Dare I say the "T" word . . . ?

[Chaplin]

Did tanking “stunt” their growth lost season? Sure doesn’t seem like it. The non-tankers keep throwing around that argument like it’s fact. It’s not. If you just moderate their minutes and trade chandler (yes he’s adding a positive impact to the winning) maybe it allows them to continue their development and lose at the same time.

It just boggles my mind how you and pokerface cannot fathom what a losing culture is and how it affects young players, let alone the bottom line of a business.

 

[Chaplin]

Dude get off it. No one ever said that. Coaches don't tell players to play bad. They play the young guys and it comes out however it's comes out.

Keeping Chandler and Bledsoe around doesn't make any sense. They only have a couple seasons left..

Then I guess you don't understand the definition of tanking.

 

[pokerface]

Then I guess you don't understand the definition of tanking.

What are you saying. Teams that tanked told their players to lose??

 

[pokerface]

It just boggles my mind how you and pokerface cannot fathom what a losing culture is and how it affects young players, let alone the bottom line of a business.

It blows by mind how you can't fathom that most of our team came through the draft and that is where we stand the best chance of improvement. That's why Sarver and McD tanked.

 

[JCSunsfan]

So. How long we going to argue this? The problem with tanking is it becomes chronic. Its like you (generically) cannot get enough. One more year. Oh oh, this next one will be a good one.

Tanking is like living in your parents house at 30. Its sometimes necessary, but if you start to get comfortable with it, even for an extra minute, its really sad.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's not an ownership thing but it's a theme thread. It's about fans that care about the draft. It's not about fans that knock other fans for what they believe.

I really like the draft but I'm not one to embrace the tank early in the season. Last season I tried to do threads beyond the top players in the draft although I wished there had been more interest.

I remember one of those threads pertained to Markkanen who was drafted 7th and we know how that turned out. He may be a young star in the making. Can't remember how far down I went, but I did one on Zach Collins who was drafted 10th.

Again, I'd like the Suns forum to do threads on individual player projected to go in the first round or beyond especially since the Suns will likely have two first round picks.

Ouchie's thread will always be here and relevant.

My only suggestion is let's expand draft coverage beyond the very top picks.

 

[pokerface]

So. How long we going to argue this? The problem with tanking is it becomes chronic. Its like you (generically) cannot get enough. One more year. Oh oh, this next one will be a good one.

Tanking is like living in your parents house at 30. Its sometimes necessary, but if you start to get comfortable with it, even for an extra minute, its really sad.

If we take what you say at face value it sounds reasonable but the moment it gets put in proper context it falls flat.


The proper context is this. The suns are already in a uphill situation. They are extremely young and coming off a bad season. Player movements made the Western Conference tougher. This is the last season under the current lottery rules which favors the suns. The draft has multiple bigs which could be game changers. We no longer control Len after this season and it's in doubt if we even want him long term. Chandler has two seasons left and doesn't fit into our future. Williams is good but a bit undersized for being a full time starter 'maybe'. Don't know what Benders final position will be.

I never said sit players at this juncture in the season. I don't like Chandler (and Len) artificially inflating our wins and keeping us from having a long term solution at center. The wins are artificial because their future with us is in doubt.

 

[Errntknght]

[QUOTE="Mainstreet, post: 3592343, member: 1040"... Last season I tried to do threads beyond the top players in the draft although I wished there had been more interest.

I remember one of those threads pertained to Markkanen who was drafted 7th and we know how that turned out. He may be a young star in the making. Can't remember how far down I went, but I did one on Zach Collins who was drafted 10th.[/QUOTE]

We didn't do threads on the individuals but we covered some players, mainly bigs, who might be around for our second pick. Not many that we hoped would be available were. McD came up with Davon Reed, who we never mentioned and I think he'll prove to be a very fine pick. Heck, I have pretty high hopes for Alec Peters.

I talked up John Collins as a big who might fall - no 3pt range but a sneaky good scorer around the paint. In fact, I hoped we might snare a pick around 20 to get him. Atlanta took him at 19 and he's playing 20 min/gm and doing extremely well scoring, rebounding and blocking shots. If he keeps it up he'll be on the all-rookie team. He's outperforming Markkenen across the board(3pt shooting excepted, of course), for example.

Edit: Sorry for going off topic... I'm blaming Mainstreet!

 

[Errntknght]

If we take what you say at face value it sounds reasonable but the moment it gets put in proper context it falls flat.


The proper context is this. The suns are already in a uphill situation. They are extremely young and coming off a bad season. Player movements made the Western Conference tougher. This is the last season under the current lottery rules which favors the suns. The draft has multiple bigs which could be game changers. We no longer control Len after this season and it's in doubt if we even want him long term. Chandler has two seasons left and doesn't fit into our future. Williams is good but a bit undersized for being a full time starter 'maybe'. Don't know what Benders final position will be.

I never said sit players at this juncture in the season. I don't like Chandler (and Len) artificially inflating our wins and keeping us from having a long term solution at center. The wins are artificial because their future with us is in doubt.

I realize the prizes for tanking appear most tempting and I'd go along with trading Chandler to increase our chances. But dang, if Len plays well enough to give us wins we should just keep him, unless there are indications he'll prefer leaving. If that is known, sit him, trade him, or waive him if necessary. If we have to play Peters, I'm tickled pink. If Len is determined to leave I think his teammates will pick up on that - and would be happy to have him gone one way or another.

 

[elindholm]

Did tanking “stunt” their growth lost season? Sure doesn’t seem like it.

It's hard to know whether the young players' lack of development was due to tanking or due to Watson. It's possible that Watson was bad enough that their progress would have been impaired regardless, and maybe Triano will be good enough that they can continue to get better even while cleverly figuring out secret ways to lose a lot. I'd rather not take the chance. Let them get as good as they can get, and if they accidentally win too many games, then hope for the best going forward.

I see this as much different from the first Hornacek year, when the overachievement was fool's gold because the young talent on the roster was not really there.

 

[pokerface]

I realize the prizes for tanking appear most tempting and I'd go along with trading Chandler to increase our chances. But dang, if Len plays well enough to give us wins we should just keep him, unless there are indications he'll prefer leaving. If that is known, sit him, trade him, or waive him if necessary. If we have to play Peters, I'm tickled pink. If Len is determined to leave I think his teammates will pick up on that - and would be happy to have him gone one way or another.

Len might put up ok numbers on occasion but the team generally plays worse with him in the game. His plus minus is never all that good.

 

[Errntknght]

Coming into this year Len was a tanking 'asset' but IMO, he's climbed up to neutral so far and could climb further. To tell the truth, whatever his value, if he's going to leave I'd like it to happen ASAP.

 

[pokerface]

Coming into this year Len was a tanking 'asset' but IMO, he's climbed up to neutral so far and could climb further. To tell the truth, whatever his value, if he's going to leave I'd like it to happen ASAP.

We can't trade him. That qualifying offer restricts that. We have him for the full season now.

 

[Raze]

This sounds like a circle argument on semantics.

I'd prefer to just say I love what Tyson is doing for this team. I enjoy watching him lead (which I've never really seen him do). And I'm tuning in more than I have in a long time. And we are legitimately winning. Winning. The right way. This team is playing good ball. I want to continue to see them play good ball win or lose. Chandler is a big part of that. Bledsoe obviously isn't.

I have a bad case of draft addiction, and love to scout and spend countless hours laboring over who we should pick. Top 5 picks are far more fun. That said, I love watching this team win more than watching the draft.

And one huge thing people... We are ABSOLUTELY CURSED in the lottery. CURSED. We could win 4 games this year and I'd bet there's a 99.9% chance we'd get the 4th pick. We might even land the 5th in some wild Suns-cursed moment. (If Silver brings out a coin to flip I'm gonna shove a shoe into his face through the TV.) I wouldn't put a lot of trust in getting a top 3 pick. (We also nabbed the best prospect at #4 last year. We might be able to do it again.)

 

[Carolinacacti]

One thing the tank and Watson did was form a group that sticks together. Looks like they like each other and are having fun, even Len looks like he is enjoying playing with this group.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It just boggles my mind how you and pokerface cannot fathom what a losing culture is and how it affects young players, let alone the bottom line of a business.

Judging from the last 5 games it doesn’t seem to have affected these young guys at all. Remember, this is only warrens 4th year, bookers 3rd, chriss and benders 2nd, and jj and reeds 1st. The FANS have suffered through 7 years of losing, these players haven’t. It boggles my mind how you can be happy with mediocrity in lieu of a potential franchising changing player.

Hmm, the cavs sucked for years and got the first pick in the draft, seemed the franchise changing talent (lebron) or the ability to trade it (Wiggins) for an all star certainly changed the losing culture you fear so dreadfully overnight.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What are you saying. Teams that tanked told their players to lose??

Haha right? Chap it appears YOU don’t understand what tanking is.

 

[Mainstreet]

Haha right? Chap it appears YOU don’t understand what tanking is.

Holding out Bledsoe and Chandler last season amounted to telling the players to lose not that I disagreed with the decision.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So. How long we going to argue this? The problem with tanking is it becomes chronic. Its like you (generically) cannot get enough. One more year. Oh oh, this next one will be a good one.

Tanking is like living in your parents house at 30. Its sometimes necessary, but if you start to get comfortable with it, even for an extra minute, its really sad.

That’s a funny analogy, but no. I called for tank last year and this. Two great drafts. That should be enough talent accumulation.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I really like the draft but I'm not one to embrace the tank early in the season. Last season I tried to do threads beyond the top players in the draft although I wished there had been more interest.

I remember one of those threads pertained to Markkanen who was drafted 7th and we know how that turned out. He may be a young star in the making. Can't remember how far down I went, but I did one on Zach Collins who was drafted 10th.

Again, I'd like the Suns forum to do threads on individual player projected to go in the first round or beyond especially since the Suns will likely have two first round picks.

Ouchie's thread will always be here and relevant.

My only suggestion is let's expand draft coverage beyond the very top picks.

I’m good on that. Particularly given that we will likely have one or two other picks this year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Holding out Bledsoe and Chandler last season amounted to telling the players to lose not that I disagreed with the decision.

But they didn’t ACTUALLY say that, and if the players won it’s not like they were punished. For gods sake now your arguments are based on inferred messaging?!? Cmon.

 

[Mainstreet]

But they didn’t ACTUALLY say that, and if the players won it’s not like they were punished. For gods sake now your arguments are based on inferred messaging?!? Cmon.

Action speaks louder than words.

The Suns holding Bledsoe and Chandler out amounted to the same thing... intentional losing.

Bledsoe was not happy about it.

Come on Ouchie.

 

[BC867]

I may have mentioned it in a previous post, but I have been thinking about how important it really is.

The Phoenix Suns are marketing its Suns At 50 theme all season long. This is not the season to deflate that promotion by trying to be among the worst teams in the league for the sake of a draft pick.

Can you imagine Cadillac investing more money in advertising than ever before while coming out with its blandest style ever?

From a marketing perspective, it makes no sense. And would have been a total waste of money.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[pokerface]

Holding out Bledsoe and Chandler last season amounted to telling the players to lose not that I disagreed with the decision.

That's nonsense. Players play for their own contracts and coaches don't tell players to lose.

 

[Raindog]

Really, it is in the Suns best interest this year to be bottom 4 or 5 bad. But let's face it the Suns rarely have things work out that are in their best interest. So yeah, they are most likely going to be better than people expect this year, win 35 or so games, get the 14th pick in the draft where there are no players of consequence available... then next season take two steps backwards and get a top 5 pick in the 2019 draft where they end up with the next incarnation of Alex Len.

Book it.