Your D Plan Vs the Cards

GimmedaBall

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If you were the opposing team’s DC, how would you game plan against the Cards? Pretend you are Belicheat and sons.

How would you stop KM’s runs?
How would you stop KM's passing game? DHOP?
How would you stop each of the WRs?
How would you stop the run game with Drake/Edmonds?

Here’s the Next Gen Passing Chart for KM:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts.../week/kyler-murray/MUR670413/2020/all/qb-grid

Here’s the Next Gen Charts for the top four Cards by game:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/list/type/arizona-cardinals/2020/11

Indicate if you think KM is fully healthy or if he will be restricted with his shoulder. Cards look fairly healthy on their O. Consider the game plan that Seattle DC Ken Norton used against us.

Put on your ragged hoodie and only mumble while making your game plan.
 

juza76

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The best scheme is to hit early in the game and let him play scared
The, Seahawks even if it is a subpar defense they did this and Murray has played his worst game
 

BritCard

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This is off topic but as nowhere better to put it...

Kliff needs to stop exclusively running Kyler inside the 10. Why would anyone buy the fake hand-off when Kyler runs it every single time?
 
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GimmedaBall

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Article from last year before our 2019 opener vs Detroit from Charley Cassidy on how to defeat K2/KM.:

https://www.nfl.com/news/cardinals-...kliff-kingsbury-kyler-murray-0ap3000001051542

Also, remember how K2 kept the dreaded offense he was bringing to the NFL underwraps during pre-season. All we got in the 2019 preseason was some vanilla offensive plays. This year, no preseason at all. So, for the past two years we really didn't get after the offensive playbook except in acutal games. That might be a reason KM and the receivers are a hair out of sync.
 
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GimmedaBall

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What Harry said. And I'm shading more outside the hashes with my safeties as Kyler struggles up to intermediate middle.

That's what the Next Gen Passing Grid for KM suggests to me as well. It's also what the eye tells a fan watching the game---we're not using the middle of the field.

(Looks like the links I posted are not taking up directly to the page but opening up an ad for NFL pass. If that's the case, do a search of Next Gen NFL stats Kyler Murray. Turn off any Ad Blockers, accept cookies to navigate to the different charts)

Take a look at the routes by HOP vs this last Seattle game as compared to his routes in other games. That's something you see when a WR is injured and kept protected along the sidelines---it could also be a nod to Jalen Adams returning to the lineup.

Wonder how long it's going to be before a DB jumps that 10 yard route to HOP along the sideline and takes it to the house. KM is taking that toss for granted.
 
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GimmedaBall

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Do everything to keep him in the pocket and make him beat you with his arm.

We'll see just how bad his shoulder was injured if it is K2 who keeps him in the pocket and not the D. If a D keeps him behind the LOS but also gets him on the move, his placement goes to heck.
 

BritCard

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They also have a staff who has seen him multiple times and are familiar with his tendencies. Division rivals will always present this frustration, imo.

Yes, but it's on tape now as a reference for everyone else.
 

JosiahLee

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They also have a staff who has seen him multiple times and are familiar with his tendencies. Division rivals will always present this frustration, imo.

This is what I was thinking. Pat’s D have never experienced Kyler Murray in person. (Let’s hope he’s healed up fully by next Sunday!)
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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Without having the benefit of studying tape, I would try the following:

1. My rush would be up the middle every play with 2 guys, DTs, or 1 DT and 1 LB. I would mix it up each play by lining up 2 different combinations, sometimes dropping 1 or the other back when S rushes from far outside. When it's 3rd and extra long (15+ yds), I would sometimes rush only 1 DT and both DEs, and occasionally bring the house (both DTs, LB, DEs, & S).

2. Both DEs would push up and out, not too deep or fully rushing the QB. Idea is to take claim to the outside, keep him in pocket, containing any and all outside runs, leaving DEs free to extend their arms trying to knock down passes thrown towards either sideline. Also, having their arms raised high, would often force the smaller Murray to throw more looping type passes to the sidelines. These are in the air longer and would give the DBs more time to defend or intercept. On running plays, he would be forced toward the middle where the main rush is coming from.

3. DBs would always play up in a bump and run type defense, getting help over the top from both safeties. LBs, would play close to line to disguise who is rushing, and when not, would defend the run, short passes over the middle, while being responsible for the TE and the back swinging out of backfield. The DEs, since never fully committing to rushing the passer, would be expected to assist in defending screen and swing pass situations.

4. Safeties, when not blitzing, would of course be responsible in supporting the DBs, defending the deep passes, and closing on runners who get past the first level.

5. Main thing is mix it up, to where the offense never knows what is coming next. All of this is only as good as the players. In any defense, you have to have the kind of players who fit that style and situation. I prefer speed and sure tackling over anything else. Speed can make up a lot for lack of size, errors in play, and situational mistakes.
 
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oaken1

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I would run the ball and use the short passing game to take advantage of a weak defensive front... eating up the clock with seven minute drives..... since Az always starts slow this should give me a 21-0 lead at halftime.

doing the same thing in the second half keeps Murray off the field so Az never has a chance to catch up.

I win 35-21
 
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GimmedaBall

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Without having the benefit of studying tape, I would try the following:

1. My rush would be up the middle every play with 2 guys, DTs, or 1 DT and 1 LB. I would mix it up each play by lining up 2 different combinations, sometimes dropping 1 or the other back when S rushes from far outside. When it's 3rd and extra long (15+ yds), I would sometimes rush only 1 DT and both DEs, and occasionally bring the house (both DTs, LB, DEs, & S).

2. Both DEs would push up and out, not too deep or fully rushing the QB. Idea is to take claim to the outside, keep him in pocket, containing any and all outside runs, leaving DEs free to extend their arms trying to knock down passes thrown towards either sideline. Also, having their arms raised high, would often force the smaller Murray to throw more looping type passes to the sidelines. These are in the air longer and would give the DBs more time to defend or intercept. On running plays, he would be forced toward the middle where the main rush is coming from.

3. DBs would always play up in a bump and run type defense, getting help over the top from both safeties. LBs, would play close to line to disguise who is rushing, and when not, would defend the run, short passes over the middle, while being responsible for the TE and the back swinging out of backfield. The DEs, since never fully committing to rushing the passer, would be expected to assist in defending screen and swing pass situations.

4. Safeties, when not blitzing, would of course be responsible in supporting the DBs, defending the deep passes, and closing on runners who get past the first level.

5. Main thing is mix it up, to where the offense never knows what is coming next. All of this is only as good as the players. In any defense, you have to have the kind of players who fit that style and situation. I prefer speed and sure tackling over anything else. Speed can make up a lot for lack of size, errors in play, and situational mistakes.

There's a lot to like (or dislike if you are a Card fan) in your game plan. The big key is when Murray is held to fewer than 30 rushing yards, the Cardinals are 1-8-1. We should see early on vs the Pats if the shoulder sprain from the SeaTurkey game is part of the equation. KM's runs may be limited not by anything the D is doing but because of the concern over further injury should he run and take any kind of hit. Your game plan to contain KM behind the LOS will require discipline on the part of the D since everyone wants to be the guy to nail KM for a sack or force an INT. That 10+ yard sideline pass to DHOP is happening way too often---KM is getting lax in his delivery--almost like he is tossing a ball back-and-forth during warm-up. Give the DB protection over the top and let him streak in for the INT. Bottle KM behind the LOS and let him move out of the pocket as he probes for vacant running lanes---he is not accurate on the run, throws awkward passes that will get our receivers killed, will get more intentional grounding penalities.

Also, school the D in some of KM's tells as he plays. He still stares down the primary receiver on too many plays (Cards should switch him to the tinted face shield to keep the D from seeing his eyes). He still 'pats' the ball as he looks in the direction he is going to throw while he waits for the receiver to complete his break and settle into the spot in the zone. D should jump the WR's who are coming to a stop while waiting for the ball---this is already happening to Fitz and Kirk too often. D should play the WR and not the spot that you would anticipate a QB to throw the ball---KM is still trying to hit a stationary target (like a centerfielder in baseball throwing the ball to the infield) Cards not getting much YAC with the dink-dunk 5-10 yard throws. KM is wearing golden shoes---can the D players track those?

Cards not getting much from the slot WR---check out the KM passes to the middle of the field. The DL need to time the hands in the air with the way KM winds up on a throw. (We need to look at the batted balls so far and determine who was the target? How many were headed to the slot WR or TE over the middle?) A few years ago, it looked like Fitz was toast and then BA convinced him he could extend his career by moving inside and becoming a slot receiver similar to the Heinz Ward role back when BA was coaching with the Steelers. Fitz took the challenge and returned to 1,000+ yards receiving along with becoming an effective blocker. Yards in K2's offense that should be obtained by the slot receiver are instead yards that KM accomplishes with his runs. To complete the nullification of the slot receiver in K2's game plan, eliminate the KM runs. Fitz has gone from one of the top 5 slot receivers to an afterthought and the guy who is good for a 5-to-10 yard possession catch. The key to stopping the Cards: When Murray is held to fewer than 30 rushing yards, the Cardinals are 1-8-1.
 

Russ Smith

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I think it's just fans in general but everytime a team has a bad game people say wow that's the blueprint on how to defend Kyler Murray the rest of the NFL is going to know this going forward. that's what was said after Detroit and Carolina and then Kyler put up good numbers for weeks and nobody talked about it. Then he gets hurt and has a "bad" game that was still not all that bad and suddenly there's the blueprint.

If the shoulder is a problem yes he'll probably struggle against NE and the Rams because he'll be reluctant to run and that will take away a weapon. If he's healthy, he'll be Kyler Murray again IMO
 
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GimmedaBall

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I think it's just fans in general but everytime a team has a bad game people say wow that's the blueprint on how to defend Kyler Murray the rest of the NFL is going to know this going forward. that's what was said after Detroit and Carolina and then Kyler put up good numbers for weeks and nobody talked about it. Then he gets hurt and has a "bad" game that was still not all that bad and suddenly there's the blueprint.

If the shoulder is a problem yes he'll probably struggle against NE and the Rams because he'll be reluctant to run and that will take away a weapon. If he's healthy, he'll be Kyler Murray again IMO

So, what would your D game plan be against the Cardinals (the title of this thread)?
 

Russ Smith

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So, what would your D game plan be against the Cardinals (the title of this thread)?


I think he throws better from the pocket than outside the pocket so if you want him to beat you by throwing the ball you should get him OUT of the pocket. But then he can run, so you want him IN the pocket. But he throws better from there. Which is why I think he has the numbers he has this year, nobody is quite sure what works.

I would try to make him use the middle of the field because of his size, he has to see over the line in the middle of the field.

But honestly the key thing IMO is the middle of the line, IMO the main issue he had with the Rams last year was the middle of their DL, they were getting push up the middle so he couldn't run up the middle and was just never comfortable in the pocket. 163 yards passing 0 Td 1 pick in the first game, only 28 yards rushing. In the next game 325 yards 2 TD's but 2 picks and 0 yards rushing.

My point is I don't think it's some blueprint on how to defend Murray, I think the Rams have Aaron Donald who's the best interior DL on the planet, best DL period on the planet, he's so good and so quick that Kyler was never able to get comfortable against them last year. The 49ers had a better overall D and had Buckner, Bosa etc and Kyler still played quite well against them both times last year. Buckner is a great player too but not nearly the pass rusher that Donald is and not nearly as quick, Donald was able to at times trick Kyler into trying to step up and run and then get there and either take him down or flush him, Buckner couldn't do that.

So I think if I had Aaron Donald I'd let him be who he is, if I don't, I'd probably try to take D Hop away and make Kyler beat me with others. Right now with his shoulder I think I'd also try and make him run a bit more so I can get some hits on him

All in all I think the key to us in our wins is Kyler takes what's there, teams that try and stop him running he throws or uses the RB's, teams that try to take something else away he runs. I've been saying since we drafted him there's a fine line between running QB's taking too many hits which is why I don't really like running QB's, and a guy like Kyler who for the most part rarely gets hit. Last year early on I felt he needed to run more, now I think he has really found the right mix between when to run and when not to for the most part. In the last game I think he didn't run because of the shoulder and it impacted our offense, but I got why he wasn't running more.
 

Russ Smith

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I should add I think the keys to the game on how NE defends Kyler will be 2 things, the health of his shoulder, and the weather. if it's cold, wet, rain/snow etc how will Kyler handle that, we really haven't seen that with him yet I don't recall him playing in cold weather yet so that will be a question we'll get answered on Sunday. If he's healthy, and handles the weather OK, I think he'll be fine.
 

cardpa

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I should add I think the keys to the game on how NE defends Kyler will be 2 things, the health of his shoulder, and the weather. if it's cold, wet, rain/snow etc how will Kyler handle that, we really haven't seen that with him yet I don't recall him playing in cold weather yet so that will be a question we'll get answered on Sunday. If he's healthy, and handles the weather OK, I think he'll be fine.

As of right now the forecast is for a high of 47 degrees and sunny, but we all know that can change by the time Sunday gets here.
 

Cardsfaninlouky

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Just try to be dirty like Seattle & have 2 players smash KM to the ground with all their weight on him. In today's NFL that is sometimes a personal foul penalty. They wanna protect the star QB's so viewers can see the best ones play. I've seen it called many times where the defensive player allowed all their body weight to force the QB into the ground & a penalty was called. I was listening to the game on the radio during that play & didn't see it. If in fact both players put all their weight into KM while driving him into the ground, then a penalty should've been called?
 

BritCard

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There's a lot to like (or dislike if you are a Card fan) in your game plan. The big key is when Murray is held to fewer than 30 rushing yards, the Cardinals are 1-8-1. We should see early on vs the Pats if the shoulder sprain from the SeaTurkey game is part of the equation. KM's runs may be limited not by anything the D is doing but because of the concern over further injury should he run and take any kind of hit. Your game plan to contain KM behind the LOS will require discipline on the part of the D since everyone wants to be the guy to nail KM for a sack or force an INT. That 10+ yard sideline pass to DHOP is happening way too often---KM is getting lax in his delivery--almost like he is tossing a ball back-and-forth during warm-up. Give the DB protection over the top and let him streak in for the INT. Bottle KM behind the LOS and let him move out of the pocket as he probes for vacant running lanes---he is not accurate on the run, throws awkward passes that will get our receivers killed, will get more intentional grounding penalities.

Also, school the D in some of KM's tells as he plays. He still stares down the primary receiver on too many plays (Cards should switch him to the tinted face shield to keep the D from seeing his eyes). He still 'pats' the ball as he looks in the direction he is going to throw while he waits for the receiver to complete his break and settle into the spot in the zone. D should jump the WR's who are coming to a stop while waiting for the ball---this is already happening to Fitz and Kirk too often. D should play the WR and not the spot that you would anticipate a QB to throw the ball---KM is still trying to hit a stationary target (like a centerfielder in baseball throwing the ball to the infield) Cards not getting much YAC with the dink-dunk 5-10 yard throws. KM is wearing golden shoes---can the D players track those?

Cards not getting much from the slot WR---check out the KM passes to the middle of the field. The DL need to time the hands in the air with the way KM winds up on a throw. (We need to look at the batted balls so far and determine who was the target? How many were headed to the slot WR or TE over the middle?) A few years ago, it looked like Fitz was toast and then BA convinced him he could extend his career by moving inside and becoming a slot receiver similar to the Heinz Ward role back when BA was coaching with the Steelers. Fitz took the challenge and returned to 1,000+ yards receiving along with becoming an effective blocker. Yards in K2's offense that should be obtained by the slot receiver are instead yards that KM accomplishes with his runs. To complete the nullification of the slot receiver in K2's game plan, eliminate the KM runs. Fitz has gone from one of the top 5 slot receivers to an afterthought and the guy who is good for a 5-to-10 yard possession catch. The key to stopping the Cards: When Murray is held to fewer than 30 rushing yards, the Cardinals are 1-8-1.

That 1-8-1 record when Kyler doesn't run is concerning. It suggests 2 things.

Our run game without Kyler is weak or inconsistent and our passing game doesn't work very well without a complimentary run game. Excluding garbage teams like the Jet's who we beat without running.
 
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GimmedaBall

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Just try to be dirty like Seattle & have 2 players smash KM to the ground with all their weight on him. In today's NFL that is sometimes a personal foul penalty. They wanna protect the star QB's so viewers can see the best ones play. I've seen it called many times where the defensive player allowed all their body weight to force the QB into the ground & a penalty was called. I was listening to the game on the radio during that play & didn't see it. If in fact both players put all their weight into KM while driving him into the ground, then a penalty should've been called?

D-players know full-well how to administer pain under the guise of 'I was just making a play' or 'I was just getting up from the pile.' O-players (especially OL) are supposed to be the enforcers who protect the skilled players, especially the QB. A DL who grinds into the QB with all his weight is on the 'To do' list for a little karma from the OL. That's karma spelled Ha-Ha-Ha. Recall the reaction when Dalton got totally creamed and got a concussion as a result of a late hit while sliding down. The Dallas O was called out for not defending their QB. Not a single O player got into the face of the D---Dalton might as well been alone on an island while sprawled out on the turf.

Part of that is the Dallas OL being a bunch of free agents, etc. who are not really formed into a unit willing to go to the mat for their QB. Wonder how our OL responds in the trenches---do we have at least one guy willing to stick up for KM when it counts?

As we get closer to qualifying for the playoffs, more D's are going to be willing to add that little extra whack on the QB. What's a 15-yard penalty when it knocks a key guy out of the game? That sprained shoulder for KM has a huge bullseye on it and is now subject to 'I was just getting up from the pile' attention. All the penalties in the world will not heal KM. It may be what moves a rival team into the playoffs when KM leaves the field.
 
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