NFC West: ready for the taking?

[vikesfan]

1. SF is a mess. They will be losing a number of good players this year. I think Walsh is no longer picking players for them, and he was responsible for their recent resurgence. Donahue is uqualified to be a GM. Erickson is a proven NFL loser. York is a cheap owner. They could have had DG they blew it. Team is on a downward spiral.

2. SEA is also losing some key players. Holmgren is overrated, DG owned him when they were both in the NFC Central/North. This team is not scary in the least.

3. STL has talent. They might lose a couple key players. Losing Lovie Smith hurts he was responsible for their recent resurgence. Marz's increasingly bizzare behaviour hurts this team. That neverending Warner Bulger thing. This team can be had.

 

[vikesfan]

"bump"

 

[Houdini]

I wouldn't underestimate Holmgren. Green would have more physical practices which helped the Vikings in the beginning of the season, but they would sometimes wear out by the end of the season. In 97 the Vikings started out 8-2, and went 1-5 the rest of the season. In 2000 the Vikings started out 7-0 and went 4-5 the rest of the season.

Holmgren on the other hand didn't have as much hitting and didn't practice in pads as much as Green did. Reggie White and Butler often praised Holmgren for trying to keep them fresh for the entire season, which is why Holmgrens teams usually finished stronger than they started. Even this year the Vikings faded down the strectch under Tice, who learned under Green.

Green often beat Holmgren, but part of that was timing too, especially in the TJ Rubley game years ago where Holmgren called for a QB sneak and Rubley didn't run the play that Holmgren called and threw an interception to give away the game. Needless to say Rubley was cut shortly there after.

 

[Brevity]

Originally posted by vikesfan
3. STL has talent. They might lose a couple key players. Losing Lovie Smith hurts he was responsible for their recent resurgence. Marz's increasingly bizzare behaviour hurts this team. That neverending Warner Bulger thing. This team can be had.

We also have intimate knowledge of the Rams new DC and his powerhouse defensive tactics.

 

[vikesfan]

Holmgren has proved nothing in SEA except he has no clue in talent evaluation. It looks like it was one fluke year that got the Pack their Ring - thank White for signing with them and thank Favre for being high on Jack Daniels and Vicodin. As he admitted in Equire those 2 factors were the key to his 3 great years.

DG owned Holmgren, and his record is even better cause Holmgren got lucky in a couple games. DG's record is much better then Holmgren's overall.

I can't remember what happened in 97 but in 00 key injuries caught up with the Vikes at the end of that year. Whatever DG did in practice was more successful then whatever Holmgren did by the results.

Tice has nothing to do with the DG system - unlike Billick and Dungy and Willingham he made it a point to change everything DG did. The man is a dimwit. The record last year was illusory - we faced some teams in disarray early on like ATL and SF so our record appeared better early then it really was.

P S Among the most overrated and overhyped people in NFL History are Wolf, Holmgren, and Favre. They won 1 SB just like geniuses and all time greats like Ditka and Dilfer and Hostetler etc.

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by vikesfan

P S Among the most overrated and overhyped people in NFL History are Wolf, Holmgren, and Favre. They won 1 SB just like geniuses and all time greats like Ditka and Dilfer and Hostetler etc.

Check out which team has the best overall record since 92 and since free agency started.

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Re: Re: NFC West: ready for the taking?

Originally posted by Brevity
We also have intimate knowledge of the Rams new DC and his powerhouse defensive tactics.

Good one.

Some Ram fans are demanding that they fire Martz....one guy who roots for the hometown baseball Cards wants LaRussa to go to....lately he's been calling Martz...LaMartz.

 

[vikesfan]

No one in the NFL had a better record then the Vikes under DG. 9 straight years under DG (starting in 92 the first FA year) he never had 1 losing season. No coach had a better winning percentage or won more games. They made the playoffs 8 out of 9 years. He won 2 coach of the year awards and 4 divisions. Compare his draft picks to Wolf's and there is no comparison. Plus DG dominated the Pack they managed a couple lucky wins. It finally took the death of Kory Stringer in 2001 to make the team have a losing season as well as serious injuries to key players. So that year doesn't count.

By then Holmgren had left long ago and Wolf was no longer there. And Favre was playing at a mediocre level. The only reason the Pack has won the last 2 years is the incompetence and cheapness of Tice and Red, respectively. We have given the division to them. We don't have a GM or front office or legitimate coaches etc that is hardly fair competition for the Pack. By the way if ATL had not been moronic enough to give Favre away and then SEA to give Ahman away the Pack would have been even worse off.

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by vikesfan
...By the way if ATL had not been moronic enough to give Favre away and then SEA to give Ahman away the Pack would have been even worse off.

You forgot to mention how stupid Philly was for not resigning Reggie White. If the Vikings would have signed Reggie, the Vikings might have won a Super Bowl or two. In 98 when the Vikings went 15-1, Reggie was named the defensive player of the year. He might have been the difference to put you guys over the top. Holmgren was one of the guys to convince Reggie to play for him. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't underestimate Holmgren.

 

[AZCardsWin]

Big Red fans,
I agree that every team in the NFC West (other then the Cardinals) will have lost impact coaches and/or players before the season starts. The Cardinals have the best draft positions of the entire division. The Cardinals are in the best shape going into free agency of any team in the NFC West (actually NFL- haha).
2004 is shaping up to be a very special year for the Big Red!

Go Cards/ America!
Tim

 

[vikesfan]

Originally posted by Houdini
You forgot to mention how stupid Philly was for not resigning Reggie White. If the Vikings would have signed Reggie, the Vikings might have won a Super Bowl or two. In 98 when the Vikings went 15-1, Reggie was named the defensive player of the year. He might have been the difference to put you guys over the top. Holmgren was one of the guys to convince Reggie to play for him. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't underestimate Holmgren.

If I recall correctly White was determined to go to GB. I don't think there was too much convincing to do. The Eagles and Vikes etc had no chance to get him.

The thing that killed the Vikes SB chances was DG wanted to draft Sapp but was not allowed to do so by management because Sapp smoked some pot in college. ARGH! Imagine Sapp and Randle side by side for those years... the only question is how many SBs would we have won. DG then decide to take over management so that would never happen to him again.

Holmgren is an okay coach I don't underestimate him I just don't overestimate him either. They guy is not great he is slightly better then mediocre.

 

[Renz]

Originally posted by vikesfan
If I recall correctly White was determined to go to GB. I don't think there was too much convincing to do. The Eagles and Vikes etc had no chance to get him.

Didn't God tell Reggie to go to Green Bay?

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by vikesfan
If I recall correctly White was determined to go to GB.

Not really. At that time White wanted to play for a Super Bowl contender to get a ring. The Packers were only a 9-7 team at the time and far from a Super Bowl. The 49ers and Dallas were the only true Super Bowl contenders in those years, and the 49ers were the odds on favorite to land White. Everyone, including White himself thought he was going to San Fran. Holmgren and Wolf somehow convinced White that the Packers were going to be a true Super Bowl contender.

White also admired Favre because White dislocated Favre's shoulder in a game but Favre kept playing anyway to upset the Eagles. Funny thing is, I thought it was a mistake at the time to overpay White who was getting up in years. I especially thought so because the Packers were more than a player or two a way from being a Super Bowl threat at the time to pay so much for one player.

I never realized how much White's leadership meant though, as he convinced other players around the league to come to Green Bay, and he constantly held team meetings to keep potential trouble makers on the team in check. No one crossed Reggie. White would have been the perfect fit for the Vikings in my opinion to help keep guys like Carter and Moss in line a little better. I always felt the Vikings had the talent, but needed a strong leader like White to keep them all together during any bumps in the road. We'll never know though.

 

[vikesfan]

Well you and I remember it different. As you said in your post White came to GB cause of Favre. That was what I remembered.

Carter and Moss did not need anyone straightening them up. The Vikes had plenty of leaders. We could have used White's talent to be honest I don't know if we even had the cap to get him - maybe we did, but like I say what I remember is him saying he wanted to go to GB cause of Favre and the tradition and that was his first choice. Even without White if our FG K makes an easy kick (his only miss all year) we are in the SB. Likewise if Moss Culpepper and R Smith were not hurt in 2000 and the Giants knew what our offensive players were we would have probably been in another SB year. Moss and Carter didn't need anyone straightening them up.

I agree with you White was the reason that GB won their SB no doubt about that he was that team's leader all the way.

 

[SECTION 11]

Admit it. You're both Cardinal fans.
Come to the dark side...

 

[Houdini]

Originally posted by vikesfan
We could have used White's talent to be honest I don't know if we even had the cap to get him - maybe we did,

There wasn't a salary cap yet when White was a free agent. He was free to sign with anyone that was willing to pay and convince him to sign with them. I don't think we'll ever see as big of an impact signing in free agency like that in the NFL again for a long time, because now they have the franchise and transition tag to help teams keep star players. That wasn't around then either.

White was impressed with Favre, but Favre was still an unknown back then. In my opinion Holmgren more than anyone else was able to convince Reggie to play for him. Either that or God did tell Reggie to play there, and it had nothing to do with Holmgren.

 

[vikesfan]

Section 11 the Dark Side is being a Vikes fan. I have endured far more pain in cheering the Vikes then any other sports fan in the world except maybe Red Sox and Cubs fans. That last game vs the Cards was typical Vikes football. Not merely heartbreaking but soulcrushing.
I suggest you come to Dark Side and become a Vikes fan - if you want to know what real pain is. Especially 75 and 98.

Houdini when did White sign? I thought it was in the cap era (post 92). Maybe Holmgren did talk him into joining the Pack but that still doesn't make him a good coach - maybe he should try college ball recruiting is a big thing there.

Some big time FAs that made a difference to teams winning have been signed despite tagging.
Johnson was huge for TB last year and Rice solidified that teams defense. OAK had Garner Gannon Rice all contribute to their SB run. This year CAR got Delholme and S Davis. You can still get big time FAs you just need to be smart about it. Tagging does remove some top guys (this year McAllister and Bailey might get tagged). But a decent amount still get through. If you want a SB contender you need to get those guys that fall through.

 

[Houdini]

Reggie signed in 1993. The salary cap was agreed upon in 93, and wasn't implemented until 1994.

http://www.casinoarticles.com/pub/sports_nfl_football_salary_cap.html

 

[Brevity]

Originally posted by vikesfan
I have endured far more pain in cheering the Vikes then any other sports fan in the world except maybe Red Sox and Cubs fans.

You have the nerve to post this on a football Cardinals message board?

Surely, you jest. (Sorry for calling you "Shirley")

 

[Brevity]

Re: Re: Re: NFC West: ready for the taking?

Originally posted by BuckeyeCardinal
Good one.

Some Ram fans are demanding that they fire Martz....one guy who roots for the hometown baseball Cards wants LaRussa to go to....lately he's been calling Martz...LaMartz.

I would be upset also. The Cards defensive schemes were awful last year. Although I do not know who should shoulder the responsiblity for this more...Mac or Marmie.

 

[phillycard]

Stranger things have happened! I'm slowly but surely seeing the Rams and 49ers come back to our level. It would certainly be about time. We haven't beaten the Rams yet, and we finally got our first W against SF this year. Seattle could be good again next year, but I think that we're gaining just by hiring DG. I'm really looking forward to next year.

 

[vikesfan]

So what is more painful to have a team that is out of it year after year with some good years every once in blue moon. Like say the Cards or Cleveland Indians. Or to be a team like the Vikes or Red Sox and be in it almost every year but only to have it end in some heartbreaking fashion. I guess it depends on your perspective.

1969 a key fumble vs KC in the SB our QB gets hurt...

1970 1971 playoff losses with a great defensive team but no QB

1972 Tark comes back and injuries hit and we have a lousy season

1973 key fumble vs MIA in the SB

1974 key fumble vs PIT in the SB and Tark's arm is hurt

1975 maybe the best Vikes team ever (along with 98) and we have the DAL playoff game won and they call the Vikes on pushing the WR out of bounds on a catch (sound familiar) DAL gets another chance and the DAL player inteferes with the MIN DB and a DAL player holds/takesdown Eller and no flags 2 penalties and they are not called - the greatest Vikes team ever doesnt even go to the SB

1976 a key fumble vs OAK in the SB

1977 Tark breaks his leg

1987 Nelson drops the ball vs WASH for a trip to the SB

1998 the best Viking team ever (along with 75 team) 15-1 (easily could have been 16-0 but the refs let TB intefere with our WR for our 1 regular season loss... our FG sets an NFL record he does not miss one kick all year long!!!
A key fumble at halftime lets ATL back in the game. (So many key fumbles)... then with the game on the line our FG kicker misses an easy kick that sends us to the SB his only miss all year!!!

2000 A key fumble on the first kickoff we get in the game... our top QB RB WR all hurt and the NYG know our plays due to a physical tell DC has... and the game that cost us homefield that year a loss @GB where the holder asked for a dry ball and the refs wouldnt give him one despite the rules saying they have to! Our FG K then misses and then in OT their WR falls to the ground and our DB knocks the ball away it flies right into the WR on his ass on the ground and sticks to him he gets up and runs it in

2002 6-0 start on the way to the playoffs ... final game all we had to do was beat the worst team in the nfl and... we have a 2 score lead with 2 minutes left ... and well you saw what happened.


Being a Cards fan imo might be heartbreaking but being a Vikes fan is soulcrushing.

 

[Brevity]

I hear what you're saying vikesfan, but I would, at least, like to have the opportunity to be able to talk about how if this play or that play would have been diffrenent we could have won a particular playoff game or even had a chance to go the SB.