other professional job hazard. I work in the construction industry, which has one of the highest fatality rates in the business. If these players are concerned about their health, go do something else for a living.

There's a problem with this. Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves. Say, gladiator fight to the deaths are being promoted. 20 million goes to the winner, 10 million goes to the family of the loser. Each fighter would sign a waiver. Some people would surely sign up. Would this be ok???

 

[AZCrazy]

That's exactly what this is. The modern day gladiatorial contests, knowing that injury is unavoidable, but glory and riches await the winners.

One more generation and the problem will be solved by robot players.



That is until the 'silicon players' union' gets a foothold.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

I don't care what information the league was sitting on about concussions, if you need a report stating that a violent game like football is hazardous to your health, and can cause massive head injuries, you probably aren't bright enough to read it, or understand it in the first place.

 

[LDL]

"The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned oh so very bright, Roy". I can think of many professions and one I am retired from, that shortens life span. To think the players now, have no idea what's what in this regard, is ludicrous. My point is everyday people are robbing Peter to pay Paul, and they are not making millions to hundreds of millions of dollars doing it. The players know the score. When does personal accountability come into play? On the older players, shame on the NFL. I agree that the game is going to change, just not sure if I like that.

 

[LDL]

There's a problem with this. Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves. Say, gladiator fight to the deaths are being promoted. 20 million goes to the winner, 10 million goes to the family of the loser. Each fighter would sign a waiver. Some people would surely sign up. Would this be ok???

What gives you the right to chose anything for me? People should be allowed to reap the benefits of their choices, for good or ill.

 

[Dude]

I don't care what information the league was sitting on about concussions, if you need a report stating that a violent game like football is hazardous to your health, and can cause massive head injuries, you probably aren't bright enough to read it, or understand it in the first place.

It's not that. It's that it was new information that was worse than anyone thought. We are talking about a mental disorder unthinkable. Not only that they were still pushing the big hit videos for profit while hiding what they knew.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

It's not that. It's that it was new information that was worse than anyone thought. We are talking about a mental disorder unthinkable. Not only that they were still pushing the big hit videos for profit while hiding what they knew.

Not buying it...... There is easily a century's worth of boxers, that tell you all you need to know about repeated blows to the head.

You don't need to be neurosurgeon to know that having your bell rung repeatedly is hazardous to your health.

There will always be lawyers who will convince otherwise rational people, that they are victims.

We can bank on that.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Not really following. CTE is specific to people who have suffered multiple concussions and head trauma. It used to be considered specific to boxing until researchers found out NFL players had been having it too. So there really aren't people with CTE who didn't play football or do something that led to concussions and brain trauma.

Now there are people who played that lived to an old age and might have even had CTE too, Gifford appears to be one. his family says for years he displayed evidence of dementia and other problems but near as I can tell they haven't gone into specifics so we have no idea to what degree or for how long.

NFL players die younger, we've known that for ages. We're now getting more specifics on why.

There is no easy answer if you change the game too much to protect players, the game won't be the same, like your NASCAR example.

It's also found in people who chronically abuse alcohol and, in the Stabler case, one is free to wonder how this impacted his results.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not buying it...... There is easily a century's worth of boxers, that tell you all you need to know about repeated blows to the head.

You don't need to be neurosurgeon to know that having your bell rung repeatedly is hazardous to your health.

There will always be lawyers who will convince otherwise rational people, that they are victims.

We can bank on that.

Nobody knew that the impact football players were taking was comparable. Again CTE used to be named directly after boxers because that was who everyone knew got it.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's also found in people who chronically abuse alcohol and, in the Stabler case, one is free to wonder how this impacted his results.

Do you have a link for that? I've found lots of evidence that people who have CTE are prone to being more likely to have issues with alcohol, and alcohol abuse and CTE certainly share symptoms, but I haven't found anything that says just drinking can lead to CTE. It's not just dementia and depression, it's those issues and others specifically caused by repeated physical head trauma.

But yes one of the reasons it took this long to determine the link between playing in the NFL and CTE is that many of the people who turned out to have it, also had dependency issues but again most research I've read indicates they are using BECAUSE they have CTE.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Nobody knew that the impact football players were taking was comparable. Again CTE used to be named directly after boxers because that was who everyone knew got it.

Nobody knew?

Seriously?

I've been watching the game since I was little kid, as far back as I can remember there have been football players getting up after a big hit, showing the exact same signs as a boxer during a standing 8 count.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Do you have a link for that? I've found lots of evidence that people who have CTE are prone to being more likely to have issues with alcohol, and alcohol abuse and CTE certainly share symptoms, but I haven't found anything that says just drinking can lead to CTE. It's not just dementia and depression, it's those issues and others specifically caused by repeated physical head trauma.

But yes one of the reasons it took this long to determine the link between playing in the NFL and CTE is that many of the people who turned out to have it, also had dependency issues but again most research I've read indicates they are using BECAUSE they have CTE.

No link.

Just read, more than once, that the scans of alcohol abusers and those who suffered from repeated concussive trauma mirrored each other.

 

[ajcardfan]

No link.

Just read, more than once, that the scans of alcohol abusers and those who suffered from repeated concussive trauma mirrored each other.

The definitive marker of CTE is very high levels of a protein called tau. Yes, alcoholism causes brain damage and dementia like CTE, but I don't know of a link between drinking and tau that eliminates concussions as a source of the tau protein.

 

[Dude]

Nobody knew?

Seriously?

I've been watching the game since I was little kid, as far back as I can remember there have been football players getting up after a big hit, showing the exact same signs as a boxer during a standing 8 count.

You miss the whole point. The NFL knew when asked how bad it was and they lied. They down played it to almost nothing. They needed to tell what the knew. People died that might not have if told what they knew. Of course everyone knows playing football is hazardous to your health. So are lot's of jobs and sports. What you can't do as the owner is lie about how hazardous it is knowing better and do nothing to make it safer. Not only did they do nothing they lied wanting even more.

The players asked. The NFL knew. The NFL lied to the players.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

You miss the whole point. The NFL knew when asked how bad it was and they lied. They down played it to almost nothing. They needed to tell what the knew. People died that might not have if told what they knew. Of course everyone knows playing football is hazardous to your health. So are lot's of jobs and sports. What you can't do as the owner is lie about how hazardous it is knowing better and do nothing to make it safer. Not only did they do nothing they lied wanting even more.

The players asked the NFL knew and lied to the players.

No....you're missing the point.

Pro football players need reports about injury, about as much as infantrymen need a report stating that a bullet through the head might kill you.

 

[Dude]

No....you're missing the point.

Pro football players need reports about injury, about as much as infantrymen need a report stating that a bullet through the head might kill you.

They didn't ask the NFL if they could get an injury playing football. They asked if they could be getting head trauma "past what was medically known before" and were lied to.

Lied to........... If that's ok with you that's on you.

The bullet thing is just ignorant.

 

[chickenhead]

Even ignoring the arguments about legislating safety and personal responsibility... Taking the players' point of view: the league/owners may have downplayed the risks in order to suppress player demand for a larger share of revenue, or, say, guaranteed contracts. Risk/reward: it looks like the league has manipulated to the owners' financial advantage.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

They didn't ask the NFL if they could get an injury playing football. They asked if they could be getting head trauma "past what was medically known before" and were lied to.

Lied to........... If that's ok with you that's on you.

The bullet thing is just ignorant.

I'm not saying it's right that they were lied to, I'm saying personal accountability means less and less, of course the NFL lied, it's a billion dollar industry.

Counting on the NFL for your health info, is about as stupid as relying on the tobacco industry for the effects of smoking, whether it be 60 years ago, or yesterday.