MJ vs LeBron

[Lefty]

I have always thought MJ was the greatest player I have ever saw, but what LeBron has done puts him right up there.

My question, if LeBron and MJ switched, LeBron played for the Bulls in the 80's & 90's and MJ played on the teams that LeBron played on, who would of been more successful?

 

[GatorAZ]

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That guy ^^

 

[elindholm]

To me, a 6-3 edge in titles is too much to overcome. But if James gets his fourth, that might be enough to pull even, and if he gets his fifth, that's probably enough to overtake Jordan.

 

[Phrazbit]

That's such a tough question... I wanna say Jordan, without question, but LeBron never had Pippen, he didn't play with another legit stud until he bailed for Miami and he also never had Phil Jackson.

As we talked about the other day, the key difference was with Jordan you legit expected the amazing, to the point that when it happened the reaction was "obviously, it's Jordan", but LeBron has somehow turned that corner the last few years. His performances over the last 3 playoffs are absolutely absurd.

If he carries this rubbish Cavs team to a title, or even a truly competitive finals, then... the conversation gets a lot more serious.

 

[GatorAZ]

That's such a tough question... I wanna say Jordan, without question, but LeBron never had Pippen, he didn't play with another legit stud until he bailed for Miami and he also never had Phil Jackson.

As we talked about the other day, the key difference was with Jordan you legit expected the amazing, to the point that when it happened the reaction was "obviously, it's Jordan", but LeBron has somehow turned that corner the last few years. His performances over the last 3 playoffs are absolutely absurd.

If he carries this rubbish Cavs team to a title, or even a truly competitive finals, then... the conversation gets a lot more serious.

There are arguments for both. Jordan played on pretty weak teams early on at a time when the Eastern Conference had two dynasties. During his second comeback the East was a lot weaker.

Jordan set the tone in his first Finals vs LA. He made it a point to out duel Magic and averaged over 11 assists per game in the series. The craziest MJ stat is he was 12-6 in road finals games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wow. He’s getting to that point where he’s not excited or surprised he hits the playoff buzzer beater.

We are all witnesses... as dumb as that is to say, it’s true. This guy has reached peak freaking ridiculous.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

If you put Jordan in an era where you can't hand check him...wow

 

[Cheesebeef]

There are arguments for both. Jordan played on pretty weak teams early on at a time when the Eastern Conference had two dynasties. During his second comeback the East was a lot weaker.

Jordan set the tone in his first Finals vs LA. He made it a point to out duel Magic and averaged over 11 assists per game in the series. The craziest MJ stat is he was 12-6 in road finals games.

Here’s the thing with MJ. He just flat ENDED the Pistons. That was a 2 time defending champion who he sent packing in an UGLY 4 game sweep. Then kicked the crap out of the Lakers. Then proceeded to beat a REALLY good Portland team in the Finals and the next year beat the BEST Riley Knicks team without home court and then beat what I believe to be the best single season to not win the title... our beloved 92-3 Suns.

And then he retired, came back, won more games than anyone ever, and beat the snot out of loaded Magic/Sonic teams.

And then won the battle of the oldies the next two years against the Jazz who just outlasted every other team from the late 80’s to early 90’s.

That run was ridiculously impressive.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The weird thing about a LeBron is his greatest feat might have been taking that first GS team to six games without Love and Kyrie for 5 games, two of them he won singlehandedly.

But beating the Spurs in 7 for title number 2 was pretty epic. That was a legit Battle Of The Titans that he came away the winner of.

Here’s the bottom line... if Bird used to be possibly talked about the greaTest of all time while winning three titles with those LOADED teams, I.T makes me feel comfortable to say LeBron is top three or two at this point.

 

[GatorAZ]

Here’s the thing with MJ. He just flat ENDED the Pistons. That was a 2 time defending champion who he sent packing in an UGLY 4 game sweep. Then kicked the crap out of the Lakers. Then proceeded to beat a REALLY good Portland team in the Finals and the next year beat the BEST Riley Knicks team without home court and then beat what I believe to be the best single season to not win the title... our beloved 92-3 Suns.

And then he retired, came back, won more games than anyone ever, and beat the snot out of loaded Magic/Sonic teams.

And then won the battle of the oldies the next two years against the Jazz who just outlasted every other team from the late 80’s to early 90’s.

That run was ridiculously impressive.

I think the Sonics were the best team the Bulls beat. They won 64 games and swept the defending champion Rockets. They had four guys avaergaing 15+ ppg. They could defend and shoot plus Kemp wasn’t smoking crack yet.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

To me, a 6-3 edge in titles is too much to overcome. But if James gets his fourth, that might be enough to pull even, and if he gets his fifth, that's probably enough to overtake Jordan.

Hahahhahaa NO Way

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the Sonics were the best team the Bulls beat. They won 64 games and swept the defending champion Rockets. They had four guys avaergaing 15+ ppg. They could defend and shoot plus Kemp wasn’t smoking crack yet.

Yeah, but that Rocket team was on it’s last legs. And that Sonics team was very very good... but it wasn’t as good as legit MVP Charles/KJ/Dumas/Majerle/Ainge/Ceballos/West/Thin-ish Oliver Miller/Last Legs Chambers.

That was a Championship level team who took the Bulls within 3.9 seconds of a Game 7 in Phoenix. That Seattle team got boat-raced to an ugly 0-3 deficit, won a couple meaningless games and then lost the ugliest NBA Finals deciding game ever, something like 87-75. They never had a shot in that series. We did... and choked it away.

 

[GatorAZ]

Yeah, but that Rocket team was on it’s last legs. And that Sonics team was very very good... but it wasn’t as good as legit MVP Charles/KJ/Dumas/Majerle/Ainge/Ceballos/West/Thin-ish Oliver Miller/Last Legs Chambers.

That was a Championship level team who took the Bulls within 3.9 seconds of a Game 7 in Phoenix. That Seattle team got boat-raced to an ugly 0-3 deficit, won a couple meaningless games and then lost the ugliest NBA Finals deciding game ever, something like 87-75. They never had a shot in that series. We did... and choked it away.

The 96’ Bulls were much better than the 93’ Bulls. The 96’ team of course won 72 games and had the #1 ranked offense and defense. Lost only three playoff games (two to Seattle). Seattle wasn’t Seattle yet in 93’ but nearly made the Finals if it weren’t for the Suns shooting 64 free throws in game 7 at home.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The 96’ Bulls were much better than the 93’ Bulls. The 96’ team of course won 72 games and had the #1 ranked offense and defense. Lost only three playoff games (two to Seattle). Seattle wasn’t Seattle yet in 93’ but nearly made the Finals if it weren’t for the Suns shooting 64 free throws in game 7 at home.

Disagree. I think the league was watered down by that point by the new expansion teams and the fact that the Euros hadn’t really started to impact the game to bring more talented guys to a diluted talent pool.

The Bulls ran roughshod over a really soft league, IMO. I mean, those Jazz teams had to wait until EVERYONE better than them got old or AIDS before they made the Finals as AARP members.

But pre-retirement, Jordan and Pip were the biggest freaks of nature ever to consistently play together and Grant was a solid 15/10 guy. And the outrageous nature of prime prime Jordan/Pippen just can’t be overstated. More so than threepeat two. IMO, always.

 

[GatorAZ]

Disagree. I think the league was watered down by that point by the new expansion teams and the fact that the Euros hadn’t really started to impact the game to bring more talented guys to a diluted talent pool.

The Bulls ran roughshod over a really soft league, IMO. I mean, those Jazz teams had to wait until EVERYONE better than them got old or AIDS before they made the Finals as AARP members.

But pre-retirement, Jordan and Pip were the biggest freaks of nature ever to consistently play together and Grant was a solid 15/10 guy. And the outrageous nature of prime prime Jordan/Pippen just can’t be overstated. More so than threepeat two. IMO, always.

Jordan was still the near unanimous MVP and Pip was first team all pro in 96’. I’ll take that version of the duo if it comes with a fully invested Rodman.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jordan was still the near unanimous MVP and Pip was first team all pro in 96’. I’ll take that version of the duo if it comes with a fully invested Rodman.

I know. But the only reason Jordan didn’t get MVP Barkley’s year was because people were tired of giving it to him and Pippen was an absolute peak athletic beast in 1993.

Either way, it’s a solid argument and I can see both sides of the coin. I just remember being so RIDICULOUSLY underwhelmed by the entire 1996 season. Shaq had one foot out the Orlando door and everyone knew it, the Hot Rod trade destroyed the Suns, the Rockets luck had run out and Seattle with Hersey Hawkins just wasn’t the scariest athletically team with a young healthy Kendall Gill on the wing and Ricky Pierce was dead and buried.

The best Seattle team was that club who had the biggest choke ever against the Nuggets. That team that played the Bulls weren’t close to them, IMO.

 

[Carolinacacti]

Bunch of old people on this message board and I'm one of them. But I still voted for Lebron

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bunch of old people on this message board and I'm one of them. But I still voted for Lebron

I’m not there yet, but he’s making a really good argument right now even tougher.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I will admit this... the 92-93 season broke my heart unlike any... other... EVER.

Except maybe 1995. Jesus Christ we were better than that luck ass Houston team, i don’t care what anyone says.

So, in historical terms, there is a possibility I overvalueate those teams.

 

[HeHasRosen]

Lebron. Hes played much better competition with not even close to as good supporting cast. Its MJ so its the mystic that gets ppl. Fact is Lebron is a better overall player as much as ppl will hate on that opinion

 

[Mainstreet]

If you put Jordan in an era where you can't hand check him...wow

IMO, Jordon clearly wins the argument when this is factored into the equation.

 

[elindholm]

If you put Jordan in an era where you can't hand check him...wow

Do you really think there's less holding and bumping now than there used to be? I see multiple fouls on nearly every play. The written rule isn't relevant if the officials don't enforce it.

 

[GatorAZ]

Lebron. Hes played much better competition with not even close to as good supporting cast. Its MJ so its the mystic that gets ppl. Fact is Lebron is a better overall player as much as ppl will hate on that opinion

Pippen was an all time great but he wasn’t a guy like Wade or Kyrie that could take over a Finals series offensively. In that Dallas series that Lebron melted down in Wade was fantastic. Kyrie averaged 27/4/4 in the finals and outplayed Steph. Pip wasn’t that guy.

Also MJ’s teams early on were trash like Lebron’s now so it evens out. I’ll give you coaching.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Pippen was an all time great but he wasn’t a guy like Wade or Kyrie that could take over a Finals series offensively. In that Dallas series that Lebron melted down in Wade was fantastic. Kyrie in game 7 was incredible all game. Pip wasn’t that guy.

Also MJ’s teams early on were trash like Lebron’s now so it evens out. I’ll give you coaching.

Are you saying Jordan’s first threepeat teams were trash or the teams pre-titles?

 

[GatorAZ]

Are you saying Jordan’s first threepeat teams were trash or the teams pre-titles?

When they were getting bounced early on. The first 3 years they made the playoffs with a losing record.