Warners 2nd half stats in '07

[sundevil04]

games - 8
completions - 199
attemps - 309
comp % - 64.4
td - 21
int - 12
yds - 2,362
rating - 94.1
W/L record - 5-3 (with a banged up defense)
pts/game - 31

Double those #'s to get a 16 game season's worth and those are pro bowl #'s EASY. 4,724 yards and 42 TD's!!!


I actually still believe Lienart should start because we need a QBOF but those are some impressive #'s and food for thought.

P.S. It's nice to be having a QB debate that consits of a 1rd pick, heisman/national champ vs. a super bowl champ, NFL MVP instead of the T.Rosenbach, C.Chandler, T.Tupa , S.Case, K.Grahm talk in past years.
__________________

 

[moklerman]

Throw in the dislocated elbow and continually injured Fitz and/or Boldin and it sure piques the curiosity about all of them playing in year two of the system and healthy.

 

[40yearfan]

games - 8
completions - 199
attemps - 309
comp % - 64.4
td - 21
int - 12
yds - 2,362
rating - 94.1
W/L record - 5-3 (with a banged up defense)
pts/game - 31

Double those #'s to get a 16 game season's worth and those are pro bowl #'s EASY. 4,724 yards and 42 TD's!!!


I actually still believe Lienart should start because we need a QBOF but those are some impressive #'s and food for thought.

P.S. It's nice to be having a QB debate that consits of a 1rd pick, heisman/national champ vs. a super bowl champ, NFL MVP instead of the T.Rosenbach, C.Chandler, T.Tupa , S.Case, K.Grahm talk in past years.
__________________

sd04, does it show the fumbles in the first half of the season versus the second half? Seems like there weren't as many in the second half even with the broken arm.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

games - 8
completions - 199
attemps - 309
comp % - 64.4
td - 21
int - 12
yds - 2,362
rating - 94.1
W/L record - 5-3 (with a banged up defense)
pts/game - 31

Double those #'s to get a 16 game season's worth and those are pro bowl #'s EASY. 4,724 yards and 42 TD's!!!


I actually still believe Lienart should start because we need a QBOF but those are some impressive #'s and food for thought.

P.S. It's nice to be having a QB debate that consits of a 1rd pick, heisman/national champ vs. a super bowl champ, NFL MVP instead of the T.Rosenbach, C.Chandler, T.Tupa , S.Case, K.Grahm talk in past years.
__________________

Seems to me like Kurt is the guy you are looking for to sling touchdowns when things are already out of hand. Look at Baltimore game, Look at his awesome line in the final game. But its more then coincidence that when you really need him (49ers game at home, New Orleans game, Tampa Bay) he blows you up.

Want further proof? What game has Leinart started that HE was the reason we lost the game? Even in the 49er game to begin last year where he looked terrible we were in the position to win that game if Green falls on the ball.

Thats why its imperative that you surround Leinart with right talent that make things happen. He will manage the game, give the illusion that we have a running game, and not kill you with costly INT's. We forget so easily. Wasn't Leinart showing the signs you wanted in 06? Didn't he win us the game against Seattle at home with a timely pass to Pope? Didnt Warner get pulled in goal line situations for freaking TIM RATTAY?

Its obvious to me that the coaching staff sees everything I see. Why is it so blind to some of the board here and the 40 year old moms who think Warner is the guy.

Maybe Warner will change his stripes and be that guy you can count on game in game out in his second season with Haley and Wiz.

Or maybe the coaching staff of the Rams, Giants, and Cardinals knwo something we don't. Namely that while he puts up good numbers, the safe bet until he proves otherwise is Leinart if what you want is to win games.

Now Leinart could ultimately prove me wrong and Warner will be the guy we go to if thats the case. But lets let him show that he can compund on the flashes he has shown us and be the guy to lead this team.

And if hes not and we do go to Warner? Well then we have bigger problems on our hands......

 

[BigRedRage]

games - 8
completions - 199
attemps - 309
comp % - 64.4
td - 21
int - 12
yds - 2,362
rating - 94.1
W/L record - 5-3 (with a banged up defense)
pts/game - 31

Double those #'s to get a 16 game season's worth and those are pro bowl #'s EASY. 4,724 yards and 42 TD's!!!


I actually still believe Lienart should start because we need a QBOF but those are some impressive #'s and food for thought.

P.S. It's nice to be having a QB debate that consits of a 1rd pick, heisman/national champ vs. a super bowl champ, NFL MVP instead of the T.Rosenbach, C.Chandler, T.Tupa , S.Case, K.Grahm talk in past years.
__________________

show me his previous 2 years stats with the team. Fumbles and interceptions + games he specifically lost.

 

[1DS]

Seems to me like Kurt is the guy you are looking for to sling touchdowns when things are already out of hand. Look at Baltimore game, Look at his awesome line in the final game. But its more then coincidence that when you really need him (49ers game at home, New Orleans game, Tampa Bay) he blows you up.

Want further proof? What game has Leinart started that HE was the reason we lost the game? Even in the 49er game to begin last year where he looked terrible we were in the position to win that game if Green falls on the ball.

Thats why its imperative that you surround Leinart with right talent that make things happen. He will manage the game, give the illusion that we have a running game, and not kill you with costly INT's. We forget so easily. Wasn't Leinart showing the signs you wanted in 06? Didn't he win us the game against Seattle at home with a timely pass to Pope? Didnt Warner get pulled in goal line situations for freaking TIM RATTAY?

Its obvious to me that the coaching staff sees everything I see. Why is it so blind to some of the board here and the 40 year old moms who think Warner is the guy.

Maybe Warner will change his stripes and be that guy you can count on game in game out in his second season with Haley and Wiz.

Or maybe the coaching staff of the Rams, Giants, and Cardinals knwo something we don't. Namely that while he puts up good numbers, the safe bet until he proves otherwise is Leinart if what you want is to win games.

Now Leinart could ultimately prove me wrong and Warner will be the guy we go to if thats the case. But lets let him show that he can compund on the flashes he has shown us and be the guy to lead this team.

And if hes not and we do go to Warner? Well then we have bigger problems on our hands......

You make a great point, and it's also one that I have never considered. Thanks for shedding some new light on a very split discussion.

Leinart did look really good his rookie year, didn't he? Remember his first start against KC, he didn't look like a rookie.

It's strange that he seemed to regress last season, his 2nd in the NFL, but it could have been a product of not having full knowledge of a more complicated playbook. Lets see how he does this year.

 

[moklerman]

show me his previous 2 years stats with the team. Fumbles and interceptions + games he specifically lost.

do you feel that the gloves are 100% irrelevant? They haven't changed Warner's ability to throw a spiral or hang onto the ball at all? If so, then the previous two years are relevant. I don't think that's that's the case.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

do you feel that the gloves are 100% irrelevant? They haven't changed Warner's ability to throw a spiral or hang onto the ball at all? If so, then the previous two years are relevant. I don't think that's that's the case.

See the argument gets muddled. Its not necessarily that warner SHOULDN'T be the starter. That would be hypocritical on my part. If Warner goes out and looks like an all pro and Matt is a towel boy then hell yeah lets get Warner in there.

The argument is should Leinart have been named the starter going into TC to get prepped for the season. And the answer to that is unequivically yes. Thats just sound coaching on Wiz's part. If Leinart falls on his face then lets see what Warner can do.

But its waaaay to early for that. I'll eat crow if at the end of preseason if Matt shows nothing and Warner lights it up. Till then this was the right decsion......

 

[moklerman]

Seems to me like Kurt is the guy you are looking for to sling touchdowns when things are already out of hand. Look at Baltimore game, Look at his awesome line in the final game. But its more then coincidence that when you really need him (49ers game at home, New Orleans game, Tampa Bay) he blows you up.

Tampa Bay was certainly a bad game but they've always had his number so it wasn't much of a surprise. SF and NO, he was 53/78 717 5 td 3 int 102.4 rating. Not perfect in those games but just as Leinart had the Cards in a position to win vs. SF, Warner did as well.

Didnt Warner get pulled in goal line situations for freaking TIM RATTAY?

You're not confusing a dislocated elbow with Rattay being considered better than Warner are you?

Or maybe the coaching staff of the Rams, Giants, and Cardinals knwo something we don't. Namely that while he puts up good numbers, the safe bet until he proves otherwise is Leinart if what you want is to win games.

Warner was and has been rightfully benched because of his fumbling problems, not his passing problems. I think you're confusing the issues. His ball handling/fumbling was exposed from '03-'06 because of some truly terrible o-line's but he has also shown a willingness, as has Whisenhunt, to address and improve this problem. Leinart isn't particularly "safe" in terms of turnovers either. He had 8 fumbles his rookie year and has 3 more int's than td's in about 1 full year's worth of games. I agree that fumbling less is a good thing though and Warner's rate of fumbling decreased from 3.5 % (19 fumbles in 533 attempts+sacks) in '05/'06 w/o gloves to 2.3%(12 fumbles in 518 attempts+sacks) in '06/'07 w/gloves. Still too many but not too far removed from a top QB like Roethlisberger who was at 1.99%. As I recall, at least a few of these fumbles were simply categorized as Warner fumbles too. Bad shotgun snap that Warner got a finger on, Edge dropping a good handoff...things like that.

Overall, I think Warner made major strides with his fumbling problem last year and that was with a dislocated elbow. Between adopting the gloves, being healthy and ball handling drills this offseason, he may improve even more the next time he plays.

 

[john h]

Seems to me like Kurt is the guy you are looking for to sling touchdowns when things are already out of hand. Look at Baltimore game, Look at his awesome line in the final game. But its more then coincidence that when you really need him (49ers game at home, New Orleans game, Tampa Bay) he blows you up.

Want further proof? What game has Leinart started that HE was the reason we lost the game? Even in the 49er game to begin last year where he looked terrible we were in the position to win that game if Green falls on the ball.

Thats why its imperative that you surround Leinart with right talent that make things happen. He will manage the game, give the illusion that we have a running game, and not kill you with costly INT's. We forget so easily. Wasn't Leinart showing the signs you wanted in 06? Didn't he win us the game against Seattle at home with a timely pass to Pope? Didnt Warner get pulled in goal line situations for freaking TIM RATTAY?

Its obvious to me that the coaching staff sees everything I see. Why is it so blind to some of the board here and the 40 year old moms who think Warner is the guy.

Maybe Warner will change his stripes and be that guy you can count on game in game out in his second season with Haley and Wiz.

Or maybe the coaching staff of the Rams, Giants, and Cardinals knwo something we don't. Namely that while he puts up good numbers, the safe bet until he proves otherwise is Leinart if what you want is to win games.

Now Leinart could ultimately prove me wrong and Warner will be the guy we go to if thats the case. But lets let him show that he can compund on the flashes he has shown us and be the guy to lead this team.

And if hes not and we do go to Warner? Well then we have bigger problems on our hands......

Kurt did all this with no running game and teams lined up to stop the pass and put pressure on him. If we cannot run and Matt is in there he will get a real taste of NFL pressure. Can he do it or can he survive it. Kurt is not fast but he can get rid of the ball real fast and recognize the blitz other wise he does not have those good numbers.

 

[moklerman]

But its waaaay to early for that. I'll eat crow if at the end of preseason if Matt shows nothing and Warner lights it up. Till then this was the right decsion......

I actually agree with you but for different reasons. I feel that this is psychological warfare on Whis's part. I think his naming of Leinart as starter is multi-layered in purpose. First, I think Leinart needs that status for his ego and focus. Not in a bad way necessarily but he seemed to be very disgruntled about Warner's success and his own struggles last year. Warner, on the other hand, has had to try fend and off the young, high priced, buck for so many years now that I think Whis believes he will benefit from being the guy who can take the job. Age is a factor in terms of the future of the team but to me, the window for success is way too small to not give the job to the best candidate. I would have named Warner the starter and made Leinart earn it but I think there is a method to Whis' approach and will defer to him since I'm not the one being paid millions to do it for a living.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Kurt did all this with no running game and teams lined up to stop the pass and put pressure on him. If we cannot run and Matt is in there he will get a real taste of NFL pressure. Can he do it or can he survive it. Kurt is not fast but he can get rid of the ball real fast and recognize the blitz other wise he does not have those good numbers.

Chicken before the egg my man - we couldnt run the ball effectively because warner telegraphed the play before hand - he had too throw the ball because running wasn't an effective option. THATS why he was pulled out on goal line - not because of his elbow.

And he recognizes the blitz? Like in San Francisco at home last year? If anything Warner's problem is the exact opposite of what you say. He holds on to the ball too long.

 

[BigRedRage]

do you feel that the gloves are 100% irrelevant? They haven't changed Warner's ability to throw a spiral or hang onto the ball at all? If so, then the previous two years are relevant. I don't think that's that's the case.

lol why are you talking about gloves? You cant discount his bad years here just because this year he has gloves on.

 

[1DS]

I believe that when Warner was asked about his propensity to fumble, he responded with a statement about how he is now wearing the gloves, which give him a better grip on the ball, allow a tighter spiral, etc. Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[joeshmo]

Kurt did all this with no running game and teams lined up to stop the pass and put pressure on him. If we cannot run and Matt is in there he will get a real taste of NFL pressure. Can he do it or can he survive it. Kurt is not fast but he can get rid of the ball real fast and recognize the blitz other wise he does not have those good numbers.

The run game issue is partly on Kurt. Kurt himself said that when given the chance he is going to audible into a pass play 9 times out of 10. Doesnt lend to a consistent run game. Edge's yards per carry went from over 4 yards a game with Matt in the lineup to under 4 yards a game when Kurt began starting games.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Tampa Bay was certainly a bad game but they've always had his number so it wasn't much of a surprise. SF and NO, he was 53/78 717 5 td 3 int 102.4 rating. Not perfect in those games but just as Leinart had the Cards in a position to win vs. SF, Warner did as well.

You like all the Warner promoters always point to the numbers. My point in those two aftermentioned games is not his line to end the game but the TO's that cost us the game. IN OT in the end zone and the turnover in our zone when we were coming back in NO in a game we HAD to win. Watch the games my man.

You're not confusing a dislocated elbow with Rattay being considered better than Warner are you?

I'm not sure what medical diagnosis you are looking at but Warner was pulle don the goal line so we could still be seen as a viable running threat to punch the ball in. NOT because of his elbow? I'm not doctor but how does that even make sense? If he can sling it for 5 yards at the 50 he can sling it for 5 yards at the GL too. I understand that was partially because of his elbow but....

Warner was and has been rightfully benched because of his fumbling problems, not his passing problems. I think you're confusing the issues. His ball handling/fumbling was exposed from '03-'06 because of some truly terrible o-line's but he has also shown a willingness, as has Whisenhunt, to address and improve this problem. Leinart isn't particularly "safe" in terms of turnovers either. He had 8 fumbles his rookie year and has 3 more int's than td's in about 1 full year's worth of games. I agree that fumbling less is a good thing though and Warner's rate of fumbling decreased from 3.5 % (19 fumbles in 533 attempts+sacks) in '05/'06 w/o gloves to 2.3%(12 fumbles in 518 attempts+sacks) in '06/'07 w/gloves. Still too many but not too far removed from a top QB like Roethlisberger who was at 1.99%. As I recall, at least a few of these fumbles were simply categorized as Warner fumbles too. Bad shotgun snap that Warner got a finger on, Edge dropping a good handoff...things like that.

Leinarts turnovers seem to come at different times. I cannot think of a time when we needed him to score and he turned it over. Thats Kurts problem, when its gets hairy he starts trying to do too much and.....

Overall, I think Warner made major strides with his fumbling problem last year and that was with a dislocated elbow. Between adopting the gloves, being healthy and ball handling drills this offseason, he may improve even more the next time he plays.

Answers in BLUE

 

[moklerman]

lol why are you talking about gloves? You cant discount his bad years here just because this year he has gloves on.

I disagree. He isn't fumbling at the ridiculous rate he was from '03-'06 and the reduced pace perfectly coincides with the wearing of the gloves. The Warner playing now, isn't comparable to the Warner of '05-'06(IMO) in terms of fumbling. Decision making and interceptions perhaps, but not fumbling.

Chicken before the egg my man - we couldnt run the ball effectively because warner telegraphed the play before hand - he had too throw the ball because running wasn't an effective option. THATS why he was pulled out on goal line - not because of his elbow.

Huh? Warner was telegraphing pass plays in goal line situations? I'm pretty sure it's well established that Whis was concerned about Warner's elbow when Rattay was being sent in for goal line plays. When you also factor in that later in the year, Warner wasn't pulled(after he quit handing off exclusively with his right hand) in similar situations it stands to reason that the elbow was a significant part of the decision.

 

[BigRedRage]

I disagree. He isn't fumbling at the ridiculous rate he was from '03-'06 and the reduced pace perfectly coincides with the wearing of the gloves. The Warner playing now, isn't comparable to the Warner of '05-'06(IMO) in terms of fumbling. Decision making and interceptions perhaps, but not fumbling.
Huh? Warner was telegraphing pass plays in goal line situations? I'm pretty sure it's well established that Whis was concerned about Warner's elbow when Rattay was being sent in for goal line plays. When you also factor in that later in the year, Warner wasn't pulled(after he quit handing off exclusively with his right hand) in similar situations it stands to reason that the elbow was a significant part of the decision.

So 03-06 stats and accomplishments (or lack of) get negated because he wore gloves for half of 07 and did well? He will still fumble and make the poor decisions and maybe matt will too but im not giving gloves the credit to win him the job. I like both QB's, I want Matt to start and do well for our future. I think kurt could do well too but i remember his past and dont want to repeat it, glove or no glove. Besides, like mentioned above, Warner is bad at the running game, he is too slow and hands off too late.

 

[moklerman]

You like all the Warner promoters always point to the numbers. My point in those two aftermentioned games is not his line to end the game but the TO's that cost us the game. IN OT in the end zone and the turnover in our zone when we were coming back in NO in a game we HAD to win. Watch the games my man.

I'm not arguing that the timing of some of his turnovers haven't been critical but you lumped in games where he clearly didn't implode with the Tampa Bay game where he did. Your point was lost in that mix as far as I'm concerned. I don't think he imploded in the NO game and although his sack/fumble was pivotal, it was followed by a Card's TD drive, FG drive and NO then holding the ball 6 minutes to end the game. Warner made some mistakes but overall 3 TD's and 2 turnovers(1 pick/1 fumble) isn't insurmountable. Brees' 26/30 300+ day and Aaron Stecker(4th string RB for NO?) putting up 95 and 2 TD's was much more of an issue to me. The SF game is on Rackers as far as I'm concerned. Warner wasn't perfect but, much like Manning's day vs. San Diego, sometimes a QB needs a little help from his kicker after a long day behind center.

I'm not sure what medical diagnosis you are looking at but Warner was pulle don the goal line so we could still be seen as a viable running threat to punch the ball in. NOT because of his elbow? I'm not doctor but how does that even make sense?

Well, when he's physically unable to hand the ball off with his left hand, it severely limits the options for the offense. Once he established that he could hand off with both hands again, he quit getting pulled in favor of Rattay.

Leinarts turnovers seem to come at different times. I cannot think of a time when we needed him to score and he turned it over. Thats Kurts problem, when its gets hairy he starts trying to do too much and.....

Well, the Seattle game was 17-7 Cards, Leinart throws a pick that led to a Seahawks TD. Following AZ drive was a punt, then a FG then a gift from Hasslebeck, James run, run, run, then FG to end the game. A "win" for Leinart but not what I'd really consider a recipe for continued success. The Minnesota game in '06, the Cardinals down by 5 with the ball at the Minnesota 36. Incomplete, incomplete, interception to end the game.

I'm sure there is more if one looked but I think it leads to the idea that Warner's turnovers are magnified in some cases and his ability now is sometimes confused with his limitations and struggles from '03-'06. Not entirely, but I do think there is a stigma attached to Warner that is sometimes unfair.

 

[moklerman]

So 03-06 stats and accomplishments (or lack of) get negated because he wore gloves for half of 07 and did well?

Actually, since his relief of Leinart in game 15(week 16) of '06 he's been wearing the gloves and his fumbles and overall stat's are markedly improved when compared to recent time without the gloves. When discussing his fumbles, I think that makes his '05-'06 time with the Cardinals less comparable. Not irrelevant, but I don't see it as a true comparison. Kind of like comparing a pitcher's stat's before and after he's had surgery. Same guy but the situation is quite different.

Besides, like mentioned above, Warner is bad at the running game, he is too slow and hands off too late.

Marshall Faulk's and Tiki Barber's running games didn't seem to suffer too much with Warner handing them the ball. I'd be hard pressed to consider Warner's handoffs as any kind of a problem(unless we're talking about when he temporarily had to hand off exclusively with his right hand).

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I disagree. He isn't fumbling at the ridiculous rate he was from '03-'06 and the reduced pace perfectly coincides with the wearing of the gloves. The Warner playing now, isn't comparable to the Warner of '05-'06(IMO) in terms of fumbling. Decision making and interceptions perhaps, but not fumbling.
Huh? Warner was telegraphing pass plays in goal line situations? I'm pretty sure it's well established that Whis was concerned about Warner's elbow when Rattay was being sent in for goal line plays. When you also factor in that later in the year, Warner wasn't pulled(after he quit handing off exclusively with his right hand) in similar situations it stands to reason that the elbow was a significant part of the decision.

Can someone get mokler a Youtube clip of Warners arm extended out to hand off the ball 5 seconds before it gets to Edge please?

 

[BigRedRage]

Actually, since his relief of Leinart in game 15(week 16) of '06 he's been wearing the gloves and his fumbles and overall stat's are markedly improved when compared to recent time without the gloves. When discussing his fumbles, I think that makes his '05-'06 time with the Cardinals less comparable. Not irrelevant, but I don't see it as a true comparison. Kind of like comparing a pitcher's stat's before and after he's had surgery. Same guy but the situation is quite different.
Marshall Faulk's and Tiki Barber's running games didn't seem to suffer too much with Warner handing them the ball. I'd be hard pressed to consider Warner's handoffs as any kind of a problem(unless we're talking about when he temporarily had to hand off exclusively with his right hand).

regardless, I am not going to give gloves so much credit that we forget the past and decide he suddenly is not turnover prone.

Faulk and Barber maybe didnt but I didnt watch those teams, I watch the Cardinals. When he is on the cardinals, he hands off to slow and it slows up edge. I am using this comparison vs lienart in the same game on the same team.

 

[BigRedRage]

Can someone get mokler a Youtube clip of Warners arm extended out to hand off the ball 5 seconds before it gets to Edge please?

lol seriously, he is so slow on handoffs it is like tipping the hat from the get go.

 

[moklerman]

Can someone get mokler a Youtube clip of Warners arm extended out to hand off the ball 5 seconds before it gets to Edge please?

While you're there, pull up a clip of Peyton doing the same thing. It's called the stretch offense and is by design. It's supposed to increase the effectiveness of play action but the Cardinals rarely run play action so the benefit is lost.

I watch the Cardinals. When he is on the cardinals, he hands off to slow and it slows up edge. I am using this comparison vs lienart in the same game on the same team

Well, I have to admit this is the most ridiculous idea that I've come across in the many Warner discussions that I subject myself to. But, to be fair, please tell me which game(s) you mean so I can see what the numbers have to show.

 

[BigRedRage]

While you're there, pull up a clip of Peyton doing the same thing. It's called the stretch offense and is by design. It's supposed to increase the effectiveness of play action but the Cardinals rarely run play action so the benefit is lost.
Well, I have to admit this is the most ridiculous idea that I've come across in the many Warner discussions that I subject myself to. But, to be fair, please tell me which game(s) you mean so I can see what the numbers have to show.

how about half of last season vs the other half?

Just watch the play develop, youll see what I mean.

As I said, I am an unbiased cardinals fan, not a fully biased fan like you. I do not care who our QB is I am just pointing out that in no way should warner have a better shot at getting the job, he was benched for a reason.