OT: The GOAT Debate

[Germz249]

Just my opinion and sorry for writing a novel.

I am not a MJ fan.. I am not a Kobe fan..

Lebron’s name shouldn’t even be in the goat conversation or in the same universe as MJ or Kobe.

Lebron is just a great basketball player that has had a long career. I don’t blame him for chasing rings. He was stuck on a team that just wasn’t able to put a lot of talent around him. He couldn’t have done it with what he had around him so I get it, but the moment you start to chase rings is the moment your name gets withdrawn from the GOAT conversations. Especially if you jump-ship as a free agent instead of getting traded away.

He leaves and then comes back to the team with talent around him and couldn’t even turn it into a dynasty. His only high point was beating a 73-9 Warriors team but claimed all that glory to himself.

He won the Mickey Mouse ring and proclaims it as one of the hardest.. it was a shorten season in the bubble.. but a ring is a ring..

He isn’t a player with killer mentality.. he shy away from the challenge by running away to join or form a super team. He gives up on his team when the going gets tough. He loves to flop but in the same breath talks about how tough he is. He is a poor sport and has all the excuses.

Kobe was the player in 2000s..
Curry was the player in 2010s..

Lebron was just a great player that always had another great out shined him. He is the Cal Ripkin Jr of the NBA but better.

He had his moment in the olympics and fell. It took Kobe coming in and showing everyone what a GOAT does. That alone should tell you he isn’t even on Kobe’s level. He shines when he is on a team but when you put him in a pack with other Alphas. He turns to nothing. Kobe was the Alpha of the Olympic team.. Curry was the Alpha of the Olympic team.. Lebron was just a solid player that contribute on those teams..

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

it wasn't a game to jordan it was war - both mental and physical war - it was life or death to him - both ends of the court - only player to win defensive player and the scoring title in the same year EVER - an alpha male killer whale amongst great white sharks - kobe was the closest when it comes to the absolute predatory mindset but kobe was more of a loner most of his career - jordan would have out alpha'd shaq - he would've have tortured shaq about his free throws mercilessly - shaq would have improved or asked to be removed cuz it ain't the size of the dawg - regardless - jordan and kobe stayed put refusing to accept they couldn't win a title for their team because accepting defeat wasn't in their dna - built different

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

ps

i think wemby may have the alpha serial killer gene as well but it's early

 

[Superbone]

And yet … no one is close to sniffing Gretzky’s records.

Not yet. They said the same thing about Jabbar's points record.

 

[GatorAZ]

Bobby Knight coached MJ in the Olympics in 84’ and called him the greatest player he’d ever seen before he even got drafted. You screwed up Portland.
.

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[Lorenzo]

Just my opinion and sorry for writing a novel.

I am not a MJ fan.. I am not a Kobe fan..

Lebron’s name shouldn’t even be in the goat conversation or in the same universe as MJ or Kobe.

Lebron is just a great basketball player that has had a long career. I don’t blame him for chasing rings. He was stuck on a team that just wasn’t able to put a lot of talent around him. He couldn’t have done it with what he had around him so I get it, but the moment you start to chase rings is the moment your name gets withdrawn from the GOAT conversations. Especially if you jump-ship as a free agent instead of getting traded away.

He leaves and then comes back to the team with talent around him and couldn’t even turn it into a dynasty. His only high point was beating a 73-9 Warriors team but claimed all that glory to himself.

He won the Mickey Mouse ring and proclaims it as one of the hardest.. it was a shorten season in the bubble.. but a ring is a ring..

He isn’t a player with killer mentality.. he shy away from the challenge by running away to join or form a super team. He gives up on his team when the going gets tough. He loves to flop but in the same breath talks about how tough he is. He is a poor sport and has all the excuses.

Kobe was the player in 2000s..
Curry was the player in 2010s..

Lebron was just a great player that always had another great out shined him. He is the Cal Ripkin Jr of the NBA but better.

He had his moment in the olympics and fell. It took Kobe coming in and showing everyone what a GOAT does. That alone should tell you he isn’t even on Kobe’s level. He shines when he is on a team but when you put him in a pack with other Alphas. He turns to nothing. Kobe was the Alpha of the Olympic team.. Curry was the Alpha of the Olympic team.. Lebron was just a solid player that contribute on those teams..

don't forget about dirk. he stayed in one place for 21 years. he never jumped ship or begged others to come help him. you can knock him for his defense all day and that takes him out of the GOAT debate. But he was a hell of a rebounder and was the best shot maker in the clutch in his generation. clearly the top forward shot maker and it's not even close. If he was American in those days I think people would have respected him more. Dirk took the last shot for dallas for about 15 years in every close game. he killed off more games than most people realize. and he really showed that in the finals against Miami's big 3. no one could guard dirk. the highlight reel of all his buzzer beaters are out there.

 

[Lorenzo]

For those who think my view of Michael Jordan is too one-sided, let me mention what I respect about him.

Jordan was an excellent example of how players from *his generation were more manly than today's players. All his particular faults and character weaknesses, were of a quite masculine type. I was intellectually amused to hear that he likes watching old Westerns before he goes to sleep--of course he would.

*(Yes, Michael Jordan technically is a boomer, having been born in 1963, shortly before the boom generation is usually considered over.)

I think it's pretty clear that MJ is the best overall player I've ever watched. 2nd to none. Kobe, Dream, Duncan, Lebron, and Steph are the next ones for me. all of these guys could play in any generation.

That said, I guess if you are talking about traditionally (manly) yes. but there were also some flaws with men back then, especially athletes. and today's athletes have had to adjust at least somewhat because of social media and other things. I think Jordan helped change the game from the old way to the new. where it became more about basketball than what was happening outside of the arena. he even talks about it in the last dance about his teammates caring more about partying than they cared about b-ball. Still yet MJ himself struggled with that and it is perhaps why his career had those massive ups and downs. players today clearly struggle with this as well, but in general I think the athletes now are better because they take the game more seriously and it's more competitive. Since I'm right on the edge of gen x, I'm kind of right in the middle of that boomer generation and the new ones. I think there is arguments for both generations of players. today's youth will whine about younger people in a couple decades. maybe even quicker than that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it's pretty clear that MJ is the best overall player I've ever watched. 2nd to none. Kobe, Dream, Duncan, Lebron, and Steph are the next ones for me. all of these guys could play in any generation.

That said, I guess if you are talking about traditionally (manly) yes. but there were also some flaws with men back then, especially athletes. and today's athletes have had to adjust at least somewhat because of social media and other things. I think Jordan helped change the game from the old way to the new. where it became more about basketball than what was happening outside of the arena. he even talks about it in the last dance about his teammates caring more about partying than they cared about b-ball. Still yet MJ himself struggled with that and it is perhaps why his career had those massive ups and downs. players today clearly struggle with this as well, but in general I think the athletes now are better because they take the game more seriously and it's more competitive. Since I'm right on the edge of gen x, I'm kind of right in the middle of that boomer generation and the new ones. I think there is arguments for both generations of players. today's youth will whine about younger people in a couple decades. maybe even quicker than that.

Wilt is easily the most impactful player I've ever seen and I really didn't see much of him until the late 60's when he was often accused of just going through the motions. But I'd put MJ on top when you're looking at overall career performance. I usually leave out the still active players when talking about careers but I'm confident that Jokic will move into second on my list. I think he'd need to win at least two more titles though before I'd consider moving MJ down a slot.

 

[Lorenzo]

Wilt is easily the most impactful player I've ever seen and I really didn't see much of him until the late 60's when he was often accused of just going through the motions. But I'd put MJ on top when you're looking at overall career performance. I usually leave out the still active players when talking about careers but I'm confident that Jokic will move into second on my list. I think he'd need to win at least two more titles though before I'd consider moving MJ down a slot.

yeah wilt was before my time and most people that saw him bring him up. I do think Jokic can be added especially for today's game. He's dominated the league for several years now.

 

[Folster]

I think the GOAT discussion is basicly impossible in any sport. There is zero doubt that athletes today are better than athletes from the past. The training, nutritions etc. have advanced so much and applied broader on the whole sport.

I agree to a point. Peak male base athleticism hasn't improved much since the 90s. Standing long jump and high jump records are from the early 90s. Even triple jump was 1995. However, sprinting seems to have peaked in the late aughts and endurance running records keep falling. For some reason the slight increase in speed hasn't benefited the jumps.

 

[BACH]

I agree to a point. Peak male base athleticism hasn't improved much since the 90s. Standing long jump and high jump records are from the early 90s. Even triple jump was 1995. However, sprinting seems to have peaked in the late aughts and endurance running records keep falling. For some reason the slight increase in speed hasn't benefited the jumps.

I completely disagree.

All records in pure endurance sports have improved significantly. Sprint, long distance running, triathlon, nordic skiing and cycling etc.

Even Lance Armstrong’s records started to fall 3-4 years ago by riders not doped up to their eyeballs. Pogi and Vingegaard are riding faster/harder than Lance ever did.

There are some records that will never be broken IMO. Mid distance female tracks records set by doped East German women and women’s swimming records set by doped Chinese women (I believe those have been erased officially)

 

[Adrian]

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