Pelicans @ Suns Tuesday Playoff game thread 4-26-2022 - Game 5

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Second Quarter:

One quarter down. IMO, multiple scenarios in the first quarter where that was the case (including McGee). A couple scenarios where we successfully got the turnover but had we not? IMO, they would have been out of position.

If you’re talking about the turnover you’re not talking about when the shot went up, so apparently we are still talking apples and oranges.

 

[sdscard4]

I think playing all 3 centers and 2 at a time was the best adjustment Monty made...I believe it's the reason we will win game 6 by atleast 8

 

[Covert Rain]

If you’re talking about the turnover you’re not talking about when the shot went up, so apparently we are still talking apples and oranges.

I am talking about scenarios (potential rebound opportunities) where the Suns big were either trapping or covering someone (by design) on the perimeter that put them at a disadvantage recovering to the paint and securing a rebound. Which again is a much different scenario than already being parked down there.

2nd Quarter complete. There was one where our big couldn't have gotten back, one that was debatable IMO. Now looking at the 3rd.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am talking about scenarios (potential rebound opportunities) where the Suns big were either trapping or covering someone (by design) on the perimeter that put them at a disadvantage recovering to the paint and securing a rebound. Which again is a much different scenario than already being parked down there.

2nd Quarter complete. There was one where our big couldn't have gotten back, one that was debatable IMO. Now looking at the 3rd.

Then I don’t understand how turnovers can even enter the discussion. There’s never a shot so there was never a rebound opportunity.

Understand, I fully recognize that if our bigs are outside the paint defending it lessens our rebounding prowess generally. What I’m exploring is whether it actually happens practically a lot.

My biggest takeaway last night was that I think our defense has been designed to blitz the high pick and then have the defense create enough delay in the offense to allow our bigs to recover back to the paint to rebound. Otherwise the defense doesn’t make sense to purposefully take our best (only?) rebounders in Ayton and mcgee out of the paint and rely on everyone else to rebound? That’s disastrous, and we’ve seen that Ayton and mcgee do grab the greatest amount and percentage of rebounds. Ayton’s mobility, in particular, allows us a lot of flexibility with this as what is observed was him deploying good enough defense up top to allow another defender to eventually take over and allow him to get back in the paint quickly enough to challenge for rebounds. It’s a pretty cerebral defense imo. Much like the myriad pick and role variations monty rolled out last year. Wasn’t willie our defensive assistant?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sure... no player is perfect and therefore always open for criticism. But the only player who has played consistently well this entire series - as in every game, is Ayton. Just seems odd to hyper-focus on him when the entire balance of the team has come up short.

The only reason there’s “hyper focus” is because there’s two or three people here who become indignant whenever the slightest criticism comes Ayton’s way and so it becomes a pages long argument.

That doesn’t happen with Payne/Crowder/Cam/Monty/Bridges criticism because everyone can admit the flaws each has shown here. That’s simply just not the case with Ayton.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

A single defensive rebound could result in a 6 point swing depending upon the circumstances (and yes off the top of my head I can recall two possessions where they scored 3’s on second chances). Depending on when that occurred in the game that 100% absolutely could’ve made a difference in one of the two losses.

Yep. Offensive rebounds and turnovers are complete momentum killers and have cost us chances to put games away in this series. They will need to be cleaned up going forward.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Lol. Jonas has only played the suns so far. And mostly (according to 82’s okay by play) against Ayton. That’s the whole point. We only know he’s crushing the suns. During the regular season he wasn’t crushing everyone else. We have no idea whether other teams/centers would better contain his rebounding in the playoffs other than the 74 games he played this season.

Do you believe that Jonas' production and DA's "lack" of production, are impacted by fellow teammates? So, if the Pels were to move on and play some other team, the make-up of that other team would impact Jonas' numbers?
In other words, Jonas is benefiting not only from his own physicality and innate rebounding ability, but, from his teammates who are doing a great job boxing out other Suns players and creating situations that are more favorable for Jonas to operate and produce rebounds. Whereas DA is essentially a one-man show, forced to fend off not only Jonas, but battle Nance, Jones, Hayes and whoever else...

 

[82CardsGrad]

The only reason there’s “hyper focus” is because there’s two or three people here who become indignant whenever the slightest criticism comes Ayton’s way and so it becomes a pages long argument.

That doesn’t happen with Payne/Crowder/Cam/Monty/Bridges criticism because everyone can admit the flaws each has shown here. That’s simply just not the case with Ayton.

"Slight?" I dunno... I don't think it's debatable that your bro has gone beyond "slight"...

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is becoming unreadable, so I am just going to throw this in. It is possible for Ayton to play extremely well, and at the same not do as well as he could grabbing rebounds against JV. More than one thing can be true at the same time.

It’s so weird that people can’t just see this.

 

[Covert Rain]

Then I don’t understand how turnovers can even enter the discussion. There’s never a shot so there was never a rebound opportunity.

Understand, I fully recognize that if our bigs are outside the paint defending it lessens our rebounding prowess generally. What I’m exploring is whether it actually happens practically a lot.

My biggest takeaway last night was that I think our defense has been designed to blitz the high pick and then have the defense create enough delay in the offense to allow our bigs to recover back to the paint to rebound. Otherwise the defense doesn’t make sense to purposefully take our best (only?) rebounders in Ayton and mcgee out of the paint and rely on everyone else to rebound? That’s disastrous, and we’ve seen that Ayton and mcgee do grab the greatest amount and percentage of rebounds. Ayton’s mobility, in particular, allows us a lot of flexibility with this as what is observed was him deploying good enough defense up top to allow another defender to eventually take over and allow him to get back in the paint quickly enough to challenge for rebounds. It’s a pretty cerebral defense imo. Much like the myriad pick and role variations monty rolled out last year. Wasn’t willie our defensive assistant?

I am talking about scenarios in which the Suns strategy put our bigs at a disadvantage because there would not have been an opportunity to recover and establish in the paint. That was by design. Some resulted in missed opportunities.

I just finished. IMO there were at least 5 other occurrences where I felt the defensive set put our bigs at a disadvantage on the second half. Ayton finished with 9 rebounds. Not sure off the top of my head what McGee or Biyombo did. However, IMO there were plenty of opportunities had they been in position to secure at least one more rebound in Ayton's case and more overall for our bigs. It could have given any of them on or two more then everybody likely isn't nitpicking his rebounding. There is another piece of this though...see below.

Three things I didn't see before? Biyombo is better at recovering than either Ayton or McGee. There were multiple like scenarios where Biyombo looked way out of position because he was trapping or covering a perimeter player and recovered. Second, when we played the Twin towers it seems Monty had a no trap strategy. I didn't see many traps at all when playing two bigs. Third? I counted at least a dozen times where our bigs instead of planting on the Left block, Right Block or at the free throw line were instead playing at the very edge of the free throw line circle which is unusual unless you plan on crowding the perimeter.

So, IMO, I think it's fair to say that our bigs mostly covered the paint in a traditional way but IMO there were plenty of plays and defensive position sets that made it more difficult.

TO BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying that Ayton didn't make mistakes and couldn't have grabbed a rebound or two more. 100% agree with that. I am just saying that the Suns game plan at times could have also made it more difficult on our bigs to secure more. The Suns were trying to close on the Pelicans shooters and trap. I think both can be true.

 

[SirStefan32]

It’s so weird that people can’t just see this.

Yeah, I really don't understand why it seems to be so difficult to grasp.

 

[Covert Rain]

The only reason there’s “hyper focus” is because there’s two or three people here who become indignant whenever the slightest criticism comes Ayton’s way and so it becomes a pages long argument.

That doesn’t happen with Payne/Crowder/Cam/Monty/Bridges criticism because everyone can admit the flaws each has shown here. That’s simply just not the case with Ayton.

To be fair, nobody on the Suns board is more scrutinized than Ayton. Can you show me one person who doesn't think Ayton has flaws and couldn't be more consistent? I don't recall anybody that is defending him taking that position. Many of us including me have pointed out his mistakes, called him inconsistent and gotten frustrated in game watching him play. It's just the overly critical are just over the top sometimes. If he isn't perfect....guaranteed this board will point it out.

 

[82CardsGrad]

To be fair, nobody on the Suns board is more scrutinized than Ayton. Can you show me one person who doesn't think Ayton has flaws and couldn't be more consistent? I don't recall anybody that is defending him taking that position. Many of us including me have pointed out his mistakes, called him inconsistent and gotten frustrated in game watching him play. It's just the overly critical are just over the top sometimes.

Correct. FWIW, I have consistently voiced my frustration with non-playoff Ayton. His inconsistency in the reg season is infuriating! But in the playoffs, totally different!

 

[somethingshesaid]

I think playing all 3 centers and 2 at a time was the best adjustment Monty made...I believe it's the reason we will win game 6 by atleast 8

Well, yeah, if he used two simultaneously, of course all three would end up playing.

 

[somethingshesaid]

I have to say I regret that there was no way to keep Jalen Smith. He would have been more productive than Biyombo offensively when able to play.

I understood the problem: because he was physically ill-suited to play power forward, he could never get minutes. But maybe they should have kept Smith anyway (rather than signing Biyombo) in case of situations like this.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Too bad Ish Wainwright won't possibly get a spin. The only way is if Booker had stayed hurt, and nobody wants that except the Pelicans.

And I hope Booker is actually near one hundred percent. The situation isn't desperate enough to bring back a mostly-recovered Booker.

 

[Ronin]

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[itlnsunsfan]

I am counting each time he leaks out from the paint to cover someone outside the paint. In another words, times he was NOT parked in the paint waiting for a rebound. Which was the basis for my point. His assignment on those plays was to cover someone outside the paint or trap someone outside the paint. In the post game they said the team wanted to make sure someone was rushing at especially Ingraham and McCollum verses giving them open looks.

There's only a rebound opportunity when a shot goes up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do you believe that Jonas' production and DA's "lack" of production, are impacted by fellow teammates? So, if the Pels were to move on and play some other team, the make-up of that other team would impact Jonas' numbers?
In other words, Jonas is benefiting not only from his own physicality and innate rebounding ability, but, from his teammates who are doing a great job boxing out other Suns players and creating situations that are more favorable for Jonas to operate and produce rebounds. Whereas DA is essentially a one-man show, forced to fend off not only Jonas, but battle Nance, Jones, Hayes and whoever else...

100%. Every player’s production is impacted by their own teammates’ and opponents’ teammates’ actions. I just don’t choose to ignore any individual player’s performance based upon those facts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

"Slight?" I dunno... I don't think it's debatable that your bro has gone beyond "slight"...

My criticism has been twofold:

1. Ayton being outrebounded by 5 per game. Not saying he should outrebound Jonas, just not such a wide margin. Literally my only criticism of ayton; and

2. Your contention that his defending the perimeter is preventing him from being capable of being a better rebounder. Not a criticism of Ayton at all.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am talking about scenarios in which the Suns strategy put our bigs at a disadvantage because there would not have been an opportunity to recover and establish in the paint. That was by design. Some resulted in missed opportunities.

I just finished. IMO there were at least 5 other occurrences where I felt the defensive set put our bigs at a disadvantage on the second half. Ayton finished with 9 rebounds. Not sure off the top of my head what McGee or Biyombo did. However, IMO there were plenty of opportunities had they been in position to secure at least one more rebound in Ayton's case and more overall for our bigs. It could have given any of them on or two more then everybody likely isn't nitpicking his rebounding. There is another piece of this though...see below.

Three things I didn't see before? Biyombo is better at recovering than either Ayton or McGee. There were multiple like scenarios where Biyombo looked way out of position because he was trapping or covering a perimeter player and recovered. Second, when we played the Twin towers it seems Monty had a no trap strategy. I didn't see many traps at all when playing two bigs. Third? I counted at least a dozen times where our bigs instead of planting on the Left block, Right Block or at the free throw line were instead playing at the very edge of the free throw line circle which is unusual unless you plan on crowding the perimeter.

So, IMO, I think it's fair to say that our bigs mostly covered the paint in a traditional way but IMO there were plenty of plays and defensive position sets that made it more difficult.

TO BE CLEAR. I am in no way saying that Ayton didn't make mistakes and couldn't have grabbed a rebound or two more. 100% agree with that. I am just saying that the Suns game plan at times could have also made it more difficult on our bigs to secure more. The Suns were trying to close on the Pelicans shooters and trap. I think both can be true.

Interesting. Seems you came out in the middle of my and 82/Finito positions. Appreciate your effort.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

To be fair, nobody on the Suns board is more scrutinized than Ayton. Can you show me one person who doesn't think Ayton has flaws and couldn't be more consistent? I don't recall anybody that is defending him taking that position. Many of us including me have pointed out his mistakes, called him inconsistent and gotten frustrated in game watching him play. It's just the overly critical are just over the top sometimes. If he isn't perfect....guaranteed this board will point it out.

This is true. But it was also true of Booker before Ayton. The players with the greatest expectations are going to attract the greatest scrutiny and conversation.

 

[AZ Native]

This is true. But it was also true of Booker before Ayton. The players with the greatest expectations are going to attract the greatest scrutiny and conversation.

Wow, you've been busy on these Suns' threads. Watch out @Ronin

 

[Covert Rain]

This is true. But it was also true of Booker before Ayton. The players with the greatest expectations are going to attract the greatest scrutiny and conversation.

Totally agree at one point it was Booker. Good call.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There's only a rebound opportunity when a shot goes up.

That was a foundational factor in my analysis.