2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[Mainstreet]

@Poop Head

@ColdPickleNachos

The Suns traded for the rights to the 10th pick in the draft with the 76ers. The 76ers drafted the player the Suns wanted in Mikal Bridges. Now we can get into why the 76ers made the trade but I'm not sure that's necessary.

We know why... Zhaire Smith would be available at #16 and they coveted that unprotected Miami pick.

I'm sure the 76ers would have happily drafted whoever the Suns wanted at #10... even Shai.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

@Poop Head

@ColdPickleNachos

The Suns traded for the rights to the 10th pick in the draft with the 76ers. The 76ers drafted the player the Suns wanted in Mikal Bridges. Now we can get into why the 76ers made the trade but I'm not sure that's necessary.

We know why... Zhaire Smith would be available at #16 and they coveted that unprotected Miami pick.

I'm sure the 76ers would have happily drafted whoever the Suns wanted at #10... even Shai.

I think the issue here is the timing. When the 76ers made the pick, they rejected the Suns. So they were not drafting for the Suns; they were drafting for themselves. Then, they had a change of heart. At the time of the trade, they couldn't retroactively draft someone else. Bridges is all they had to offer. He may have actually been the Suns guy, or he may not have but they still valued him more than 16 and the Miami pick.

McDonough said himself on the radio that the 76ers rejected the Suns at the time of the 10th pick because the Sixers wanted to draft and keep Bridges.

 

[Mainstreet]

Exactly, Suns didn't trade up. They traded Smith and the pick for Bridges.

This is what happened. If the Suns so desired, I'm sure they could have selected a different player for the 76ers to draft.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

This is what happened. If the Suns so desired, I'm sure they could have selected a different player for the 76ers to draft.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1570241/nba-draft-trade-mikal-bridges-made-suns-gm-feel-like-grinch/

"The Philadelphia 76ers selected Mikal Bridges 10th overall in Thursday’s NBA Draft thinking they’d keep him."

"The Suns appeared lined up to select at No. 16 before Philadelphia came back to Phoenix late on the clock to propose the Bridges trade."

 

[devilalum]

This is what happened. If the Suns so desired, I'm sure they could have selected a different player for the 76ers to draft.

Dude, do your amps go to 11?

McD said during summer league that the Sixers drafted Bridges for themselves.

 

[Hoop Head]

The Suns traded for the rights to the 10th pick in the draft with the 76ers. The 76ers drafted the player the Suns wanted in Mikal Bridges. Now we can get into why the 76ers made the trade but I'm not sure that's necessary.

We know why... Zhaire Smith would be available at #16 and they coveted that unprotected Miami pick.

I'm sure the 76ers would have happily drafted whoever the Suns wanted at #10... even Shai.

That's the thing though, the Suns did not tell the Sixers who to pick. The Sixers wanted to draft Bridges for themselves and made that decision before every speaking with the Suns. The Suns wanted a higher pick to select Bridges. Since Philadelphia also liked him, it looked like there was no deal for the Suns to make because the player they wanted was taken and there was no way to get him. They told Philly to keep them in mind if they would be interested in trading Bridges for any reason. When the Suns got on the clock at #16 they planned on using that pick for themselves until Philadelphia made the offer of Bridges if they used that pick to Zhaire Smith for them and also sent them the Heat pick. Since that was the player the Suns wanted anyway, they jumped on it. The Sixers had no intention of trading Bridges when they selected him. That pick was used for them.

What you seem to be saying though is the Suns told them to select Bridges, which isn't what happened. That would have been like the Suns picking Ayton all along because that's who they wanted to take but getting a call by say Cleveland at #7 and the Cavs said "We'll give you Love, George Hill, and select whoever you want at #7 for the rights to Ayton" and the Suns agreed to it. The Suns drafted Ayton for themselves and had no intention of trading him but were made an offer that made them decide to go in a different direction. The Cavs couldn't have selected someone else with the #1 pick, they wanted Ayton specifically. The Cav's didn't have the chance to pick Bamba instead.

That's how it seems you're saying the Suns got Bridges, with the Suns being the Cav's in that scenario and Philly would have played the Suns role in that scenario also.

The only pick made for another team was the Suns drafting Smith for the Sixers because that's when the trade was proposed, when the Suns were on the clock at #16.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the issue here is the timing. When the 76ers made the pick, they rejected the Suns. So they were not drafting for the Suns; they were drafting for themselves. Then, they had a change of heart. At the time of the trade, they couldn't retroactively draft someone else. Bridges is all they had to offer. He may have actually been the Suns guy, or he may not have but they still valued him more than 16 and the Miami pick.

McDonough said himself on the radio that the 76ers rejected the Suns at the time of the 10th pick because they wanted to draft Bridges.

I agree with the time frame explanation. I was just looking back and thinking Shai was available at #10... without looking deeper at this scenario. However, I understand Bridges was the Suns target all along.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

@Poop Head

@ColdPickleNachos

The Suns traded for the rights to the 10th pick in the draft with the 76ers. The 76ers drafted the player the Suns wanted in Mikal Bridges. Now we can get into why the 76ers made the trade but I'm not sure that's necessary.

We know why... Zhaire Smith would be available at #16 and they coveted that unprotected Miami pick.

I'm sure the 76ers would have happily drafted whoever the Suns wanted at #10... even Shai.

That’s not what happened. The prior description is accurate. The sixers were not drafting for the suns. In fact the suns didn’t agree to the trade until seconds were left on the clock for their 16th pick when they finally agreed to throw in the Miami pick. At least that’s what’s been widely reported.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

I agree with the time frame explanation. I was just looking back and thinking Shai was available at #10... without looking deeper at this scenario. However, I understand Bridges was the Suns target all along.

Yeah...McD said Bridges was the target all along...But that's likely what he says even if it's a half-truth. There's no upside to saying, "We wanted a point guard but couldn't get that done, but Bridges is a good prospect too, and once the point guards weren't an option, he was our target."

Not saying Bridges wasn't the target all along, but McD is not the most reliable narrator on that.

 

[Mainstreet]

That’s not what happened. The prior description is accurate. The sixers were not drafting for the suns. In fact the suns didn’t agree to the trade until seconds were left on the clock for their 16th pick when they finally agreed to throw in the Miami pick. At least that’s what’s been widely reported.

I was looking at it from the perspective of trading the rights to draft picks rather than players. Usually it is okay to look at it this way but certainly not in this case. Bridges had already been drafted.

I have it wrong. My apologies to all.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

I was looking at it from the perspective of trading the rights to draft picks rather than players. Usually it is okay to look at it this way but certainly not in this case. Bridges had already been drafted.

I have it wrong. My apologies to all.

No need for an apology. We all make mistakes. I wanted to give $20 million to Batum at one point!

After watching Summer League, SGA seems like a more convenient fit for the Suns this year. However, a guy like Bridges is hard to find, and the Suns are set up well to add a point guard next year. The trade is also looking better now that 2021 is less likely to be a double draft.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns didn't draft again until 16th so Shai was not an option. The only reason they got Bridges is because the Sixers' 1b player was still available at 16.

Absolutely correct.

 

[devilalum]

I was looking at it from the perspective of trading the rights to draft picks rather than players. Usually it is okay to look at it this way but certainly not in this case. Bridges had already been drafted.

I have it wrong. My apologies to all.

I do this a LOT. Apparently that's why I'm single.

 

[Hoop Head]

I was looking at it from the perspective of trading the rights to draft picks rather than players. Usually it is okay to look at it this way but certainly not in this case. Bridges had already been drafted.

I have it wrong. My apologies to all.

No need to apologize. I'm sure in a year or two we'll see that sort of talk more because the details of how some deals play out get forgotten over time. The majority of the time when trades are made involving picks in the same draft it's teams making selections for the team they're trading with and not trading players they selected for themselves, initially. It's unusual a deal like that happens unless it involves a top 3 talent also because typically teams will move on and work a deal for a pick sooner to end up with who they want because if a team likes a player and has the ability to select them, why would they trade them? Philly really liked Smith and that Miami pick though. Thankfully that pick doesn't appear nearly as valuable with the recent news of One and Done going away in the 2022 draft instead of 2021.

Really glad that change was announced. It wasn't really a change so much as the league clarifying when it would happen for sure rather than speculating. I could see that Heat pick actually playing a role in the league deciding when to finally remove the one and done rule. That was hyped up because it was the only pick that was for sure changing hands at that draft. The NBA might have planned for 2022 because all teams own their own pick in that draft now so everyone is on even ground, so no one can object that much. The league looks out for teams screwing themselves by trading draft picks, like with the Stepian Rule, and they had a chance to protect everyone in this scenario. Especially a top franchise like Miami and Mickey Arison and Pat Riley.

That pick was traded before the rule change was ever discussed so punishing them for it, in a way, was something that could raise an issue. Why would Miami support removing the One and Done in a year when they don't own their own pick? I know that's only one team but Riley and Arison are popular amongst league circles and I'm sure they could get some other teams to side with them in pushing the league to move it back an extra year. That may not have happened but now the league doesn't need to worry about it either. Every team will hold onto their 2022 picks like gold going forward.

 

[Mainstreet]

No need for an apology. We all make mistakes. I wanted to give $20 million to Batum at one point!

After watching Summer League, SGA seems like a more convenient fit for the Suns this year. However, a guy like Bridges is hard to find, and the Suns are set up well to add a point guard next year. The trade is also looking better now that 2021 is less likely to be a double draft.

I felt it best I own up to my mistakes because I'm sure others are on their way.

I think it is good to own mistakes. The defining moment in the discussion was when it finally clicked... Bridges had already been drafted. The 76ers were thinking on this trade scenario for awhile when Zhaire Smith gave them a reason to pull the trigger.

 

[Mainstreet]

Really glad that change was announced. It wasn't really a change so much as the league clarifying when it would happen for sure rather than speculating. I could see that Heat pick actually playing a role in the league deciding when to finally remove the one and done rule. That was hyped up because it was the only pick that was for sure changing hands at that draft. The NBA might have planned for 2022 because all teams own their own pick in that draft now so everyone is on even ground, so no one can object that much. The league looks out for teams screwing themselves by trading draft picks, like with the Stepian Rule, and they had a chance to protect everyone in this scenario. Especially a top franchise like Miami and Mickey Arison and Pat Riley.

I think you are really on target on this... why the NBA is planning the rule change for 2022.

 

[Mainstreet]

No need for an apology. We all make mistakes. I wanted to give $20 million to Batum at one point!

After watching Summer League, SGA seems like a more convenient fit for the Suns this year. However, a guy like Bridges is hard to find, and the Suns are set up well to add a point guard next year. The trade is also looking better now that 2021 is less likely to be a double draft.

Maybe I'm alone on this. If I were the Suns, I would not have included the unprotected Miami pick for Bridges. Another first round pick, yes, but not the Miami pick even if it meant not getting him.

The reason being, that Miami pick held special value, more than the pick itself. It might have helped the Suns trade for a star player later on.

 

[Hoop Head]

Maybe I'm alone on this. If I were the Suns, I would not included the unprotected Miami pick for Bridges. Another first round pick, yes, but not the Miami pick even if it meant not getting him.

The reason being, that Miami pick held special value, more than the pick itself. It might have helped the Suns trade for a star player later on.

I can agree with that. I think they knew it was unlikely the one and done rule would be revoked that year and felt the pick didn't carry a ton of value because of that and viewed it similar to the Bucks pick and let it go. Meanwhile the Bucks pick in place of the Heat pick would have favored the Suns more. Even though one and done wasn't being removed that year, it still had more value in future trades than the Bucks pick but I don't think they properly analyzed the value of those 2 picks and felt they were similar in a way and let Philly dictate which one they would get. It's too late now to do anything about it now.

I think the Bucks pick has potential to help us now, or be used in a deal where a team is looking to add something sooner than later. We've waited too long as it is to return to the playoffs and valuing an asset 3 years down the road more than one that could be ours next draft could be seen as looking too far into the future. The Suns need to improve now and be aggressive in acquiring pieces to help them immediately. McD won't be here in 2021 if we don't see a turn around soon. Meanwhile the Sixers have an interim GM that doesn't need to worry about a pick 3 years down the road. He won't be making that pick and it's a gift for the next regime that's brought in. It could even be a selling point while shopping for a new GM for them now that they're replacing Colangelo.

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe I'm alone on this. If I were the Suns, I would not included the unprotected Miami pick for Bridges. Another first round pick, yes, but not the Miami pick even if it meant not getting him.

The reason being, that Miami pick held special value, more than the pick itself. It might have helped the Suns trade for a star player later on.

What does that mean? The Miami pick was an asset, like any other asset. How would the Miami pick hold MORE value than say, our own unprotected pick? Are you saying you would have been more ok to include our own pick and not the Miami pick? What is the difference?

There was no way we were going to get Bridges without at least one of those picks. The only thing you can infer is that you don't like Bridges enough to include a draft pick 3 years in the future. That's really all you have to say.

It's still up in the air, but from everything I've seen so far, IMO you're going to eat your words when Bridges becomes what he can become.

 

[Superbone]

No need to apologize. I'm sure in a year or two we'll see that sort of talk more because the details of how some deals play out get forgotten over time. The majority of the time when trades are made involving picks in the same draft it's teams making selections for the team they're trading with and not trading players they selected for themselves, initially. It's unusual a deal like that happens unless it involves a top 3 talent also because typically teams will move on and work a deal for a pick sooner to end up with who they want because if a team likes a player and has the ability to select them, why would they trade them? Philly really liked Smith and that Miami pick though. Thankfully that pick doesn't appear nearly as valuable with the recent news of One and Done going away in the 2022 draft instead of 2021.

Really glad that change was announced. It wasn't really a change so much as the league clarifying when it would happen for sure rather than speculating. I could see that Heat pick actually playing a role in the league deciding when to finally remove the one and done rule. That was hyped up because it was the only pick that was for sure changing hands at that draft. The NBA might have planned for 2022 because all teams own their own pick in that draft now so everyone is on even ground, so no one can object that much. The league looks out for teams screwing themselves by trading draft picks, like with the Stepian Rule, and they had a chance to protect everyone in this scenario. Especially a top franchise like Miami and Mickey Arison and Pat Riley.

That pick was traded before the rule change was ever discussed so punishing them for it, in a way, was something that could raise an issue. Why would Miami support removing the One and Done in a year when they don't own their own pick? I know that's only one team but Riley and Arison are popular amongst league circles and I'm sure they could get some other teams to side with them in pushing the league to move it back an extra year. That may not have happened but now the league doesn't need to worry about it either. Every team will hold onto their 2022 picks like gold going forward.

Yeah, one of these situations that drives me crazy is Dragic. Just the other day on a summer league broadcast they talked about the Spurs legend of drafting great players late in the second round and Dragic was one of the examples. WRONG! The Spurs were making that pick FOR the Suns. The Suns had a deal in place and told the Spurs whom to draft for us. This was NOT and example of a great Spurs draft pick! Just like the Suns didn't choose to draft Rondo for themselves.

 

[overseascardfan]

The PG situation is kind of tricky. If they acquire another one most likely it’s a guy who is going to be brought in to start. If that happens PHX needs to waive and stretch Knight because he would be an expensive backup and take development minutes away from Okobo.

Evans would have been a better FA signing IMO than Ariza because of his ability to play 3 positions.

I think PHX was targeting Young & Doncic but neither dropped and maybe Ball was trade plan but Leonard to LAL did not happen.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What does that mean? The Miami pick was an asset, like any other asset. How would the Miami pick hold MORE value than say, our own unprotected pick? Are you saying you would have been more ok to include our own pick and not the Miami pick? What is the difference?

I can see the reasoning. In a vacuum neither pick would be more valuable. But projecting, the heat have little talent and what talent they do have is aging. Yes they could sign a free agent but in the past they’ve always had a stud to help attract other talent. They don’t now. Conversely the suns have a ton of young talent. Whether it actually blossoms is open to question but certainly the building blocks presently exist for the suns to be a better team by that draft compared to the heat.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's still up in the air, but from everything I've seen so far, IMO you're going to eat your words when Bridges becomes what he can become.

I’m curious what your expectations are of bridges to make such a strong comment. He was projected to be a great 3 point shooter and defender. From watching SL those two items look like they will play out. Similarly he was said to be deficient in being able to put the ball on the floor and create either his own shot or shots for others. That also seemed to be confirmed in SL. He’s also not a crazy athlete. Certainly not a bad, or even below average, athlete - but on JJ’s level. Rarely does a player acquire superior ballhandling skills in their 20s (in fact I’ve been wracking my brain trying to come up with a single example). So I think bridges ceiling is limited to a 3-D guy. Perhaps an elite 3-D guy, but that’s still a somewhat limited level player. I think it relegated him to elite #4 guy on a championship team, but if he’s your #3 you better have LeBron James on your team.

That said I really like bridges. Don’t get my commentary the wrong way. I just see his upside as limited to a guy who may shoot 3s at 40% at volume and shutdown defender. That will be welcome alongside booker and Ayton (if he develops as hoped for), but limits his overall value imo.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, one of these situations that drives me crazy is Dragic. Just the other day on a summer league broadcast they talked about the Spurs legend of drafting great players late in the second round and Dragic was one of the examples. WRONG! The Spurs were making that pick FOR the Suns. The Suns had a deal in place and told the Spurs whom to draft for us. This was NOT and example of a great Spurs draft pick! Just like the Suns didn't choose to draft Rondo for themselves.

Right. And I believe same for Barbosa (didn’t spurs draft him for us too?)

 

[Mainstreet]

Scott Bordow does a great question and answer session on twitter. Lots of information.

Might want to scroll through the entire discussion.

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Here is an example.

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