What should the starting lineup be next year?

AZCrazy

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Some guys have shown up and balled. Some have sucked all the wind out of our happiness. Who stays and who goes? Today, Towers is fired and you're hired. What's your lineup next year? Assume the injured guys are back.


LF: Free Agent/Enciarte
CF: Pollack
RF: Peralta

1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Hill
SS: Gregorius/Eaton
3B: Free Agent/Lamb

C: Montero

P: Corbin/Hudson/Anderson/Miley/Collmenter

Keep solid players, platoon some young guys R/L
We need two guys - just two - to compete well (and to get the injured guys back in form)
 

Phrazbit

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Some guys have shown up and balled. Some have sucked all the wind out of our happiness. Who stays and who goes? Today, Towers is fired and you're hired. What's your lineup next year? Assume the injured guys are back.


LF: Free Agent/Enciarte
CF: Pollack
RF: Peralta

1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Hill
SS: Gregorius/Eaton
3B: Free Agent/Lamb

C: Montero

P: Corbin/Hudson/Anderson/Miley/Collmenter

Keep solid players, platoon some young guys R/L
We need two guys - just two - to compete well (and to get the injured guys back in form)

... looking at that list I am not reassured. IMO we need a lot more than two guys. There are question marks at 2b, LF, 3b and SS. Those positions are either unproven players, unreliable players or just nothing. Thats HALF the batting order right there. And thats with the assumption that Pollack and Peralta are the real deal, which isnt a sure thing either.

As for the pitching staff, thats an empty cupboard. Between the health and talent questions I cannot imagine the team going into spring and depending on more than 2 of those names.

I think there will be some serious roster turnover between now and the next time this team competes for anything of significance.
 

BC867

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Some guys have shown up and balled. Some have sucked all the wind out of our happiness. Who stays and who goes? Today, Towers is fired and you're hired. What's your lineup next year? Assume the injured guys are back.


LF: Free Agent/Enciarte
CF: Pollack
RF: Peralta

1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Hill
SS: Gregorius/Eaton
3B: Free Agent/Lamb

C: Montero

P: Corbin/Hudson/Anderson/Miley/Collmenter

Keep solid players, platoon some young guys R/L
We need two guys - just two - to compete well (and to get the injured guys back in form)
I can't believe you left out Owings (unless that is whom you meant by Eaton).

Owings will be our lead SS, not Gregorius. You'll see.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Trumbo will be here and playing left field next year. Just pencil it in.
 

BC867

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Trumbo will be here and playing left field next year. Just pencil it in.
Actually, if so, and if Hill is with us, and both can remain healthy, that is/should be a pretty good RBI group . . .

Peralta
Goldy
Montero
Trumbo
Hill

Each is capable of driving in at least 80 runs.

If our new Manager lets them. :D

If no new Manager, why have a thread about starting lineup? Each day will be a new beginning.
 

Chris_Sanders

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Actually, if so, and if Hill is with us, and both can remain healthy, that is/should be a pretty good RBI group . . .

Peralta
Goldy
Montero
Trumbo
Hill

Each is capable of driving in at least 80 runs.

If our new Manager lets them. :D

If no new Manager, why have a thread about starting lineup? Each day will be a new beginning.


Well...my thoughts for leading off Trumbo and hitting Peralta ninth is after the first set of at bats, when people could see what the pitcher was doing, Trumbo would have a good chance to drive in Peralta.

Then I would put Trumbo in motion while Pennington bats second. I know Ender is fast so put him at third that way he can beat out the throw to first while Trumbo goes to third.

What? No none of that worked which is why we lost. I figured it out though, I just need to switch Trumbo and Peralta and we will be fine.
 

sundevil04

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LF: Trumbo
CF: Pollack
RF: Free Agent

1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Hill / Owings
SS: Gregorius / Owings
3B: Lamb

C: Montero

P: Scherzer :)/Corbin/Hudson/Anderson/Miley
 

Matt L

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LF: Trumbo
CF: Pollack
RF: Free Agent

1B: Goldschmidt
2B: Hill / Owings
SS: Gregorius / Owings
3B: Lamb

C: Montero

P: Scherzer :)/Corbin/Hudson/Anderson/Miley

No Peralta in the starting lineup? Trade Trumbo out for Peralta and we have a team that maybe wins 80 games.
 

sundevil04

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No Peralta in the starting lineup? Trade Trumbo out for Peralta and we have a team that maybe wins 80 games.

Trumbo's batting .252 since being back from the injury and .235 for the season. While not impressive, that's the range you can expect from Tumbo throughout his career. If he'd had a 600AB season this year, he's on pace for 24HR's and 108 RBI, well above average power #'s.

Peralta in a 600 AB season this year is on pace for 18HR and 80RBI, batting .291 for the season, but we've seen that batting average drop 35 points in the past month. Which brings up my biggest question about him, can he keep it up?

That's the reason I'd have him as my 4th OF
 

Azlen

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I can't see putting Lamb at third right now. I would definitely look to upgrade there.
 

BC867

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Trumbo's batting .252 since being back from the injury and .235 for the season. While not impressive, that's the range you can expect from Tumbo throughout his career. If he'd had a 600AB season this year, he's on pace for 24HR's and 108 RBI, well above average power #'s.

Peralta in a 600 AB season this year is on pace for 18HR and 80RBI, batting .291 for the season, but we've seen that batting average drop 35 points in the past month. Which brings up my biggest question about him, can he keep it up?

That's the reason I'd have him as my 4th OF
Projecting Trumbo's numbers based upon 600 at-bats is inflating what we can expect. He has hit 600 AB's once in his career. As a sub-par fielder in LF once Goldie returns, I would look to trade him.

Peralta was expected to hit a rookie wall sooner or later. A left-handed line-drive hitting outfielder, I think he'll settle into a solid player. I wouldn't want to take away that chance (for him and the team) and drop him from the starting lineup.

Inciarte makes the OF interesting for next season. Since he has been playing CF full-time, he has been batting over .280 as our leadoff hitter and fielding well. But Pollock will be back next year. Inciarte would be our best bet for 4th outfielder.
 

Phrazbit

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I also don't think Trumbo's increased production and move to 1st base are coincidental. He is a horrid left fielder and he has to know it. I don't his lack of comfort in the field effects him at the plate.

So yes, even if his "600 ab" numbers would not be dreadful, he still needs to go because with a healthy Goldy we cant play Trumbo at a position he can succeed at.

But all that aside, I dont care that he is on pace for 24 hrs and over 100 rbi had he played the full season. His OBP is below .300, his OPS is below .700, it still makes for lousy player. Those are terrible stats for a guy who is also a trash fielder, and equally bad if coming from an everyday first baseman.
 

DWKB

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But all that aside, I dont care that he is on pace for 24 hrs and over 100 rbi had he played the full season. His OBP is below .300, his OPS is below .700, it still makes for lousy player. Those are terrible stats for a guy who is also a trash fielder, and equally bad if coming from an everyday first baseman.

11 years ago, John Henry hired Bill James and the Red Sox have won 3 WS in that span. We have fans (and possibly FO people) still extrapolating HR and RBI as offensive production measures. It amazes me, but it goes a long way to explain our mediocrity.
 

BC867

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11 years ago, John Henry hired Bill James and the Red Sox have won 3 WS in that span. We have fans (and possibly FO people) still extrapolating HR and RBI as offensive production measures. It amazes me, but it goes a long way to explain our mediocrity.
Regardless of the advances in statistical technology, please explain how the guy at the plate with the opportunity to RBI or LOB does not remain a key -- if not the key -- statistic.

At the end of the game, the only number on the scoreboard that matters is still "R".

There are many more innings where runner(s) get on base than runs are scored -- driven in.

Notice I did not say HR, I said RBI.
 

Phrazbit

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Regardless of the advances in statistical technology, please explain how the guy at the plate with the opportunity to RBI or LOB does not remain a key -- if not the key -- statistic.

At the end of the game, the only number on the scoreboard that matters is still "R".

There are many more innings where runner(s) get on base than runs are scored -- driven in.

Notice I did not say HR, I said RBI.

For example... last season Trumbo had 100 RBI, one might look at that and say "wow, he was great at driving runs in"... but he actually hit .222 with runners in scoring position. So no, he was actually pretty bad at it. His impressive RBI total was merely result of a wealth of opportunity created by the high on-base guys hitting in front of him, opportunities that he did not cash in at an acceptable rate.

For comparisons sake; we all lamented how poorly Montero hit last season in RBI chances, but he actually hit BETTER with runners on than Trumbo did (.236).

RBI is a very misleading stat. You get a guy who is a good hitter and put guys with good OBP batting in front of him, and the RBI totals will come naturally. Trumbo's RBI figures are merely a reflection of how good the rest of the Angels order was at getting on.
 
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BC867

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For example... last season Trumbo had 100 RBI, one might look at that and say "wow, he was great at driving runs in"... but he actually hit .222 with runners in scoring position. So no, he was actually pretty bad at it. His impressive RBI total was merely result of a wealth of opportunity created by the high on-base guys hitting in front of him, opportunities that he did not cash in at an acceptable rate.

For comparisons sake; we all lamented how poorly Montero hit last season in RBI chances, but he actually hit BETTER with runners on than Trumbo did (.236).

RBI is a very misleading stat. You get a guy who is a good hitter and put guys with good OBP batting in front of him, and the RBI totals will come naturally. Trumbo's RBI figures are merely a reflection of how good the rest of the Angels order was at getting on.
Your points are well taken. Does that mean that a percent, rather than total, of RBI's -- vs. left on base -- (1) with runners in scoring position and (2) with runners on base would be a better indicator of the value of, particularly, a middle of the order hitter?

Not how often he drives runners in, but rather what percent of the possibilities.

Imagine trying to recreate those stats.
 

DWKB

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Your points are well taken. Does that mean that a percent, rather than total, of RBI's -- vs. left on base -- (1) with runners in scoring position and (2) with runners on base would be a better indicator of the value of, particularly, a middle of the order hitter?

Not how often he drives runners in, but rather what percent of the possibilities.

Imagine trying to recreate those stats.

Yes, a percentage stat would be much better than a raw number. After all, we recognize that the guy with the higher avg wins the batting crown, not the one with the most hits. Baseball Prospectus attempts to define this with OBI% (Others Batted In).

As Phrazbit stated, RBI are an opportunity stat. Typically, we can assume that two guys with the same stat line and drastic RBI number differences is fully explained by their teammates hitting in front of them. There is situational performance fluctuation year-to-year, but that would wash out over a career.

So how did Mark Trumbo get his 2012/2013 RBI totals? Well in 2012 he hit behind Mike Trout (.399 OBP), Torii Hunter (.365 OBP), and Albert Pujols (.343 OBP), which gave him 159 PAs with RISP (27% of his total PAs) and 282 PA with ROB (45% of total PAs). When you come up almost half the time with a guy on, you're gonna knock them in if you can put wood on leather.
In 2013 Pujols had a bad year, but Mike Trout put up a .432(!) OBP. --Hack Wilson's 191 RBI season included two players ahead of him putting up OBP above .420-- which gave Trumbo 162 PA with RISP (29% of total PA) and 314 PA with ROB (51% of total PAs).
Trumbo had a MUCH more productive 2012 than 2013, but his RBI total was less. Well there were less total PAs in 2012, but also less RBI opportunity situations as well that caused this.

Given the facts that, outside of the steroid era, players peak at age 27, that Trumbo was arbitration eligible and set to make much more money, that the players ahead of him in the lineup heavily contributed to his perceived value (he did hit those HR on his own), and finally that he didn't have a defensively critical position to play, it makes perfect sense why LAA would shop him this past offseason. He's set to become more expensive, less productive, and his production is potentially over-valued by other clubs in the league (like our club). LAA has seen no drop off in team RS/G this year (4.70) compared to the last two Trumbo RBI years (4.73 2012, 4.52 2013) because his real contribution wasn't really that great and they were able to replace it.
 
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BC867

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Yes, a percentage stat would be much better than a raw number. After all, we recognize that the guy with the higher avg wins the batting crown, not the one with the most hits. Baseball Prospectus attempts to define this with OBI% (Others Batted In).
Thanks, DWKB. They do keep track of batting average with runners in scoring position. I wonder if the powers that be would ever consider adding OBI% with RISP, as a stat for the team and public to get accustomed to. They have certainly added a bunch of other new percentages over the past decade.

It would also help players whose manager has treated most of the season as the last day of Spring Training. Batting 2nd one day, then 5th the next, then not playing the next, then 7th the next, then not playing the next, then back to 2nd. But I won't name names. :) But it certainly gives credence for keeping your best OBI players in the heart of the order with a set batting order.
 

BC867

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If Kershaw can't pitch a no-hitter vs. this Minor League lineup Gibson is sending out tonight (Game 2 of the two-game series against the Dodgers on August 27th), he should be in the Minors.

Inciarte
Pennington
Hill
Trumbo
Marte
Pacheco
Gosewich
Gregorius

It is a mockery!

And they talked about the Suns possibly tanking last year. :)
 

don7031

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^ That is one hell of a scary line up to poor souls in the marketing department!

If the Dodgers had a catcher who could hit they would have had a superior player in every position in the starting line ups last night.
 

Phrazbit

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I have no idea who the Dodgers started at catcher but I cannot imagine he is measurably worse than 'Tuffy' as a hitter.
 
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