Playoffs: Suns @ Clippers Saturday game thread 4-22-2023 - Game 4

Cheesebeef

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You can't fire Monty unless you have a Pop or Spoelstra to replace him.
You can’t fire Monty unless you have arguably the best coach of all time or another sure fire HOF multiple title winning coach there to replace him?

This is the same Monty who’s coached the team to back to back epic playoff meltdowns?
 

Covert Rain

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Genuine question, when is a playoff loss not a collapse to you? I can understand calling the Dallas series a collapse. I disagree with the loss to Milwaukee being a collapse. So I'm curious, is anything short of a title this year a collapse?
There is a huge difference between a series going 7 and a team 2 wins away from a title and losing 4 straight. There is no way that is not a collapse. That is not a normal series loss. Guess how many teams have gone up 2-0 and lost the next 4 straight?
 
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Cheesebeef

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Genuine question, when is a playoff loss not a collapse to you? I can understand calling the Dallas series a collapse. I disagree with the loss to Milwaukee being a collapse. So I'm curious, is anything short of a title this year a collapse?
Any time you go up 2-0, winning those games with relative ease and then lose 4 straight, that’s a collapse. That literally only happens 8% of the time. I’d have to assume losing back to back years with 2-0 leads has probably only happened a handful of times in NBA history.

These aren’t foreign concepts.
 

Covert Rain

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Any time you go up 2-0, winning those games with relative ease and then lose 4 straight, that’s a collapse. That literally only happens 8% of the time. I’d have to assume losing back to back years with 2-0 leads has probably only happened a handful of times in NBA history.

These aren’t foreign concepts.
HA HA. You spoiled it for me.
 

Cheesebeef

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HA HA. You spoiled it for me.
It’s actually even worse than that.

In ALL of NBA History, only 3 TEAMS have EVER lost Back to Back 2-0 series leads. The last two years Suns, Chris Paul’s Clippers and of course, the 1994-1995 Suns to the Rockets.

what makes it even worse is that the Suns are the ONLY team that’s ever lost back to back 2-0 series leads with Home Court Advantage.
 

ASUCHRIS

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We were legendarily horrible at drafting under Ryan.
There were some huge swings and misses, but usually in bad drafts. He did pick Book/Mikail/Ayton/Melton etc, so there have been much bigger failures in that respect.
 

Covert Rain

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It’s actually even worse than that.

In ALL of NBA History, only 3 TEAMS have EVER lost Back to Back 2-0 series leads. The last two years Suns, Chris Paul’s Clippers and of course, the 1994-1995 Suns to the Rockets.

what makes it even worse is that the Suns are the ONLY team that’s ever lost back to back 2-0 series leads with Home Court Advantage.
Yeah, I was going to name teams. Man, there are only so many opportunities to share random useless knowledge stored in my dome. Thanks Cheese. ;)
 

AzStevenCal

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There were some huge swings and misses, but usually in bad drafts. He did pick Book/Mikail/Ayton/Melton etc, so there have been much bigger failures in that respect.
I give him credit for Booker and I guess Mikail (though I'm not sure he was still making those decisions by then) but that's about it. Melton was drafted by Houston.

He turned the first pick in a strong draft into a player many think is overrated and most consider him overpaid. I don't think McD deserves a lot of blame for that call but it's hard to consider that a plus either.

We have very little to show for the 12 first round and 8 second round picks he used during his 6 draft seasons. And when you consider that included 8 lottery picks I think that's legendarily bad. If we'd been fighting for a championship every year during that stretch, I'd just call his draft results disappointing. But when you consider we were probably the worst team during that 6 year stretch, it speaks volumes.
 

ASUCHRIS

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I give him credit for Booker and I guess Mikail (though I'm not sure he was still making those decisions by then) but that's about it. Melton was drafted by Houston.
Booker is a top 10 player in the NBA, and Mikail viewed as top 40. That's a pretty nice return!
And when you consider that included 8 lottery picks I think that's legendarily bad. If we'd been fighting for a championship every year during that stretch, I'd just call his draft results a little disappointing. But when you consider we were probably the worst team during that 6 year stretch, it speaks volumes.
I can assure you without looking that there are teams that have gotten less out of their drafting during the same period of time, so legendarily bad seems a bridge or two too far to me.
 

AzStevenCal

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Booker is a top 10 player in the NBA, and Mikail viewed as top 40. That's a pretty nice return!

I can assure you without looking that there are teams that have gotten less out of their drafting during the same period of time, so legendarily bad seems a bridge or two too far to me.
I'm sure you're right, there have been plenty of 6 year stretches where teams brought in even less than we did from the draft. I'm not sure you can find one though that did so little with so much.
 

AzStevenCal

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Bet my life he’s fired if we don’t win a championship
I don't think not winning a championship this year will necessarily see him fired but I do believe winning one might save his job. If Ishbia already wants him gone, a championship is probably the only thing that could delay his exit. But if Ishbia entered the picture with no plans to fire Monty, I'd expect him to give him another season at least.

IOW, I think Ishbia is likely to have already picked out his own coach and his own GM and ours won't get the axe because we failed to win it all. But winning it all might force him to wait a year or more.
 
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McD, when he was spilling the tea after he got fired, heavily insinuated that Bridges was not his decision.

Word is McDonough wanted to trade for Shai. It's hard to argue with that, although Bridges was a great choice too.
 

Yuma

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The only thing I can say about trading Ayton is in general people on this board will say we don't want a player because he costs too much for what he brings to the court. Other teams think that too about Ayton. We just saw that when we tried to trade him before. They let Ayton look for a trade, and at his price tag, there was only ONE taker. And it took a LONG time for that to develop. It wasn't like there was a bidding war for him. I think trading Ayton is really not as viable as everyone thinks.

My thinking is we CAN free up $15 mil or so buying CP3 out, right? We then have Ayton, KD, Dbook, and maybe get some lower cost upgrades.
 

AzStevenCal

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The only thing I can say about trading Ayton is in general people on this board will say we don't want a player because he costs too much for what he brings to the court. Other teams think that too about Ayton. We just saw that when we tried to trade him before. They let Ayton look for a trade, and at his price tag, there was only ONE taker. And it took a LONG time for that to develop. It wasn't like there was a bidding war for him. I think trading Ayton is really not as viable as everyone thinks.

My thinking is we CAN free up $15 mil or so buying CP3 out, right? We then have Ayton, KD, Dbook, and maybe get some lower cost upgrades.
To be fair it wasn't just about his salary which teams knew we'd match. Any team going after him knew it would cost assets plus that salary to make it work. It's typical to overpay a big man on his first non-rookie contract but for another team to do it and also give up players plus picks is far different.
 

Yuma

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To be fair it wasn't just about his salary which teams knew we'd match. Any team going after him knew it would cost assets plus that salary to make it work. It's typical to overpay a big man on his first non-rookie contract but for another team to do it and also give up players plus picks is far different.
Agreed. If he is THAT good, teams would have pulled the trigger with those terms. I still don't see teams lining up now, and we will want something ing in return still, or why trade him? I think we won't be able to trade him. I think the more viable option is moving on from CP3. Most likely we just run it back. The wild card in all this is Ishbia. We really don't know what this wild man will do.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don't see any of them as an upgrade. Maybe Lue. Nurse would be better as an assistant.

We miss having Willie Green on our staff. Bring on Nurse as an assistant until he gets his next head coaching gig.
Nurse will be a head coach this year. I think you may not be familiar with how well regarded as a basketball mind he is in nba circles.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Genuine question, when is a playoff loss not a collapse to you? I can understand calling the Dallas series a collapse. I disagree with the loss to Milwaukee being a collapse. So I'm curious, is anything short of a title this year a collapse?
Up 2-0 and you don’t even get to a game 7? That’s a collapse. Is it an “epic” collapse? No. But still a collapse. Let’s not make the Bucks some imaginary all time great team. We had the second best record (better than the Bucks) in the whole league and followed that up by running away with the league the next season. We weren’t some massive underdog in that series just because it was our first foray into the playoffs.

I consider it a collapse when you lose to an inferior team or play poorly. For instance I think monty is in the negative column for the clippers series. We are underperforming. But if we get bounced in a tightly contested series with Denver I wouldn’t consider that a collapse.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I give him credit for Booker and I guess Mikail (though I'm not sure he was still making those decisions by then) but that's about it. Melton was drafted by Houston.

He turned the first pick in a strong draft into a player many think is overrated and most consider him overpaid. I don't think McD deserves a lot of blame for that call but it's hard to consider that a plus either.

We have very little to show for the 12 first round and 8 second round picks he used during his 6 draft seasons. And when you consider that included 8 lottery picks I think that's legendarily bad. If we'd been fighting for a championship every year during that stretch, I'd just call his draft results disappointing. But when you consider we were probably the worst team during that 6 year stretch, it speaks volumes.
Man does that last paragraph put things into perspective. Yeeccchhh.
 

AzStevenCal

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Nurse will be a head coach this year. I think you may not be familiar with how well regarded as a basketball mind he is in nba circles.
Although I agree with you there have been a lot of great basketball minds that I'd rather not see in Phoenix.

I have no idea how he relates to his players but complaints about team morale and a general malaise throughout the roster are concerning. Same with the reports that he overplayed his top 6 or 7 guys and didn't give young players a chance.

My guess, we'd be better off with him as our lead Assistant than as our Head Coach.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Although I agree with you there have been a lot of great basketball minds that I'd rather not see in Phoenix.

I have no idea how he relates to his players but complaints about team morale and a general malaise throughout the roster are concerning. Same with the reports that he overplayed his top 6 or 7 guys and didn't give young players a chance.

My guess, we'd be better off with him as our lead Assistant than as our Head Coach.
That’s possible. But there were also rumblings that the raptors had their share of knuckleheads. Some likely somewhere in between is accurate. All I know is oriole rave about his in game tactics.
 

Sparky16

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Bottom line is the Suns need to figure out what they want to do with Ayton this offseason and not any longer. It's not fair to the team, Ayton and the fans to continue to kick this can down the road.

There are two options:

1) Come up with a plan to make him a consistent option on offense. Ayton has said that he wants to play more on the outside and diversify his game. Provide him honest feedback and help him to achieve his goal while being the best asset he can be for the team. Actually find him a coach that can work with him and not Mark Bryant.

2) Trade him. Replenish the bench and get some draft picks back.

I think 2 is the more viable option. I think at the end of the day, Ayton and the Suns are sick of each other and it's probably best that both parties move on. Because for the Suns, Ayton and the drama that surrounds him have become a distraction.
for me - DA is in the same column as Herm Edwards in my eyes on likability.
 

Raindog

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There were some huge swings and misses, but usually in bad drafts. He did pick Book/Mikail/Ayton/Melton etc, so there have been much bigger failures in that respect.
And not to defend McDonough, but aside from Steve Kerr's brief tenure as GM, the guys before (and after) McDonough during Sarver's ownership did a rotten job with the draft, too... which made it even tougher to have to deal with McD's failed drafts.
 

AzStevenCal

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And not to defend McDonough, but aside from Steve Kerr's brief tenure as GM, the guys before (and after) McDonough during Sarver's ownership did a rotten job with the draft, too... which made it even tougher to have to deal with McD's failed drafts.
Yeah but we had a lot higher picks under Ryan as we lived through the worst years in Suns history and he made little out of it. The picks he traded for Christ and Knight, the picks he wasted on Bender, Jackson and so many more. No other GM in Suns history has had the draft opportunities Ryan had nor the lack of success.
 

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