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Mainstreet

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How so? It's happened before and teams have usually passed the player by when it does. And when the team takes the player anyway, they're regretted it. Just ask Boston about Jon Barry or Dallas about Kiki Vandeghe or Vancouver about Steve Francis or Charlotte about Kobe.

But that's beside the point anyway. I know this opinion isn't shared here but if you can't check the player out in any way it's extemely foolish to draft him. Bender should have taught us that lesson and this situation was even more extreme since we couldn't even get his medical records.

There is a flip side for a team not drafting a player they want even if he says he will not play for them, like drafting a player they don't value as highly, e.g, Jalen Smith.

Generally speaking, most NBA players that refuse to sign with a team are later traded to another team for a first round pick(s) or other compensation.

The Suns received a first round pick in trade for Jayson Williams. He didn't want to play for Phoenix.

Karl Malone wouldn't work out for the Suns. They passed on him and drafted Ed Pinckney.

I think Dallas and Charlotte did okay. What if Kobe had played for Charlotte? It would have been a home run.

 

AzStevenCal

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There is a flip side for a team not drafting a player they want even if he says he will not play for them, like drafting a player they don't value as highly, e.g, Jalen Smith.

Generally speaking, most NBA players that refuse to sign with a team are later traded to another team for a first round pick(s) or other compensation.

The Suns received a first round pick in trade for Jayson Williams. He didn't want to play for Phoenix.

Karl Malone wouldn't work out for the Suns. They passed on him and drafted Ed Pinckney.

I think Dallas and Charlotte did okay.

Not that I know but I wonder in how many of those situations were the clubs prevented from getting personal information and medical records? I have zero doubt that this forum would have roasted JJ had he drafted Haliburton only to discover health or character issues even had he been willing to play for us. And everybody points to San Antonio as one of the top front offices in the league but despite their needs and despite their fan base clamoring for Haliburton, they passed too.

I agree this turned out bad for us. And I also wished at the time that we'd have drafted him but the moment the report came out about his agent freezing all other teams out, I understood the decision. Granted, unlike some here, I wasn't wholly convinced on Haliburton even before draft night so I wasn't irate like many but I was a little disappointed.

The scouting reports I read at the time suggested Tyler might not be fast enough to excel at the lead spot nor a consistent enough outside shooter to thrive at the big guard spot. That's supposedly one of the reasons why his agent wanted Sacramento because they already had a quick PG that should be able to complement Haliburton.

Anyway, when you can't work him out against NBA level players, those projected possible shortcomings are real concerns for a big point guard. Those concerns were magnified because Covid shut down all postseason play including conference tournaments.
 

Mainstreet

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Not that I know but I wonder in how many of those situations were the clubs prevented from getting personal information and medical records? I have zero doubt that this forum would have roasted JJ had he drafted Haliburton only to discover health or character issues even had he been willing to play for us. And everybody points to San Antonio as one of the top front offices in the league but despite their needs and despite their fan base clamoring for Haliburton, they passed too.

I agree this turned out bad for us. And I also wished at the time that we'd have drafted him but the moment the report came out about his agent freezing all other teams out, I understood the decision. Granted, unlike some here, I wasn't wholly convinced on Haliburton even before draft night so I wasn't irate like many but I was a little disappointed.

The scouting reports I read at the time suggested Tyler might not be fast enough to excel at the lead spot nor a consistent enough outside shooter to thrive at the big guard spot. That's supposedly why his agent wanted Sacramento because they already had a quick PG that should be able to complement Haliburton.

Anyway, when you can't work him out against NBA level players, those projected possible shortcomings are real concerns for a big point guard. Those concerns were magnified because Covid shut down all postseason play including conference tournaments.

Who is this Haliburton fellow anyway?
 

Yuma

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If I were that guy I’d do nothing but strength and explosiveness training and three point shooting.
He did mention he was going to work on his three point shooting. He says he is career 40% where he was before. He didn't mention weights though.
 

Yuma

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Not that I know but I wonder in how many of those situations were the clubs prevented from getting personal information and medical records? I have zero doubt that this forum would have roasted JJ had he drafted Haliburton only to discover health or character issues even had he been willing to play for us. And everybody points to San Antonio as one of the top front offices in the league but despite their needs and despite their fan base clamoring for Haliburton, they passed too.

I agree this turned out bad for us. And I also wished at the time that we'd have drafted him but the moment the report came out about his agent freezing all other teams out, I understood the decision. Granted, unlike some here, I wasn't wholly convinced on Haliburton even before draft night so I wasn't irate like many but I was a little disappointed.

The scouting reports I read at the time suggested Tyler might not be fast enough to excel at the lead spot nor a consistent enough outside shooter to thrive at the big guard spot. That's supposedly one of the reasons why his agent wanted Sacramento because they already had a quick PG that should be able to complement Haliburton.

Anyway, when you can't work him out against NBA level players, those projected possible shortcomings are real concerns for a big point guard. Those concerns were magnified because Covid shut down all postseason play including conference tournaments.
I watched the Tyreese tapes and he is not speedy. But he plays like CP3 and screens guys out with his body to make room to shoot. He already has veteran old guy moves. He's not going to be fast, or jump really high.
 

AzStevenCal

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I watched the Tyreese tapes and he is not speedy. But he plays like CP3 and screens guys out with his body to make room to shoot. He already has veteran old guy moves. He's not going to be fast, or jump really high.
I've come to mock you for calling him Tyreese so consider yourself mocked. And while we're all laughing at you, hopefully no one will notice that I often screw up and call him Tyler. :)
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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How so? It's happened before and teams have usually passed the player by when it does. And when the team takes the player anyway, they're regretted it. Just ask Boston about Jon Barry or Dallas about Kiki Vandeweghe or Vancouver about Steve Francis or Charlotte about Kobe.

But that's beside the point anyway. I know this opinion isn't shared here but if you can't check the player out in any way it's extemely foolish to draft him. Bender should have taught us that lesson and this situation was even more extreme since we couldn't even get his medical records.
Comparing an American collegiate star, with more than a season in the ncaa to bender isn’t a comparison worth considering in this debate.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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He did mention he was going to work on his three point shooting. He says he is career 40% where he was before. He didn't mention weights though.
What did he shoot for us? Like 18%?
 

AzStevenCal

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Comparing an American collegiate star, with more than a season in the ncaa to bender isn’t a comparison worth considering in this debate.
You've followed the draft before, you know how important postseason play is when it comes to judging a player's capability of excelling at the next level. And GM's point to private and group workouts as being a significant part of the scouting process. Sure, we knew more about Tyrese on the court at a lower level of basketball than we did with Bender (by far) but it was still incomplete for both.

We had Bender's medical records, we had background reports on him and we did a private interview and had private workouts with him - all things we were denied with Haliburton. So yeah, comparing the lack of knowledge on both players seems very reasonable to me even if the absence of information fell in different categories.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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You've followed the draft before, you know how important postseason play is when it comes to judging a player's capability of excelling at the next level. And GM's point to private and group workouts as being a significant part of the scouting process. Sure, we knew more about Tyrese on the court at a lower level of basketball than we did with Bender (by far) but it was still incomplete for both.

We had Bender's medical records, we had background reports on him and we did a private interview and had private workouts with him - all things we were denied with Haliburton. So yeah, comparing the lack of knowledge on both players seems very reasonable to me even if the absence of information fell in different categories.
Comparing how a player plays against high level collegiate competition for two season verses how bender competed against a chair in a private workout isn’t comparing at all. We will just have to agree to disagree on the prudence and agree that in the end, with 20-20 hindsight, my foresight proved right.
 

Yuma

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What did he shoot for us? Like 18%?
I think it was in the twenties. He said the last couple months of the season was in the forties. He said his horrible start of the season buried his season numbers.
 

AzStevenCal

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Comparing how a player plays against high level collegiate competition for two season verses how bender competed against a chair in a private workout isn’t comparing at all. We will just have to agree to disagree on the prudence and agree that in the end, with 20-20 hindsight, my foresight proved right.
And that's not what I compared. I compared the lack of information about Tyrese and Bender.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Not word games and not worth your repeated cheap shots. We disagree.
What cheap shot? Are you not justifying passing on him? Are you not whitewashing the comparison points to make them the same? No cheap shots. When did you get so sensitive?
 

overseascardfan

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Here are some guys who would be available in an Ayton deal:
Carter Jr - Might have been off limits until now with the emergence of Banchero.
Turner - I'm sure IND would love to get Ayton as replacement
Poetl - TOR maybe interested because Ayton is more talented offensively and younger
Zubac - High motor and athletic but hands are just as bad as Ayton's.
Gobert - Would really be doing MIN a favor taking him off their hands
Capela - Same reasoning as Poetl


UFA options:
Wood - Talented but may have the same heart and drive as Ayton (not much)
Bryant - Looked good in LA and then shipped to DEN to ride the pine
Bamba - Can he avoid washing out of the league?
 

Phrazbit

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Here are some guys who would be available in an Ayton deal:
Carter Jr - Might have been off limits until now with the emergence of Banchero.
Turner - I'm sure IND would love to get Ayton as replacement
Poetl - TOR maybe interested because Ayton is more talented offensively and younger
Zubac - High motor and athletic but hands are just as bad as Ayton's.
Gobert - Would really be doing MIN a favor taking him off their hands
Capela - Same reasoning as Poetl


UFA options:
Wood - Talented but may have the same heart and drive as Ayton (not much)
Bryant - Looked good in LA and then shipped to DEN to ride the pine
Bamba - Can he avoid washing out of the league?

Bamba is looking at a minimum contract. If we keep Ayton he might be worth signing, they are friends but Bamba was adamant prior to the draft that he was the better of the two... maybe they'd actually push each other.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Bamba is looking at a minimum contract. If we keep Ayton he might be worth signing, they are friends but Bamba was adamant prior to the draft that he was the better of the two... maybe they'd actually push each other.
More likely they’d both allow the other to become lazier.
 

Yuma

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More likely they’d both allow the other to become lazier.
I worked at a company and they sent two guys to work in another state for a month. One guy was a hustler go getter type. The other guy was a just get by type. The hope was the go getter would rub off on the just get by guy. When they came back after a month, the hustler guy lowered himself to the just get by guy's work level. I believe in the Lowest Common Denominator in these situations. That's why stories of people lifting each other up are so inspirational, they occur rarely. I think the Least Common Denominator situations occur way more commonly! :thumbup:
 
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