DE in the draft 2nd round..

[EndZone]

I have seen a couple Mocks that have Kelsay and Redding being available at our pick in the Second. Who would you take? Kiper has Kelsay as the #2 DE behind Suggs and Redding is not even listed in his top 5. But I have heard a lot of talk about Redding.

DEFENSE
Defensive End
1. Terrell Suggs, Arizona State (jr.)
2. Chris Kelsay, Nebraska
3. Jerome McDougle, Miami-Fla.
4. Dewayne White, Louisville (jr.)
5. Shurron Pierson, South Florida
5a. Tully Banta-Cain, Cal
Suggs checked in at 6-3½ and 262 pounds but didn't run at the combine. Still, he's a top-echelon prospect and could go as high as No. 4. Kelsay had a solid workout and ran well, re-establishing himself as a mid-first-rounder after a late-season hamstring injury. McDougle flashed first-round ability but doesn't have great size. White could also be in the first-round mix, while Pierson showed speed and athleticism to go with a ton of sacks at USF as a combo linebacker-defensive end.

 

[EndZone]

More Kiper..

Sack Artists
1. Terrell Suggs*, DE, Arizona State (6-4, 262): As a pass rusher, he took over games all season long. In 2002, he recorded an NCAA single-season record 24 sacks and led the nation in tackles for loss (31½) while tying for the Pac-10 lead in forced fumbles (six). He also has the size to hold up against the run. Athletic and fast, Suggs was recruited as a tailback.
2. Rien Long*, DT Washington State (6-5, 291): He's as good as any DT prospect at getting up field and causing havoc in the backfield. He had 13 sacks and 21½ tackles for loss in '02. Despite playing only two years of high-school football, he excelled at the collegiate level.

3. Dewayne Robertson*, DT, Kentucky (6-2, 312): Strong and explosive, he led the Wildcats in sacks in '02 (five). He's tough to block because he gets such good leverage. He's a handful for an offensive lineman to handle.

4. Jerome McDougle, DE, Miami-Fla. (6-1½, 264): He possesses a quick takeoff and good closing speed. A natural pass rusher, he recorded seven sacks and 16 tackles for loss in '02. He has short arms but he's very strong. He wasn't always consistent, but when he turned it up a notch he could really get after the quarterback.

5. Chris Kelsay, DE, Nebraska (6-4, 270): He's a relentless, impressive talent, a hustler who takes advantage of any lapse in concentration by the offensive lineman. In '02, he led the Cornhuskers in sacks (seven) and tackles for loss (13). But Kelsay would have posted even better numbers had he not missed four games late in the season due to a hamstring injury. He goes all-out on every play.

5a. Michael Haynes, DE, Penn State (6-3 1/4, 275): He had an outstanding college career with superior production. And he topped it off by being the top player in the Senior Bowl game (with two sacks and two forced fumbles). In '02, Haynes led the Nittany Lions in sacks (15) and tackles for loss (23).

5b. Tully Banta-Cain, DE, California (6-2¼, 260): He has great pass-rushing technique -- he's as good technically as anybody getting after the quarterback. He doesn't have ideal size, but he finds a way to make life difficult for the OT he works against. He recorded 14 sacks, which is impressive in the Pac-10, where D-lineman face top-notch pro-style offensive tackles.

 

[Snakester]

Mel Kiper has been known to be wrong now and then but he is a fair judge of talent. Terrell Suggs is the man in the first but who will drop to the second round that is the question. Chris Kelsay to me is a KVB clone, I still think he will be there when we pick in the 2nd round along with Cory Redding and T. Banta Cain. If I had to choose It would be Redding for his all around athletic ability. The only thing negative about him is that he needs a little prodding once in a while but the talent is there. He can be a RE or LE and I would think he is the type to get ten sacks a year and be good against the run as well.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by EndZone

5b. Tully Banta-Cain, DE, California (6-2¼, 260): He has great pass-rushing technique -- he's as good technically as anybody getting after the quarterback. He doesn't have ideal size, but he finds a way to make life difficult for the OT he works against. He recorded 14 sacks, which is impressive in the Pac-10, where D-lineman face top-notch pro-style offensive tackles.

I pointed this out a while back in a thread about Suggs, while in general it's accurate to say the pac 10 has produced a lot of good OL's because of the pro style offenses(they recruit accordingly), surely Kiper noticed how many Pac 10 players had more than 10 sacks this year?

Rien Long for example has been getting ripped apart in the post season for his lack of athleticism, yet he had 13+ sacks this year in the pac. Point being it's pretty clear Suggs is head and shoulders above the rest of the pass rushers in the conference he had nearly twice as many sacks as Banta-Cain for example, but it's not clear to me that it's accurate THIS year to say Banta-Cain's stats are impressive in the Pac 10. Fact is there were a TON of sacks this year in the conference, I think several teams (UW for example) had a major problem protecting their QB's this year and it inflates the sack stats across the league.

I think Suggs is probably legit, I'm not sure Banta-Cain and Long are.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Snakester
Chris Kelsay to me is a KVB clone

KVB was far better than Kelsay in college.
I'm telling you, he's the break-out player in 2003. It takes about a year and a half to get over his injury. He'll be faster and stronger next year. If his first three healthy games in the NFL are any indication, he'll be solid. He's easily as talented as a guy like Wistrom.

Jim, has KVB been working out like a mad-man at the facility?

 

[bratwurst]

I agree with 11 - I expect KVB to make an impact like he did in the first few games he had before the injury. I still remember him blowing up in that game for the fumble recovery and touchdown against the eagles. If he can get back to his form before the injury and Bryant can show something after a full training camp, I think we are in a better spot then it appears right now. Granted, that isn't going to get us to where we need alone. If only Dennis Johnson could step up to the plate...

I think if we could move KVB to LE it would be better for us. Is Kelsay or Haynes a legitimate starting RE possibility?

 

[SECTION 11]

The muppet concurs.

Case closed.

 

[EndZone]

Somewhat disagree. While they are similar. KVB was never a pass rush specialist he depended on being fast and just beating his guy. Kelsay has moves and was more of a pass rusher. Kelsay had 7 sacks last year in 9 games (2 games limited so really 7 games) and he was on a REALLY bad defense. I would venture to say that Kelsay had many many more hurries than KVB. KVB never had more than 5.5 sacks and he played all the games and was on a pretty good defense.

 

[Rats]

Originally posted by EndZone
Somewhat disagree. While they are similar. KVB was never a pass rush specialist he depended on being fast and just beating his guy. Kelsay has moves and was more of a pass rusher. Kelsay had 7 sacks last year in 9 games (2 games limited so really 7 games) and he was on a REALLY bad defense. I would venture to say that Kelsay had many many more hurries than KVB. KVB never had more than 5.5 sacks and he played all the games and was on a pretty good defense.

I would tend to agree with Endzone...although I love KVB's motor...he would be better off over the RT whom he could have a chance against. Most Lt have long arms and get a good push that he can't beat. He has no leverage against them but he would be better than average on the other side if he stays healthy.

 

[bratwurst]

Thats what I was saying - move KVB to LE and then bring in Kelsay or Haynes to play RE.

It would be nice to bring DJ in as another rusher on the line on passing downs.

 

[mizzoucardfan]

1st of all, I think that Mel Kiper is the worst so called draft guru of the whole lot. I think that he just reads what other draftniks say about a player and repeats it. Being a Big 12 fan, I saw Corey Redding play several times this year. Look at the competition that he lined up against last year, Nebraska (still had a monster OL despite a down year), Kansas State, A&M, Oklahoma. And I was very impressed. Actually he reminded me most of a young Simion Rice w/o the attitude. Extremely fast off the ball and in pusuit of the QB, maybe not as good at stopping the run. IMO Redding is the 2nd best DE coming out of college this year at getting after the QB, and isn't that what most of us aree that the Cards desperately need. I think that he will possibly go in the 1st round, but if he doesn't and we don't get Suggs, I think that he would be an outstanding 2nd round pick for the Cardinals.

 

[bratwurst]

There was talk of Simeon Rice as a heisman candidate his last year at Illinios, as a DE. Was Redding getting that kind of talk?

Besides, if he's not as good as a young Rice against the run that is one hell of a bad knock against him.

 

[BACH]

I my opinion it would be a huge mistake to draft a DE in the 2nd.

Suggs and McDougle are the only players that the Cards could use. Drafting anyone else would be drafting for depth. Are anyone other than those two better than KVB? Can anyone contibute more than a rotation of Wakefield (rushing downs) and Johnson(passing downs)?

Remember that DEs are the highest paid players on defense. Why? Because they're the hardest to find. If you make a list of the 25 best DEs in the league you'll find that only one wasn't drafted in the 1st (Jason Taylor).

 

[Rats]

Originally posted by BACH
I my opinion it would be a huge mistake to draft a DE in the 2nd.

Suggs and McDougle are the only players that the Cards could use. Drafting anyone else would be drafting for depth. Are anyone other than those two better than KVB? Can anyone contibute more than a rotation of Wakefield (rushing downs) and Johnson(passing downs)?

Remember that DEs are the highest paid players on defense. Why? Because they're the hardest to find. If you make a list of the 25 best DEs in the league you'll find that only one wasn't drafted in the 1st (Jason Taylor).

I feel you are correct Bach...no one drafted in the Second Round at DE will have an immediate impact and we need someone to get after the QB from the get go...we can't wait for someone to develop...we have several of those candidates on our current D...We may have a Leonard Little already at LB in Thompson or maybe Fisher develops into a Colvin...but the guy we bring in has to be instant impact...at the DE position...not sure that guy is out there at #6 or FA.

 

[JeffGollin]

Suggs and McDougle are the only players that the Cards could use.
Ahem. Dewayne White, DE Louisville. If any of you kept a tape of a Louisville game to watch Ragone, you can see White in action. He was one of the few DE's besides Suggs and McDougle who flashed anything late in the season.

Ahem #2- Tyler Brayton. Surprisingly good pass rush displayed in post season games.

 

[mizzoucardfan]

Hey Bratwurst- I didn't mean to say that Redding was not as good as Rice in stopping the run, Just that he is not as good against the run as he is a pass rusher. Now it has been a few years since Rice was in college, but I don't remember him as being touted as a Heisman candidate ( could be wrong), as a matter of fact, as I seem to recall, he was considered the 2nd best defensive player on the Ill. team? The other player was , I think, a linebacker that also was chosen in the 1st round. Maybe someone else can remember the name. Ed, one of you Ill. guys?

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by mizzoucardfan
Hey Bratwurst- I didn't mean to say that Redding was not as good as Rice in stopping the run, Just that he is not as good against the run as he is a pass rusher. Now it has been a few years since Rice was in college, but I don't remember him as being touted as a Heisman candidate ( could be wrong), as a matter of fact, as I seem to recall, he was considered the 2nd best defensive player on the Ill. team? The other player was , I think, a linebacker that also was chosen in the 1st round. Maybe someone else can remember the name. Ed, one of you Ill. guys?

kevin hardy (bengals now?)

 

[mizzoucardfan]

Thanks Section 11. You are right. And a good memory, too.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Hands down

Corey Redding is twice the run stopper Rice is. I have seen Redding play many times at UT as well against good competition and if the Cards go DE in the 2nd rd than they would do well to draft Redding if he is available.. I don't think he will be their when we pick. NFL teams have seen how past UT DL have fared and Redding will be solid at the very least. Athlon sports rated him in the possible top five players selected last year when looking towards the next draft. Redding can play, I think he has even more to offer than Jammer a former high UT pick. There is to me less hype on Redding and more reality when all is said and done compared to the opposite with a player like Jammer.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Hands down

Originally posted by Jetstream Green
Corey Redding is twice the run stopper Rice is. I have seen Redding play many times at UT as well against good competition and if the Cards go DE in the 2nd rd than they would do well to draft Redding if he is available.. I don't think he will be their when we pick. NFL teams have seen how past UT DL have fared and Redding will be solid at the very least. Athlon sports rated him in the possible top five players selected last year when looking towards the next draft. Redding can play, I think he has even more to offer than Jammer a former high UT pick. There is to me less hype on Redding and more reality when all is said and done compared to the opposite with a player like Jammer.

Redding is alot more all around than he is given credit for. I like him...in the 2nd round if he falls that far.

The draft guy from ourlads.com was just on KDUS and he is VERY VERY high on Peek as a pure pass rusher and they have him late 2nd round right now and moving up. VERY VERY high on him.

It was a informative interview...must be since I have made 3 posts on 3 threads about this interview. He does a weekly every Thursday with MJ and Lewis.

 

[CardLogic]

5a. Michael Haynes, DE, Penn State (6-3 1/4, 275): He had an outstanding college career with superior production. And he topped it off by being the top player in the Senior Bowl game (with two sacks and two forced fumbles). In '02, Haynes led the Nittany Lions in sacks (15) and tackles for loss (23).

Add led Nittany Lions in forced fumbles (7).

Granted Haynes had the advantage of playing with Jimmy Kennedy, or maybe Kennedy had the advantage of playing along side Haynes!

He is not the pure rusher that Suggs is but Haynes IMHO he is better all-round DE that Suggs. Haynes had an impact in every game the Lions played last fall. He is a very good rush end and plays great against the run.

The # 6 pick might be a bit high for Haynes; but he won't be around for the Cards second pick.