Browns Trade Second Pick To Eagles

[Jetstream Green]

I think this is a clear indication that the GM for the Eagles is a complete idiot or rather does not have a strong opinion of the draft as a whole and its players... because the dude does not know yet who the hell the Rams are selecting!

 

[Buckybird]

I think it was a horrible trade for the Eagles... unless that QB leftover from the Ram's choice is the next Tom Brady

Why's that? A team that had no shot at a potential franchise QB (I think both are though I prefer Wentz) & no shot a winning a title without one, now has a glimmer of hope at a ring in the long run if that QB hits.

I don't think giving up a #1, 2, 3 & 4 is overpaying IMO at that possibility.

 

[Buckybird]

because the dude does not know yet who the hell the Rams are selecting!

According to the Iggles GM in his press conference he does

 

[Jetstream Green]

Why's that? A team that had no shot at a potential franchise QB (I think both are though I prefer Wentz) & no shot a winning a title without one, now has a glimmer of hope at a ring in the long run if that QB hits.

I don't think giving up a #1, 2, 3 & 4 is overpaying IMO at that possibility.

But I thought they are giving up next years #1 and then their second in the following year... what is the deal Bucky, is it just this draft that they pay the piper

 

[Buckybird]

But I thought they are giving up next years #1 and then their second in the following year... what is the deal Bucky, is it just this draft that they pay the piper

Don't count this years because they're getting the #2 pick in exchange. Again...I think it's not a bad deal. Plus you can basically cancel the 4 which I didn't see

 

[CardsFan88]

Yeah. I've heard you go through this routine a couple of times, and I'm not buying it. I don't buy that an offense that is called in from the sideline on posterboard is more challenging than Peyton Manning's or Tom Brady's. Chip has literally turned over his signal caller every year he's been in the NFL; you don't do that if your system requires time to master.

Based on what I've read on Kelly's offense (Smart Football's Chris Brown is an excellent resource on this), the run game is built around creating overwhelming numbers on one side of the ball, and the passing game is built around pre-determined route combinations. If the route combination doesn't work out, then you run the ball or release to an outlet player. You're the only one I've heard say (without support from outside sources) that Kelly's playing three-dimensional chess while everyone else is playing jacks.

I'll point to the three guys who got above-market deals based on outperforming expectations in Kelly's system.

Cool. I understand your position. You could be right.

Just pointing out a potential weak link in the chain. I feel a bit strongly on the issue because I think the flaw is a massive one. A deal breaker.

I asked my friend what he thought of Kaep in Kelly's offense and my friend came up with the same rationale. My questions were the same as his. Like me, he was very skeptical of Kaep's ability to mentally execute the offense as it needs to be.

Couple that with the 49ers willingness to trade him while the narrative is he's a perfect fit for it.... doesn't mesh with me. Something seems askew.

Why my friend? He was on a staff of a high school team that runs a Chip Kelly style offense. They did it well, because in the last 10 years they've won 8 state championships. He was with them for at least 5 or 6 of them. He wasn't running the varsity offense, but he was in a position where he had to know it very well, and has had positions on both sides of the ball.

Given all the above I posted my position as a potential heads up, though I feel strongly about it. I feel he has a fatal flaw in running it, and I'm truly interested in seeing how this plays out. Again I feel he would be better suited in Kubiak's offense which can protect him more and put him in a better position to succeed.

Thanks for the name of the book which describes Chip's offense among other things. I know where to look if I get a chance.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I've heard Kaep to Denver is a done deal as long as SF gets their QB. But, I think Wentz or Goff was their QB targets. If they take Lynch at 7, Kaep to Denver will likely be done as well.

 

[oaken1]

very possible the iggles gm picked up the phone and called the lambs gm...said he wanted to trade up to select so-and-so,...will he still be on the board at #2?

they didn't have to say who they were selecting at 1,...just who they were not selecting....these guys have all worked together for years...to lie in that situation, and take they guy you said you wouldn't...could create a lot of bad blood, and burn professional bridges.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yeah. I've heard you go through this routine a couple of times, and I'm not buying it. I don't buy that an offense that is called in from the sideline on posterboard is more challenging than Peyton Manning's or Tom Brady's. Chip has literally turned over his signal caller every year he's been in the NFL; you don't do that if your system requires time to master.

Based on what I've read on Kelly's offense (Smart Football's Chris Brown is an excellent resource on this), the run game is built around creating overwhelming numbers on one side of the ball, and the passing game is built around pre-determined route combinations. If the route combination doesn't work out, then you run the ball or release to an outlet player. You're the only one I've heard say (without support from outside sources) that Kelly's playing three-dimensional chess while everyone else is playing jacks.

I'll point to the three guys who got above-market deals based on outperforming expectations in Kelly's system.

My understanding of Chip's offense isn't that it is overly complex, but you do have to have the pre-snap recognition to maximize each play. The idea is to take identify and take advantage of mismatches either in numbers or one on one matchups in space. This all being said, I don't know that it is very unique from most offenses in the NFL which allow QBs to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage.

Where I could speculate is that Kaep isn't anything special in this area of QB play, and coupled with his inability to execute finesse throws. This makes him a very limited QB, one who is not a strong voice in the locker room, and isn't very supportive of the organization. This entire picture IMO is why the 49ers are comfortable moving on from Kaep if they can acquire a different and viable option.

 

[Krangodnzr]

My understanding of Chip's offense isn't that it is overly complex, but you do have to have the pre-snap recognition to maximize each play. The idea is to take identify and take advantage of mismatches either in numbers or one on one matchups in space. This all being said, I don't know that it is very unique from most offenses in the NFL which allow QBs to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage.

Where I could speculate is that Kaep isn't anything special in this area of QB play, and coupled with his inability to execute finesse throws. This makes him a very limited QB, one who is not a strong voice in the locker room, and isn't very supportive of the organization. This entire picture IMO is why the 49ers are comfortable moving on from Kaep if they can acquire a different and viable option.

Based on the comments made by Peterson after playing the Eagles this year, I would say that Kelly's system is very simple.

Peterson said that after you saw the first 15 plays, you knew what the Eagles were going to do. From what I've read, Kelly has a small playbook and very small weekly installs. The point of his system is that it's easier for players to execute when they practice 15 plays over and over.

You are correct about his offense taking advantage of matchups, which is why Mariotta is the perfect QB for his system.

Mitch posted an article a few years ago where Kelly and others talked about his system. On of the ingenious aspects is that defenses always have to account for the QB as a runner on every play.

 

[Jetstream Green]

With the way the cap is now, teams compete off their draft class more than ever. Yes, you have to have your high priced studs like the QB, but you are still going no where if you give up basically the worth of the high end of 2/3s of a draft in my opinion. If the Eagles find their QB, they will still lose because the loss of the other picks in this draft will cripple them to fill out the roster with quality and youth, they will just not lose as bad but they will still be subpar. I am totally down with the Chandler Jones trade but we can still see now how just that second round pick is huge... and free agent plugs everywhere is the hallmark of mediocrity

 

[Jetstream Green]

My understanding of Chip's offense isn't that it is overly complex, but you do have to have the pre-snap recognition to maximize each play. The idea is to take identify and take advantage of mismatches either in numbers or one on one matchups in space. This all being said, I don't know that it is very unique from most offenses in the NFL which allow QBs to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage.

Where I could speculate is that Kaep isn't anything special in this area of QB play, and coupled with his inability to execute finesse throws. This makes him a very limited QB, one who is not a strong voice in the locker room, and isn't very supportive of the organization. This entire picture IMO is why the 49ers are comfortable moving on from Kaep if they can acquire a different and viable option.

I think Kelly's system can only really excel on the college levels because those significant mismatches do not happen in the NFL where a simple system is adequate to take advantage NFL defenses are more specialized (because these guys are professionals and that is all they think about) and more so they have an ability to react to offenses about 3 times faster than a college defense due to talent level... Kelly will not be able to carry such an offense into a post season and finish the deal, the defenses are too good for his system to be sufficient in my opinion

 

[Chopper0080]

I think Kelly's system can only really excel on the college levels because those significant mismatches do not happen in the NFL where a simple system is adequate to take advantage NFL defenses are more specialized (because these guys are professionals and that is all they think about) and more so they have an ability to react to offenses about 3 times faster than a college defense due to talent level... Kelly will not be able to carry such an offense into a post season and finish the deal, the defenses are too good for his system to be sufficient in my opinion

You speak like the Eagles did not have a top offense during Kelly's first two years in Philly. More to that point, you speak as if Kelly's offense didn't produce career best years from both Nick Foles and Sam Bradford.

Chip Kelly is smart. The idea that he doesn't evaluate the effectiveness of his scheme and his offense is funny. He will always keep some core concepts, but like all offensive minds, Kelly will adjust as he sees more and more of how defenses attack his offense.

 

[Mitch]

I think Kelly's system can only really excel on the college levels because those significant mismatches do not happen in the NFL where a simple system is adequate to take advantage NFL defenses are more specialized (because these guys are professionals and that is all they think about) and more so they have an ability to react to offenses about 3 times faster than a college defense due to talent level... Kelly will not be able to carry such an offense into a post season and finish the deal, the defenses are too good for his system to be sufficient in my opinion

Kelly's Xs and Os will win in any league. He plays the numbers game---it's really quite simple. If you zone him he overloads it, just as any basketball team would do. If you go man on him, he will try to exploit what he considers to be his best matchups.

What Kelly does so effectively is he stretches the defense out vertically AND horizontally. He makes you cover the entire field, which as we all know is quite a challenge for any defense.

Where Kelly is getting in trouble in the NFL is with his up-tempo. In college you have the luxury of having well over 60 players on the roster. In the NFL, he only gets 45 and thus he is getting his players gassed and frequently running them back out there too soon. As an NFL head coach, you don't want your defensive players disgruntled and overwhelmed. It's one of the reasons why coaches try to run the ball as much as they. They need to give their defenses some much needed rest in between series.

I think that if Kelly dials the tempo back, he will succeed in the long run.

 

[TJ]

Based on the comments made by Peterson after playing the Eagles this year, I would say that Kelly's system is very simple.

Peterson said that after you saw the first 15 plays, you knew what the Eagles were going to do. From what I've read, Kelly has a small playbook and very small weekly installs. The point of his system is that it's easier for players to execute when they practice 15 plays over and over.

You are correct about his offense taking advantage of matchups, which is why Mariotta is the perfect QB for his system.

Mitch posted an article a few years ago where Kelly and others talked about his system. On of the ingenious aspects is that defenses always have to account for the QB as a runner on every play.

Yep. It's a beautiful offense for simple-minded QBs, which is why it's a college offense. Designed to take a lot of pressure off of a college kid and focus more on technique than calls at the line.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yep. It's a beautiful offense for simple-minded QBs, which is why it's a college offense. Designed to take a lot of pressure off of a college kid and focus more on technique than calls at the line.

Kelly's offense has been successful at every level of football. It is misleading to discuss it like it hasn't been.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Kelly's Xs and Os will win in any league. He plays the numbers game---it's really quite simple. If you zone him he overloads it, just as any basketball team would do. If you go man on him, he will try to exploit what he considers to be his best matchups.

What Kelly does so effectively is he stretches the defense out vertically AND horizontally. He makes you cover the entire field, which as we all know is quite a challenge for any defense.

Where Kelly is getting in trouble in the NFL is with his up-tempo. In college you have the luxury of having well over 60 players on the roster. In the NFL, he only gets 45 and thus he is getting his players gassed and frequently running them back out there too soon. As an NFL head coach, you don't want your defensive players disgruntled and overwhelmed. It's one of the reasons why coaches try to run the ball as much as they. They need to give their defenses some much needed rest in between series.

I think that if Kelly dials the tempo back, he will succeed in the long run.

But one point that anyone who has watched a Kelly offense will make, is that the tempo is one of the reasons his offense is successful. He gasses the other teams and overwhelms them with play after play of essentially using overwhelming numbers, but if you slow it down and let the other team read and diagnose what his offense is doing, it wouldn't be successful.

It's a gimmick offense that is great at the college level.

 

[TJ]

Kelly's offense has been successful at every level of football. It is misleading to discuss it like it hasn't been.

I'm not indicating that it hasn't been successful in the pros, but rather, combating the notion that it's some complex system that requires advanced intellect to comprehend.

However, you're more likely to find it in the college game rather than the pros. Why? For the reasons I mentioned above. If you ask guys like Rich Rodriguez, one of the reasons coaches use the read-option is to catch overaggressive, undisciplined defenders off-guard. Most of those guys exist in the collegiate level, but not the pros.