I don't understand why people look at win lost record in the finals to grade the best players in the world

CardsSunsDbacks

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How is my math messed up? I was just stating some people would actually think less of a player that went to the finals 5 times and only won three, vs a player who only went three times but won three because that player would be undefeated in the finals. I think I was accurate on Montana. Played 16 seasons, went to the superbowl 4 times and won all 4 thus did not make it 12 times.

I probably would go with MJ as the best player but it would be fun to see if Lebron would have done better with the Bulls team. I found even the Miami teams inconsistent.
Either way it is a bad comparison of the MJ vs LeBron situation as MJ still has two more titles than LeBron even though he had less finals appearances.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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How is my math messed up? I was just stating some people would actually think less of a player that went to the finals 5 times and only won three, vs a player who only went three times but won three because that player would be undefeated in the finals. I think I was accurate on Montana. Played 16 seasons, went to the superbowl 4 times and won all 4 thus did not make it 12 times.

I probably would go with MJ as the best player but it would be fun to see if Lebron would have done better with the Bulls team. I found even the Miami teams inconsistent.
I was messed up by your using “4-4” which is usually used to mean 4 wins and 4 losses verses “4/4.” After I typed it I was like, “montana didn’t go to the Super Bowl 8 times, what’s he talking about?!?”
 
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cardsunsfan

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Ok, I understand now. Also, I didn't want to really turn this into a Jordan, Lebron debate. Maybe Lebron's new record popped in my mind. I think this thought comes to mind even more so with the NFL. I really think a lot of people think losing in the championship round hurts your legacy more than losing in earlier rounds which is just a little odd to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people felt going three for three is better than going three for five. I think for Lebron, losing to Dallas sealed his legacy, if they had finished that one off the comparison to Jordan would be much closer. It is difficult to compare across eras though... Maybe Lebron would have toughened up more if he had played in Jordan's era but in this era he didn't have to? He's got a bigger build than Jordan. Maybe Jordan wouldn't be a great three point shooter in this era which would have hurt him? As for the NFL, my favorite sport, sometimes it seems like the team with the least injuries wins, It feels like more and more luck has a lot to do with who succeeds and who doesn't which kind of sucks.
 
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cardsunsfan

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Sorry for not being more succinct. I can kind of see why some people on here have been complaining this board is starting to attack each other too much. When even the moderators are derogatory towards posters trying to ask a question. I remember when people were welcomed on this site. I've had a few similar names on here and probably posted a couple thousand times. When I tried to get password resets after taking a year or so off from posting it didn't send me one. Still though, I still read through the posts and I do think things have changed a little for the worse. Maybe its the post covid attitude or something...
 

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Sorry for not being more succinct. I can kind of see why some people on here have been complaining this board is starting to attack each other too much. When even the moderators are derogatory towards posters trying to ask a question. I remember when people were welcomed on this site. I've had a few similar names on here and probably posted a couple thousand times. When I tried to get password resets after taking a year or so off from posting it didn't send me one. Still though, I still read through the posts and I do think things have changed a little for the worse. Maybe its the post covid attitude or something...
I’m pretty sure sanders was joking.
 

AzStevenCal

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RIP Kobe... but the dude doesn't belong in the conversation. He wasn't even the best player of his generation. Duncan over Kobe, easily.
Agreed, Duncan is an easy call but although it's closer you could also justify putting Garnett above Bryant. And then you have another easy call in Shaq who is basically the same "generation" given that he's only 4 years older than Tim and Kevin who were just 2 years older than Kobe.
 

Phrazbit

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Agreed, Duncan is an easy call but although it's closer you could also justify putting Garnett above Bryant. And then you have another easy call in Shaq who is basically the same "generation" given that he's only 4 years older than Tim and Kevin who were just 2 years older than Kobe.

Agreed, in Duncan, I went for the obvious one, one that, I think anyone who isn't obsessed with ppg, would have to agree with.

I'd easily put Shaq above Kobe, I think Garnett has an argument too.

Kobe was a great player, a first ballot HOF player, but I think he was a huge beneficiary of circumstance. Move him out of LA and, IMO, he's somewhere between Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady. All great players, no doubt, but Kobe had the benefit of being on the Lakers... and yet, later in his career, no star players were trying to join the Lakers... largely because of Kobe. He was a terrible teammate.
 

Lorenzo

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I don’t agree about Duncan being over Kobe or shaq over Kobe. But I think Duncan is a fair comparison because Duncan and Kobe led their teams respectively over a long period of time. Both Duncan and Kobe won titles with hall of fame players who helped carry the load when they weren't necessarily in their prime. For Kobe it was Shaq when he was younger, for Duncan it was K.Leonard when he was older.

I think shaq was a worse teammate than Kobe going back to his days in Orlando. Shaq never maximized his own ability like Kobe did. Kobe matured when he got older and took care of his body. shaq did not. For me that alone makes Kobe a better leader and teammate.

KG should never be in that discussion with Duncan or Kobe, he left Minnesota. for better or worse, he couldn’t lead them to a title and never really had a signature playoff win when he was the face of a franchise.
 
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Lorenzo

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Ok, I understand now. Also, I didn't want to really turn this into a Jordan, Lebron debate. Maybe Lebron's new record popped in my mind. I think this thought comes to mind even more so with the NFL. I really think a lot of people think losing in the championship round hurts your legacy more than losing in earlier rounds which is just a little odd to me. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people felt going three for three is better than going three for five. I think for Lebron, losing to Dallas sealed his legacy, if they had finished that one off the comparison to Jordan would be much closer. It is difficult to compare across eras though... Maybe Lebron would have toughened up more if he had played in Jordan's era but in this era he didn't have to? He's got a bigger build than Jordan. Maybe Jordan wouldn't be a great three point shooter in this era which would have hurt him? As for the NFL, my favorite sport, sometimes it seems like the team with the least injuries wins, It feels like more and more luck has a lot to do with who succeeds and who doesn't which kind of sucks.
It’s interesting that players shouldn’t be judged on finals appearances or wins. But that’s the way it is, especially in basketball more than other sports. You mentioned lebron losing to Dallas. Well dirk’s reputation completely changed because of that series, when without that championship he is still one of the best clutch shooters in nba history and added to the game for big men that can handle and shoot off the dribble away from the paint. But it just goes to show what winning a championship, especially with one team, does for someone’s legacy.
 
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AzStevenCal

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I don’t agree about Duncan being over Kobe or shaq over Kobe. But I think Duncan is a fair comparison because Duncan and Kobe led their teams respectively over a long period of time. Both Duncan and Kobe won titles with hall of fame players who helped carry the load when they weren't necessarily in their prime. For Kobe it was Shaq when he was younger, for Duncan it was K.Leonard when he was older.

I think shaq was a worse teammate than Kobe going back to his days in Orlando. Shaq never maximized his own ability like Kobe did. Kobe matured when he got older and took care of his body. shaq did not. For me that alone makes Kobe a better leader and teammate.

KG should never be in that discussion with Duncan or Kobe, he left Minnesota. for better or worse, he couldn’t lead them to a title and never really had a signature playoff win when he was the face of a franchise.
KG shouldn't be in the conversation with Duncan but he's a far better player than Kobe IMO. Kobe is one of the more overrated players I've seen in my 60+ years of following the sport. Extremely talented? Absolutely. But his ego overmatched his talent. Basketball has always been a team game and for most of his career, he was probably the best example of the player free agents avoided and teammates looked to escape from.

And KG didn't leave Minnesota, he was traded (and not at his request). He played 11 seasons there, mostly with little to no talent around him. KG was still a kid when they drafted him. They were horrible before they drafted him and for the next two seasons. After that, they were one of the better teams in the league until the year they traded him whereupon they again became one of the worst teams in the league every year for the next decade.

To me, that post Shaq/pre Lebron era is defined by Duncan but KG and Dirk aren't too far behind him. Kobe is a full step below that pair. And it's worth mentioning that if Dirk had been traded away after 11 years, Dallas doesn't win that championship two years later.
 
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Lorenzo

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KG shouldn't be in the conversation with Duncan but he's a far better player than Kobe IMO. Kobe is one of the more overrated players I've seen in my 60+ years of following the sport. Extremely talented? Absolutely. But his ego overmatched his talent. Basketball has always been a team game and for most of his career, he was probably the best example of the player free agents avoided and teammates looked to escape from.

And KG didn't leave Minnesota, he was traded (and not at his request). He played 11 seasons there, mostly with little to no talent around him. KG was still a kid when they drafted him. They were horrible before they drafted him and for the next two seasons. After that, they were one of the better teams in the league until the year they traded him whereupon they again became one of the worst teams in the league every year for the next decade.

To me, that post Shaq/pre Lebron era is defined by Duncan but KG and Dirk aren't too far behind him. Kobe is a full step below that pair. And it's worth mentioning that if Dirk had been traded away after 11 years, Dallas doesn't win that championship two years later.
I respect your opinion and I was never a fan of Kobe because of some of the ego things that you mentioned. let’s not forget KG has an ego as well. As does shaq, the man who motioned a ring to the Phoenix fans when he got there. Shaq clearly overvalued himself by that point.

Even if you include the ego into the equation, KG being far better than Kobe is not something I agree with.

I did not know that KG had been traded against his will, I thought he wanted to leave Minnesota. that makes me think more highly of KG than previously. T-wolves did have Chauncey Billups on his team. Billups often bested Steve nash head to head in those days when nash was still in Dallas.

I’m glad dirk never left Dallas, but aside from a 3-4 year period early on when Don Nelson was there and a 2 year period around the time they won it all, I thought Cuban didn’t do well managing the team and dirk shouldered most of the load.
 
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Finito

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Agreed, in Duncan, I went for the obvious one, one that, I think anyone who isn't obsessed with ppg, would have to agree with.

I'd easily put Shaq above Kobe, I think Garnett has an argument too.

Kobe was a great player, a first ballot HOF player, but I think he was a huge beneficiary of circumstance. Move him out of LA and, IMO, he's somewhere between Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady. All great players, no doubt, but Kobe had the benefit of being on the Lakers... and yet, later in his career, no star players were trying to join the Lakers... largely because of Kobe. He was a terrible teammate.

Oh I disagree I think Kobe is on a much higher level than McGrady and Iverson. Neither of those guys have the all around game Kobe had.

I don’t think KG has any argument over Kobe. He did a lot of nothing his first 10 years in the league. I wouldn’t even put KG above Dirk that makes him at best the number 3 guy at PF in his era. That Dirk championship run separates him IMO.
 

95pro

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Oh I disagree I think Kobe is on a much higher level than McGrady and Iverson. Neither of those guys have the all around game Kobe had.

I don’t think KG has any argument over Kobe. He did a lot of nothing his first 10 years in the league. I wouldn’t even put KG above Dirk that makes him at best the number 3 guy at PF in his era. That Dirk championship run separates him IMO.

Pre injury TMac was better than Kobe at the same time period they played.
 

AzStevenCal

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I respect your opinion and I was never a fan of Kobe because of some of the ego things that you mentioned. let’s not forget KG has an ego as well. As does shaq, the man who motioned a ring to the Phoenix fans when he got there. Shaq clearly overvalued himself by that point.

Even if you include the ego into the equation, KG being far better than Kobe is not something I agree with.

I did not know that KG had been traded against his will, I thought he wanted to leave Minnesota. that makes me think more highly of KG than previously. T-wolves did have Chauncey Billups on his team. Billups often bested Steve nash head to head in those days when nash was still in Dallas.

I’m glad dirk never left Dallas, but aside from a 3-4 year period early on when Don Nelson was there and a 2 year period around the time they won it all, I thought Cuban didn’t do well managing the team and dirk shouldered most of the load.
Every good player has an ego, Kobe had an ego problem. Kobe was very driven but unfortunately his need to be the hero was almost as strong as his will to win.

Billups became a very good PG but he was considered a disappointment his first 5 years, the last two of those years were with Minnesota. In fact he only started about half the time until he went to Detroit where his game blossomed. And if you look through the rest of that roster, maybe you'll change your mind on just how good KG was back then. He was good enough to make them a dangerous regular season team but IMO no one could have made them dangerous in the postseason.

Talent-wise, Kobe is probably top 10 all time. But all told, I wouldn't even put him in the top 20. I've never sat down and made a list so I'm not exactly sure where I'd put him but I suspect around 30th overall. All of this obviously is JMO.
 

Finito

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Every good player has an ego, Kobe had an ego problem. Kobe was very driven but unfortunately his need to be the hero was almost as strong as his will to win.

Billups became a very good PG but he was considered a disappointment his first 5 years, the last two of those years were with Minnesota. In fact he only started about half the time until he went to Detroit where his game blossomed. And if you look through the rest of that roster, maybe you'll change your mind on just how good KG was back then. He was good enough to make them a dangerous regular season team but IMO no one could have made them dangerous in the postseason.

Talent-wise, Kobe is probably top 10 all time. But all told, I wouldn't even put him in the top 20. I've never sat down and made a list so I'm not exactly sure where I'd put him but I suspect around 30th overall. All of this obviously is JMO.

On an all time top ten who’s your backup SG?
 

Finito

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Pre injury TMac was better than Kobe at the same time period they played.

Wasn’t even close. Kobe made all defense 12x while T-Mac never made it.

McGrady could get buckets but that’s pretty much it.
 

Cheesebeef

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KG was the least clutch superstar I’ve ever seen. That dude never rose to the occasion down the stretch of big playoff games. Even in Boston, that ball was either in Paul Pierce or Ray Allen’s hands in crunch time.

He’ll always be blow all those superstars for me because of that inability to ever come through in the clutch.
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don’t agree about Duncan being over Kobe or shaq over Kobe. But I think Duncan is a fair comparison because Duncan and Kobe led their teams respectively over a long period of time. Both Duncan and Kobe won titles with hall of fame players who helped carry the load when they weren't necessarily in their prime. For Kobe it was Shaq when he was younger, for Duncan it was K.Leonard when he was older.

I think shaq was a worse teammate than Kobe going back to his days in Orlando. Shaq never maximized his own ability like Kobe did. Kobe matured when he got older and took care of his body. shaq did not. For me that alone makes Kobe a better leader and teammate.

KG should never be in that discussion with Duncan or Kobe, he left Minnesota. for better or worse, he couldn’t lead them to a title and never really had a signature playoff win when he was the face of a franchise.
I wouldn’t include KG either. But not because he was drafted by a poor team who didn’t have the advantages of the lakers or a coach/organization like pop and the spurs and thus failed to take them to a championship.
 

Lorenzo

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KG was the least clutch superstar I’ve ever seen. That dude never rose to the occasion down the stretch of big playoff games. Even in Boston, that ball was either in Paul Pierce or Ray Allen’s hands in crunch time.

He’ll always be blow all those superstars for me because of that inability to ever come through in the clutch.
Yeah that’s kind of how I remember it. I didn’t watch a lot of KG other than when he played against Dallas and often times dirk outscored him especially down the stretch and more than held his own on defensive rebounding. I know KG was elite in the early 2000’s especially 03-04 timeline and I think they did make it far in the west one of those years.
 

Lorenzo

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Every good player has an ego, Kobe had an ego problem. Kobe was very driven but unfortunately his need to be the hero was almost as strong as his will to win.

Billups became a very good PG but he was considered a disappointment his first 5 years, the last two of those years were with Minnesota. In fact he only started about half the time until he went to Detroit where his game blossomed. And if you look through the rest of that roster, maybe you'll change your mind on just how good KG was back then. He was good enough to make them a dangerous regular season team but IMO no one could have made them dangerous in the postseason.

Talent-wise, Kobe is probably top 10 all time. But all told, I wouldn't even put him in the top 20. I've never sat down and made a list so I'm not exactly sure where I'd put him but I suspect around 30th overall. All of this obviously is JMO.
Yeah it’s kind of all fuzzy for me back when KG was elite and playing with the t-wolves. They did have some battles with Dallas back then and dirk often had great games against them. Of corse the kings, Spurs, and Lakers were superior to Dallas and Minn then so trying to make sense of this star vs. that star isn’t always fair. Dirk had great games against a lot of those teams but it often didn’t matter because it wasn’t enough. It depends on who you have on your roster and Kg didn’t have enough help in Minnesota.

Personality and off court stuff aside, I think Kobe is in most people’s top 10 if not, certainly top 15/20. I think his play after shaq improved and while he did have good talent around him, he was by far the Lakers best player when they won back to back later in his career. Honestly Kobe is probably the one player that reminds me of MJ. I never rooted for either player because they seemed very arrogant on and off the court, but I always gave them props for the way they stepped up and led their teams to championships. For me MJ is the greatest American player of any sport in my lifetime and had the most global impact of any American sport. Lebron is 2nd but Kobe is right there with lebron. Hakeem and Tim Duncan are probably the next tier and certainly the best of the traditional best big men I’ve watched. A lot of people forget about Hakeem, he could shoot from outside but was so good down low that he didn’t need to. Hakeem is probably the greatest foreign born player ever with dirk being right there too.
 
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Lorenzo

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Pre injury TMac was better than Kobe at the same time period they played.
I don’t know about that. T-Mac had moments of brilliance and he and dirk head to head had one of the best regular season games I’ve ever watched in 2004 (they were both shooting 3’s like it was 2020). I know t-mac had a good career before he got to Houston, but I always feel like t-Mac, Yao, and that rockets team in general were always underachieving even when they weren’t derailed by injury. It’s almost like all we have are what-ifs. I’ll never forget the dunk that t-Mac had on Shawn Bradley in the 05 playoffs.
 

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