MJ said Graves was hoping .....

[jmr667]

Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by AZCB34
In all the time working with Fergy, I gotta believe he could have a opretty firm grasp on tendencies in the personnel side of the business.

Man, when I think of Fergy being his mentor I am actually impressed with Graves. His first offseason he's already done as good or better than Fergy did in his best year with the Cards.
Having Fergy be your teacher in the GM business has GOT to be considered a handicap.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by jmr667
Man, when I think of Fergy being his mentor I am actually impressed with Graves. His first offseason he's already done as good or better than Fergy did in his best year with the Cards.
Having Fergy be your teacher in the GM business has GOT to be considered a handicap.

Fergy gets a bad rap IMO around here. If Graves has one thing going for him (and against him) is clarity in the front office. Fergy is a very good football guy but got swallowed into the front office here, he made some bad decisions, the Bidwills had too many layers and thus his true ability was lost...IMO.

Now: MASSIVE SPECULATION ALERT

Has anyone given any thought to the fact Graves moved behind the scenes to get his job and oust Fergy, who is a better personnel guy IMO? I mean, Graves did have the ear of the owner directly and I am not so sure Fergu did as much.

End: MASSIVE SPECULATION ALERT

 

[Cardiac]

Re: Re: Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

Originally posted by AZCB34
I don't know Cardiac. Graves didn't have to project a team having 3 injured players at this position because he had already lost a starter at this position several weeks ago...and then the decision was made to start Wakefield. Yup, it was decided Fred Wakefield is better than Marco Coleman. While I am not a big Coleman fan, there is no logic to this decision for the real reason it was made.

Guaranteed contract.

That is the reason. I am not saying Coleman would have signed here, but Graves made a decision to postpone actively pursuing him until after the first game. That kind of thinking hurts the good things he did this offseason. With $12-$14 million in cap space (does anyone know the exact amount right now?), what difference does it make to guarantee a one year contract? Even if you overpay a bit on it (say $1 million instead of league minimum)?

Why not take a chance to improve the team this year...even if it is a one year deal? Give the players and fans some hope. My biggest worry at this point is the players who are due to be FA will be tentative to resign because the Cards are sitting on all this money and doing nothing to improve the team and they will leave. Then the work done has been set back again.

I think the point is that even the Eagles who are starved for DE's waited until that last injury to make a move on Coleman. Burgess goes down on Friday and the Eagles get Coleman signed ASAP. Good move on their part? Time will tell but they had NO OTHER options.

If we pick up Coleman who do you want to cut? Maybe you want a band aide for one year but I don't. It's too early to give up on DJ.

Wakefield is not the pass rushing answer at LDE but did anyone notice what this team did against the Lions running game. Credit goes to both the D-Line and LB's. I watched the first half of the game again and the LB's were very active against the run. Where they need to improve is on blitzes and dropping into coverage. Wakefield also looked solid against the run.

 

[RedStorm]

Re: Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by AZCB34
Fergy gets a bad rap IMO around here. If Graves has one thing going for him (and against him) is clarity in the front office. Fergy is a very good football guy but got swallowed into the front office here, he made some bad decisions, the Bidwills had too many layers and thus his true ability was lost...IMO.

Now: MASSIVE SPECULATION ALERT

Has anyone given any thought to the fact Graves moved behind the scenes to get his job and oust Fergy, who is a better personnel guy IMO? I mean, Graves did have the ear of the owner directly and I am not so sure Fergu did as much.

End: MASSIVE SPECULATION ALERT

I agree with you that Fergie got a bad rap. He had a good reputation before he came here and is getting praise from Seattle. Fergie "failed" here because he did not have the same mindset as Bidwill. He had a "building a winner" mindset not a "save money for my stadium" mindset. He made too many waves for Bidwill.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

Originally posted by Cardiac
I think the point is that even the Eagles who are starved for DE's waited until that last injury to make a move on Coleman. Burgess goes down on Friday and the Eagles get Coleman signed ASAP. Good move on their part? Time will tell but they had NO OTHER options.

If we pick up Coleman who do you want to cut? Maybe you want a band aide for one year but I don't. It's too early to give up on DJ.

Wakefield is not the pass rushing answer at LDE but did anyone notice what this team did against the Lions running game. Credit goes to both the D-Line and LB's. I watched the first half of the game again and the LB's were very active against the run. Where they need to improve is on blitzes and dropping into coverage. Wakefield also looked solid against the run.

Cut Scobey. He would land back on the practice squad IMO so you end up no worse off in the long run. I cannot see another team scooping him up right now. I wasn't overly impressed with him in preseason...he was bad I just wasn't overly impressed.

I guess they way I look at it, The Cards had no other options either. If a "band aide" leads to one more win, then with this team it was worth the effort. Coleman wasn't going to make the team any worse...only better of even.

The rush defense was nice to see last week but let's also paint a picture of a LIons team who had a RB in camp for one week and a third stringer. Credit is given to the Cards IMO but I want to see them stop Alexander/Faulk etc before I get too excited. But, you are right. That is shaping up to be a decent part of the defense. But the Cards need a pass rush and basically the ship has sailed. If no rush materializes, then no rush can be had at this point. IMO, you have to strike while the iron is hot.

 

[jmr667]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by RedStorm
I agree with you that Fergie got a bad rap. He had a good reputation before he came here and is getting praise from Seattle. Fergie "failed" here because he did not have the same mindset as Bidwill. He had a "building a winner" mindset not a "save money for my stadium" mindset. He made too many waves for Bidwill.

Who picked Thomas Jones, Tommy Knight, Michael Stone, etc? And where were they when Calvin Pace and Q were being picked?
This is the best draft class the Cards had in years. How did that happen if they got rid of their GM with all the ability?

"Getting praise from Seattle"? What do you expect people in an organization to say publicly about the guy the boss just hired? Of course they are going to say good things about him.

 

[RedStorm]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by jmr667
Who picked Thomas Jones, Tommy Knight, Michael Stone, etc? And where were they when Calvin Pace and Q were being picked?
This is the best draft class the Cards had in years. How did that happen if they got rid of their GM with all the ability?

"Getting praise from Seattle"? What do you expect people in an organization to say publicly about the guy the boss just hired? Of course they are going to say good things about him.

So I guess you are voting for Pace and Q to be co-rookies of the year and having them go to the pro bowl?

 

[jmr667]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by RedStorm
So I guess you are voting for Pace and Q to be co-rookies of the year and having them go to the pro bowl?

Its all black and white with some folks. Guys are either busts or pro-bowlers right?
I'm just saying these guys are a lot better than Jones and Knight. There is a looooonnngggg ways between those two and pro-bowl rookie of the year. Somewhere in there is "solid contributor, well worth the money and draft slot". These guys look closer to that than some of the previous early round draft picks, see? Which makes them better selections which means somehow the Cards did something right the first year Fergie was gone.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by jmr667
Its all black and white with some folks. Guys are either busts or pro-bowlers right?
I'm just saying these guys are a lot better than Jones and Knight. There is a looooonnngggg ways between those two and pro-bowl rookie of the year. Somewhere in there is "solid contributor, well worth the money and draft slot". These guys look closer to that than some of the previous early round draft picks, see? Which makes them better selections which means somehow the Cards did something right the first year Fergie was gone.

Fergy wasn't a GM though for a couple years. He was basically a glorified scout. He was pushed out of power while still with the tam. That isn't speculation, that has been widely reported.

Fergy made mistakes. Graves made mistakes. All GMs make mistakes. My point is that Fergy gets a bad rap around here. The draft is an inexact science of the tallest order. Tell me how Fergy could have predicted Knights injuries or Jones' troubles here or Wadsworths injuries. He couldn't. You roll the dice and sometimes it comes up good other times bad.

 

[RedStorm]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: We Start Out 20% Behind

Originally posted by jmr667
Its all black and white with some folks. Guys are either busts or pro-bowlers right?
I'm just saying these guys are a lot better than Jones and Knight. There is a looooonnngggg ways between those two and pro-bowl rookie of the year. Somewhere in there is "solid contributor, well worth the money and draft slot". These guys look closer to that than some of the previous early round draft picks, see? Which makes them better selections which means somehow the Cards did something right the first year Fergie was gone.

Well, I hope they are rookies of the year and make the pro bowl. However, I have made up my mind this year that until I see results in the form of wins then I will not stop harping. I am tired of giving this team the benefit of the doubt. I just raised my standard to expect wins instead of little baby steps.

Anything less than wins is failure. I know it sounds black and white but I am tired of seeing grey every year.

Their is nothing clear about the color grey.

 

[Cardiac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

Originally posted by AZCB34
Cut Scobey. He would land back on the practice squad IMO so you end up no worse off in the long run. I cannot see another team scooping him up right now. I wasn't overly impressed with him in preseason...he was bad I just wasn't overly impressed.

I guess they way I look at it, The Cards had no other options either. If a "band aide" leads to one more win, then with this team it was worth the effort. Coleman wasn't going to make the team any worse...only better of even.

The rush defense was nice to see last week but let's also paint a picture of a LIons team who had a RB in camp for one week and a third stringer. Credit is given to the Cards IMO but I want to see them stop Alexander/Faulk etc before I get too excited. But, you are right. That is shaping up to be a decent part of the defense. But the Cards need a pass rush and basically the ship has sailed. If no rush materializes, then no rush can be had at this point. IMO, you have to strike while the iron is hot.

Cutting Scobey or Young would have been a solid option. Let's wait and see how Coleman does on the Iggles. Talk about a team that knows how to get after the QB it's them. Since they are so good at this and already had lost Hughes and several DE's to injury don't you think they would have picked Coleman up sooner unless they were desperate?

DJ and Wakefield have been given a chance to prove themselves this year. If they don't they will be gone. Coleman may last another year in the NFL then he will be gone. That's what I mean by band aide. I don't care if we win one more game this year if it turns out DJ just needed time to adjust to the NFL. This team is dying for DE talent and Coleman just isn't the long term (arguable short term) answer for this team. DJ or even Wakefield may prove far more valuable in the upcoming seasons.

With King coming up injured at this point then yes having Coleman would have helped. You just can't forcast all of the injuries and guess right all the time.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by azcardsfan1616
You dont agree? He has made the pro bowl already. He just needs to get his head together. Cant doubt the guys raw talent and ability, no one can.

Ifs and buts. Boston defines the phrase "one year wonder".

I repeat noone would have given us crap for him.

Would you give San Diego a 1st round pick for this guy?

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

Originally posted by Cardiac
Cutting Scobey or Young would have been a solid option. Let's wait and see how Coleman does on the Iggles. Talk about a team that knows how to get after the QB it's them. Since they are so good at this and already had lost Hughes and several DE's to injury don't you think they would have picked Coleman up sooner unless they were desperate?

DJ and Wakefield have been given a chance to prove themselves this year. If they don't they will be gone. Coleman may last another year in the NFL then he will be gone. That's what I mean by band aide. I don't care if we win one more game this year if it turns out DJ just needed time to adjust to the NFL. This team is dying for DE talent and Coleman just isn't the long term (arguable short term) answer for this team. DJ or even Wakefield may prove far more valuable in the upcoming seasons.

With King coming up injured at this point then yes having Coleman would have helped. You just can't forcast all of the injuries and guess right all the time.

Philly was desperate. I do agree there and that caused them to move. Ihave said previously, it isn't so much Coleman the player but more what he represents to me...a chance to improve the team. This wa one of those times. Coleman could have been a one year guy...but he also could have said he wants to play next year and liked AZ so he stays for another year or 2. Who knows? Graves has not made moves when I think he should have to improve the team. I think he chose to stand pat hoping something better would come along and each time, he was left with nothing in his hands.

The wild card in all this of course is the grotesque amount of money available under the cap. He could have spent half the amount and improved this team and still had money to play with or pocket. I guess maybe this is what disturbs me the most.

I don't think adding Coleman would have stifled Wakefield or DJs development a whole lot. It would have impacted their playing time but I still am uneasy with Wakefield being asked to be some pass rusher when he hasn't shown that at this point. DJ, I am not expecting alot out of him this year due to him not showing alot in preseason. Again, he wasn't horrible but nothing special either.

I guess the way I viewed it was cut and 4th string RB and get a 1st string DE in return. I'd do that deal.

 

[Cardiac]

Originally posted by KingofCards
Ifs and buts. Boston defines the phrase "one year wonder".

I repeat noone would have given us crap for him.

Would you give San Diego a 1st round pick for this guy?

Or, would you give up a 1st rd pick for Coles or Price when you coulda had Boston without giving up compensation. Two of the teams that desperately needed WR's chose to give up 1st rd picks instead of going after Boston. I want to see the slide rule that calculates how this means the Cards could have gotten compensation for DB.

The article in ESPN Mag provided info many of us weren't aware of. Many of us had our suspicions but didn't know for sure or to this degree. GM's around the league already knew this stuff and weren't going to mess with DB, especailly for a 1st or 2nd rd draft pick.

So now Mr. I have a boo boo on my heal isn't playing this week. As far as I'm concerned it serves the Chargers right. Maybe if DB didn't weigh 250+ lbs his heel wouldn't hurt so much. Shotzinhimer sp is suppose to be a no nonsense coach and yet he makes decisions like this far too often.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Cardiac
Or, would you give up a 1st rd pick for Coles or Price when you coulda had Boston without giving up compensation. Two of the teams that desperately needed WR's chose to give up 1st rd picks instead of going after Boston. I want to see the slide rule that calculates how this means the Cards could have gotten compensation for DB.

The article in ESPN Mag provided info many of us weren't aware of. Many of us had our suspicions but didn't know for sure or to this degree. GM's around the league already knew this stuff and weren't going to mess with DB, especailly for a 1st or 2nd rd draft pick.

So now Mr. I have a boo boo on my heal isn't playing this week. As far as I'm concerned it serves the Chargers right. Maybe if DB didn't weigh 250+ lbs his heel wouldn't hurt so much. Shotzinhimer sp is suppose to be a no nonsense coach and yet he makes decisions like this far too often.

I think the real issue isn't that they could have gotten something it is that they didn't even try. They could have franchised him, tried to work something out and if nothing happened remove the tag and everybody is right back where we are now.

It was the lack of effort to take a chance that is what rubs me wrong. If you don't really try, how do you know?

The ESPN article would have had no impact on this effort since it came out just a few weeks ago. It is obvious the Chargers didn't know or didn't care. I still think the Cards could have gotten something. Even a 2nd rounder would have been nice since it was apparent the Cards weren't going to keep him around.

 

[Sandan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rollercoaster .. Say What .. WOO HOO HOO

Originally posted by Cardiac
With King coming up injured at this point then yes having Coleman would have helped. You just can't forcast all of the injuries and guess right all the time.

Of course you can, I see lots of people posting "I told you so"

 

[Sandan]

AZCB34, you are saying that that Coleman would have been better than Kenny King.

Maybe, maybe not but it seems that the team thought not. Of coirse now with our injuries it looks like it would have been a good idea.

20/20 hindsight.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by AZCB34
The ESPN article would have had no impact on this effort since it came out just a few weeks ago.

I seriously doubt that ESPN was the first to know

 

[Northern Card]

AZCB 34....

It's not exactly as though the team has to search this board to know that they can FRANCHISE and later DROP TAG. They had their reasons not too.

Reasons unknown to you or me...

You have absolutely no idea as to the efforts made or not made, in the Boston case... so why suggest there wasn't an effort?

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by nidan
AZCB34, you are saying that that Coleman would have been better than Kenny King.

Maybe, maybe not but it seems that the team thought not. Of coirse now with our injuries it looks like it would have been a good idea.

20/20 hindsight.

Coleman is better than King and Wakefield and Johnson IMO. No hindsight. I was saying they would improve the team by picking him up when he was released. I also said I didn't really care if they did too. I am not a Coleman fan but that doesn't mean he isn't better than all our other DEs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by nidan
AZCB34, you are saying that that Coleman would have been better than Kenny King.

Maybe, maybe not but it seems that the team thought not. Of coirse now with our injuries it looks like it would have been a good idea.

20/20 hindsight.

No Nidan - it appeared the team was cheap and din't want to sign anyone to a guaranteed contract - are you gonna tell us that if this team is as bad as we have all predicted after the season is over that that was hindsight too? And if the team thought their 5th round pick was better right now than Marco Coleman than we have more serious issues to worry about. W3e could have cut Michael Young and Fred Wakefield for all I care to get Marco Coleman because the simple truth is that Fred Wakefield should not be a piece of our future and right now is just taking up space waiting to be mauled by opposing offensive lineman.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by KingofCards
We would have ended up getting stuck with his loser ass.

Noone would have given us crap for the guy.

You have been saying this for months and I think you are wrong. Sorry.

Though if you show me where a franchise tag has ever been recinded, I might change my mind.

Jeremiah Trotter - last year from the Eagles to the redskins. They could have at least tried KOC - that's the whole problem.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Northern Card
AZCB 34....

It's not exactly as though the team has to search this board to know that they can FRANCHISE and later DROP TAG. They had their reasons not too.

Reasons unknown to you or me...

You have absolutely no idea as to the efforts made or not made, in the Boston case... so why suggest there wasn't an effort?

Do you honestly think if the effort was being made people wouldn't have known about it? Things are being reported and RARELY does something happen that takes everyone by surprise anymore. Usually things are being reported days before it is official.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Jeremiah Trotter - last year from the Eagles to the redskins. They could have at least tried KOC - that's the whole problem.

Yeah. I found that.

Damn.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by KingofCards
Though if you show me where a franchise tag has ever been recinded, I might change my mind.

Why would it matter if a tag has ever been rescinded before? The issue is the Cards had that option and I personally believe they should have made the effort.

I truly believe they could have gotten something. No biggie if you disagree.