Kevin Towers Is or Is Not A Huge Disappointment

[Mulli]

"In May 2013, Baseball America's Matt Eddy said Bush "may be the biggest bust at any position in draft history"

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8760032/ex-mlb-top-pick-matt-bush-sentenced-four-years-dui


Towers admitted he should have fought for more money to sign the other prospects in the draft that wanted more signing money.

 

[JS22]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8760032/ex-mlb-top-pick-matt-bush-sentenced-four-years-dui


Towers admitted he should have fought for more money to sign the other prospects in the draft that wanted more signing money.

His #1 prospect was Stephen Drew. Still would have been a crappy pick.

 

[Phrazbit]

"In May 2013, Baseball America's Matt Eddy said Bush "may be the biggest bust at any position in draft history"

Yeah, I remember they tried converting him to a pitcher because he could not hit or field. I dont think he ever made it out of A ball.

And didnt he get in trouble for some reason within days of being drafted?

 

[JS22]

His Wiki is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Bush_(baseball)

Currently in prison, too.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Maybe more wins than loses would be nice? They were a losing team and the NL West was the weakest division in baseball for a looong time during that stretch... and the Padres were a major part of that.

Having the 4th best record and the 4th most playoff success in a 5 team division, that was in low regard, does not impress me.

Just curious... What other GM's over the past 10-12 years would you claim as having better records of success versus Towers? I'm sure there are some, however, I wonder how many of those would be GM's for franchises that consistently maintain a mid-way point at best on the team payroll ranking??

 

[Phrazbit]

Just curious... What other GM's over the past 10-12 years would you claim as having better records of success versus Towers? I'm sure there are some, however, I wonder how many of those would be GM's for franchises that consistently maintain a mid-way point at best on the team payroll ranking??

How about the ones who do not have losing records?

Honestly... the bar of "success" is being set pretty low when winning is not a priority.

 

[82CardsGrad]

How about the ones who do not have losing records?

Honestly... the bar of "success" is being set pretty low when winning is not a priority.

Seriously... name a few.

 

[Dback Jon]

How about the ones who do not have losing records?

Honestly... the bar of "success" is being set pretty low when winning is not a priority.

In baseball, you have a huge divide between the haves and have nots.


You are thinking like a Yankee fan...

 

[82CardsGrad]

You are thinking like a Yankee fan...

Hey now!! I resemble that remark!!

 

[Phrazbit]

The entire NL West was playing with similar payroll parameters as the Padres were, and they were the 4th best team in that division. Ironically the highest spending team, the Dodgers, was consistently the worst. Success in baseball goes beyond payroll. Having a strong minor league system is a much bigger advantage than cash to blow. The Padres minor league system was always a punchline, and it held them back as teams with similar payrolls, Rockies, Giants and Dbacks, all had more success over the exact same time frame.

 

[JS22]

The entire NL West was playing with similar payroll parameters as the Padres were, and they were the 4th best team in that division. Ironically the highest spending team, the Dodgers, was consistently the worst. Success in baseball goes beyond payroll. Having a strong minor league system is a much bigger advantage than cash to blow. The Padres minor league system was always a punchline, and it held them back as teams with similar payrolls, Rockies, Giants and Dbacks, all had more success over the exact same time frame.

And Towers doesn't seem to mind trading minor league talent.

Hopefully he doesn't gut the Dbacks before he is inevitably let go.

 

[Phrazbit]

And Towers doesn't seem to mind trading minor league talent.

Hopefully he doesn't gut the Dbacks before he is inevitably let go.

Probably the best position player to go through their system during his entire tenure was Jason Bay... and he flips him for a 32 year old Brian Giles, and Bay within a year was the better player and at the same position... and for one tenth of the price tag, and he did this in the middle of a 98 loss season. Just frivolous and stupid stuff.

 

[82CardsGrad]

The entire NL West was playing with similar payroll parameters as the Padres were, and they were the 4th best team in that division. Ironically the highest spending team, the Dodgers, was consistently the worst. Success in baseball goes beyond payroll. Having a strong minor league system is a much bigger advantage than cash to blow. The Padres minor league system was always a punchline, and it held them back as teams with similar payrolls, Rockies, Giants and Dbacks, all had more success over the exact same time frame.

I looked back to '98 and since then, the Padres were at, or next to last in our division in team payroll far more than any other western division team. It's not even close...
And yes, every now and then lower payroll teams make a run (heck, the Pods themselves did that in '98, '05 and '06). Teams like the Pirates, Royals, A's and Rays are doing it now...
However, if you look at just the NL west since 1998, the team that won the division was more often the #1 or #2 team in salary in the division. And of course, in the case of the Dodgers, consistently in the top 5/6 for all of baseball...
Since 1998, the balance of the NL West has by far spent more in salary than the Padres. Yes - even the Rockies and Dbacks. And aside from the miracle season of 2001 for the Dbacks, you would be hard-pressed to say that they have been that much more successful than the Pods were...

Anyway - I agree that $$ doesn't always buy wins... However, sustained spending typically leads to greater success.
And of course, farm systems are essential and a great measurement of a GM. Which is why I believe it's far too early to judge Towers...

 

[Phrazbit]

lol, yeah, besides that little thing... winning the world series, the Dbacks have been down there with the Padres... only they havnt. Even subtracting the WS title season the Dbacks still have more winning seasons than the Padres do over the same span Nine in total, 8 without the WS title. (Pads have only had 6 winning seasons since Dbacks entered the league). One of San Diego's actual division wins was essentially by default, as the snuck into the playoffs with a 82-80 record. The Padres finished last or 2nd to last in the division 8 times during Towers reign, and the NL west was no power house.

The Padres real problem was their complete ineptitude at developing from within. Their farm system was a barren waste land during Towers tenure that was reduced to hyping such low par players as Sean Burroughs and Khalil Greene. Its not too early to judge Towers farm system in San Diego, which despite frequently drafting high, was among the worst in all of baseball.

By the time its safe to judge his farm system work in Arizona, I fear he will have turned the top 5 loaded system he took over... into one of the most devoid in the league. I dont care about sitting patiently for a guy who is off to a terrible start here, following his spotty run and terrible finish in San Diego.

 

[82CardsGrad]

lol, yeah, besides that little thing... winning the world series, the Dbacks have been down there with the Padres... only they havnt. Even subtracting the WS title season the Dbacks still have more winning seasons than the Padres do over the same span Nine in total, 8 without the WS title. (Pads have only had 6 winning seasons since Dbacks entered the league). One of San Diego's actual division wins was essentially by default, as the snuck into the playoffs with a 82-80 record. The Padres finished last or 2nd to last in the division 8 times during Towers reign, and the NL west was no power house.

The Padres real problem was their complete ineptitude at developing from within. Their farm system was a barren waste land during Towers tenure that was reduced to hyping such low par players as Sean Burroughs and Khalil Greene. Its not too early to judge Towers farm system in San Diego, which despite frequently drafting high, was among the worst in all of baseball.

By the time its safe to judge his farm system work in Arizona, I fear he will have turned the top 5 loaded system he took over... into one of the most devoid in the league. I dont care about sitting patiently for a guy who is off to a terrible start here, following his spotty run and terrible finish in San Diego.

Since 1998, AZ has spent $879 million in salary, to $674 million for the Pods, a delta of $205 million, or $15.7 million more per season.
In the year the Dbacks won the series, they spent $81 million to $38 million for the Pods. In 2000, the Dbacks spent $81 million to $55 million for the Pods. And in 2002, the Dbacks spent $103 million to $41 million for the Pods...

For the record - and as you will note in all of my posts - I am not at all claiming Towers is a great GM. My point is and has been, it's just too early to judge him here in AZ. Another year or two and we'll have much better measurement points to reference. But not now...

 

[Phrazbit]

Since 1998, AZ has spent $879 million in salary, to $674 million for the Pods, a delta of $205 million, or $15.7 million more per season.
In the year the Dbacks won the series, they spent $81 million to $38 million for the Pods. In 2000, the Dbacks spent $81 million to $55 million for the Pods. And in 2002, the Dbacks spent $103 million to $41 million for the Pods...

For the record - and as you will note in all of my posts - I am not at all claiming Towers is a great GM. My point is and has been, it's just too early to judge him here in AZ. Another year or two and we'll have much better measurement points to reference. But not now...

Great, good for us. 15 mil... I know how Towers spends that kind of dough and I dont feel the Padres were a Brandon McCarthy and Cody Ross away from being a monster those years.

You want to use it as an excuse for the LACK of success... wonderful, thats your prerogative, but it does not make him successful. And it does nothing to explain why the Padres were so terrible at developing from within. They were a LOSING team in a BAD division.

I for one hope the Diamondbacks aspire for more than that.

 

[Phrazbit]

And I do agree... its too early to judge...

Because when you're making a habit of trading away highly touted players under 25 and getting peanuts in return that kind of damage takes a while to tabulate.

 

[Brian]

I was never a fan of his signing and was never a fan of his job performance.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Great, good for us. 15 mil... I know how Towers spends that kind of dough and I dont feel the Padres were a Brandon McCarthy and Cody Ross away from being a monster those years.

You want to use it as an excuse for the LACK of success... wonderful, thats your prerogative, but it does not make him successful. And it does nothing to explain why the Padres were so terrible at developing from within. They were a LOSING team in a BAD division.

I for one hope the Diamondbacks aspire for more than that.

Seriously... do you think me, or any other fan wants anything less from the Dbacks?? For the record, I'm a lifelong, born and bred Yankee fan. I have seen historical success up close and personal. I know what it looks like and what it feels like.
You haven't offered up any other names of GM's that you would highlight as "successful", so, either you don't know of any, or, perhaps you see that for teams that dwell in the salary range of the Pods and Dbacks, most of the GM's have put up similar records of success/failure...

 

[Phrazbit]

Seriously... do you think me, or any other fan wants anything less from the Dbacks?? For the record, I'm a lifelong, born and bred Yankee fan. I have seen historical success up close and personal. I know what it looks like and what it feels like.
You haven't offered up any other names of GM's that you would highlight as "successful", so, either you don't know of any, or, perhaps you see that for teams that dwell in the salary range of the Pods and Dbacks, most of the GM's have put up similar records of success/failure...

Because I think its absurd to have to name of GMs that are more successful that a guy who teams dont even crack .500! I dont want to be rude but I think its a dumb question. Should someone who detracts Mark Reynolds be expected to name off everyone better than him?

Towers results on their own merit and not measured against anyone else, are poor. He ran a team that had infrequent success and frequent struggles, when he finally got canned the organization was a ruin.

You want to blame salary for his problems, fine, but that would be a reason WHY he is bad, its an excuse, it does nothing to say he is worth keeping. And meanwhile there are several other reasons why his teams have a history of struggles.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Because I think its absurd to have to name of GMs that are more successful that a guy who teams dont even crack .500! I dont want to be rude but I think its a dumb question. Should someone who detracts Mark Reynolds be expected to name off everyone better than him?

Towers results on their own merit and not measured against anyone else, are poor. He ran a team that had infrequent success and frequent struggles, when he finally got canned the organization was a ruin.

You want to blame salary for his problems, fine, but that would be a reason WHY he is bad, its an excuse, it does nothing to say he is worth keeping. And meanwhile there are several other reasons why his teams have a history of struggles.

I would think you could name off a few GM's that put up significantly better win-loss records... Maybe not...

 

[Phrazbit]

I would think you could name off a few GM's that put up significantly better win-loss records... Maybe not...

lol, "significantly better"? The man has a losing record. We are not trying to split hairs between great men. So I will simply say this. I would put every GM who has ever won a World Series or whos teams have complied a winning record... its a long list, I wont bother to look it up, but should you chose to and find isolated names that you think are debatable, you let me know.

That is how I will address that stupid question.

And it says a lot for how weak Towers resume is, that rather than defend him on his own merits, all we are hearing is excuses for his failures and arbitrary "name of the 400 guys better than him" questions.

 

[Mulli]

I would think you could name off a few GM's that put up significantly better win-loss records... Maybe not...

Brian Sabean...

 

[DWKB]

Walt Jocketty, Dan Duqette, Billy Beane, Frank Wren, John Mozeliak, Mike Rizzo, Jon Daniels, and Andrew Friedman are all better active GMs than Towers.

See the thing is though, the assumption that a good GM is an active or former GM is false. Look at Rizzo, look at Friedman.

Phrazbit is right in that this isn't a comparison issue, it's a performance one. Many people estimated that Towers built a incomplete team that was a .500 ball club. Turns out this team is an incomplete team with a .500 record. The excuses are just distractions. Towers track record is getting a no-pressure gig in SD for a long time and building up a name without doing much.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Brian Sabean...

Yep... with a lot more $$...