The Ayton Plan

[Big Al]

This is so on target Steve. The inconsistency at times is head turning. We all see it. A Top 5 guy doesn't have these wild swings. A Top 5 guy is more consistent. Some people on this board think that any objective criticism means you hate the guy or think he sucks. It's not the case at all. He still has room to get better and more consistent. I just don't know if we are going to see it in a Suns uniform.

I think that's a good call. We probably will see Ayton playing better somewhere else. And if he had wanted a max so badly he should have shown a more consistent play here. It happens players find that fire under a different scenario. And I like Ayton but it looks like his days are numbered here.
I think Ayton needs to mature a little more and then he'll be taken more seriously. Be aggressive young man!

 

[Mainstreet]

I guess you see a different player in Kaminsky than I do and that's ok plus he may be good lockroom influence. He was a great college player no doubt but to me it didn't transfer over. I thought Kaminsky would be a star in the league.

Frank Kaminsky is a nice depth big man. As pointed out, he played well before his injury this season.

He averaged 9.4 points and 4.1 rebounds for his career. Frank had a 31 point, 7 rebound game against Portland this past season.

I wouldn't count on him as a regular contributor but on the tail end of the roster he is a nice player to have and as you mention, he is a good chemistry player.

 

[Chaplin]

I guess you see a different player in Kaminsky than I do and that's ok plus he may be good lockroom influence. He was a great college player no doubt but to me it didn't transfer over. I thought Kaminsky would be a star in the league.

He literally had is best career game right before he got injured.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So in other words he didn't get "Gobert'd" like was suggested. At least not by Luka.

Do you think Luka took advantage of Gobert… by shooting 3s? No. Luka took advantage of Gobert by getting him on switches and then driving, creating wide open shots for others. That’s what happened a lot with Ayton (and anyone else who guarded Luka).

All of which is NOT to say Ayton is a terrible defender. It’s just to rebut the idea that his perimeter defense is special and that Dallas took same as Advantage against Ayton as they did Gobert, who regularly gets trashed here as being one-dimensional. Which he is… but at least he’s dominant in that one dimension.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Deandre Ayton is a top 10 center but checking a number of sites that rank centers, it's hard to find one that ranks him above #6.

The link below is from HoopsHype but it is from September 2021.

Ranking the Top 22 centers for the 2021-22 season

The center position in the NBA is one that has seen a major resurgence over recent years, culminating in 2020-21 with a 5-man being honored with the annual league MVP trophy. Of course, that player will finish quite high in these rankings, but will he be No. 1? And…

hoopshype.com

 

[Covert Rain]

I think Deandre Ayton is a top 10 center but checking a number of sites that rank centers, it's hard to find one that ranks him above #6.

The link below is from HoopsHype but it is from September 2021.

Ranking the Top 22 centers for the 2021-22 season

The center position in the NBA is one that has seen a major resurgence over recent years, culminating in 2020-21 with a 5-man being honored with the annual league MVP trophy. Of course, that player will finish quite high in these rankings, but will he be No. 1? And…

hoopshype.com

It's like that on multiple sites including the ones where I copy and pasted the numbers above. One thing I didn't point out? Many of those sites have built in qualifiers. For example they only include starters, guys who played a certain number of minutes or games. In multiple instances, I found out that if you create your own criteria include some of those guys (non-starters), they had better numbers than Ayton which would have pushed him down on some of those lists. If I recall when I was playing with them there were a couple times McGee and Biz were higher.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Do you think Luka took advantage of Gobert… by shooting 3s? No. Luka took advantage of Gobert by getting him on switches and then driving, creating wide open shots for others. That’s what happened a lot with Ayton (and anyone else who guarded Luka).

I was just told that Ayton barely guarded Luka. Again, I appreciate you defending your point, but comparing what Luka did to Ayton to Gobert getting Gobert'ed is just ridiculous.

The entire gameplan in that series was to go at Gobert - by any measure, Dallas wasn't doing that with Ayton.

It’s just to rebut the idea that his perimeter defense is special

What do you define as special?!? He's one of the best in the league at guarding the perimeter. Do we need to get you the stats again?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was just told that Ayton barely guarded Luka. Again, I appreciate you defending your point, but comparing what Luka did to Ayton to Gobert getting Gobert'ed is just ridiculous.

The entire gameplan in that series was to go at Gobert - by any measure, Dallas wasn't doing that with Ayton.

What do you define as special?!? He's one of the best in the league at guarding the perimeter. Do we need to get you the stats again?

It wasn’t just Luka Ayton was switched out on D.

Being one of the best of a group that overall can’t play the perimeter doesn’t = special. It makes him one of the best of a group that struggles to guard the perimeter. Yay. Special is one Skills actually have MAJOR impact on the game. I don’t see major impact from Ayton’s perimeter D game (or any other part of his game) which is why he’s a good C, but not a great one yet.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's like that on multiple sites including the ones where I copy and pasted the numbers above. One thing I didn't point out? Many of the qualifiers on that stats are for starters, guys who played a certain number of minutes or games. In multiple instances, I found out that if you include some of those guys (non-starters) they had better numbers than Ayton which would have pushed him down on some of those lists. A couple times on the data I looked up for example McGee and Biz had better numbers but were not included simply because they were not starters.

I'm more kind than Hollinger who has Ayton ranked #13 based on PER.

Hollinger's NBA Player Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

ESPN.com's John Hollinger has ranked every player by every stat possible in this impressive ESPN insider series. Sort by position, sort by NBA player efficiency rating, the choice is yours!

insider.espn.com

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I'm more kind than Hollinger who has Ayton ranked #13 based on PER.

Hollinger's NBA Player Stats - ESPN Insider - National Basketball Association - ESPN

ESPN.com's John Hollinger has ranked every player by every stat possible in this impressive ESPN insider series. Sort by position, sort by NBA player efficiency rating, the choice is yours!

insider.espn.com

Again, you guys keep coming up with these rankings that produce hilarious results.

Any analysis that leads to the conclusion that Porzingis/Harrell/McGee/Hernangomez are in the top 10, with guys like Ayton and Bam outside is just ridiculous.

 

[Covert Rain]

It wasn’t just Luka Ayton was switched out on D.

Being one of the best of a group that overall can’t play the perimeter doesn’t = special. It makes him one of the best of a group that struggles to guard the perimeter. Yay. Special is one Skills actually have MAJOR impact on the game. I don’t see major impact from Ayton’s perimeter D game (or any other part of his game) which is why he’s a good C, but not a great one yet.

One thing to keep in mind as well? 75% of Ayton's defended shots were inside the 3 point line. So, I don't know how much emphasis I put on his "perimeter defense" because the three is a low % shot anyway. I am not discounting it but there needs to be some context. If we are spending so much time hyping a CENTER'S perimeter defense rather than his interior defense something is wrong.

 

[Finito]

I think there's a hell of a variance between Ayton the defender on his good nights and Ayton the defender on his less than stellar evenings.

If you tend to judge DA by what he's shown he can do, you rate him highly. And it you just look at the numbers, you rate him as a fair defender but not elite. And if you're soured by his off nights, you can't help but be critical in your analysis of the guy.

What's worse is that the variance on offense is even greater. Given his age, I tend to value him on the higher side on both sides of the ball despite his frustrating nights. But it's no mystery why JJ might not be as high on him. I hope he is but who knows.

But that’s the problem with DA it’s become paralysis by analyst. Who else have we ever taken a look at by 2’ increments? I’ve been on this board since like 2005 and I never once remember us doing this to a player. This thread is 187 pages of DA debate.
His offense is another issues we are talking about defense here so I’ll stick to that.

You can only defend 2s and 3s in the NBA that’s it. At its lowest basic level that’s what it comes down to and he’s in the top 5 defensively at both. We play a switching defense so we ask our center to guard the perimeter and he ranks number one on defending guards.

We had a top 5 defense all year. “DA is the quarterback of our defense”- Monty Williams. That’s because DA is also responsible for calling our defensive sets.

And it’s still well on his good nights and bad nights, but Those stats,those numbers factor in his bad nights. Those aren’t just good night stats and they comeback with elite.

It has gotten so unrealistic with DA we literally pointed out he’s in the top 5 defending 2s and 3s and someone will still say he’s not a top 5 defensive center…wait what! You can literally only defend 2s and 3s.

This perfect flawless player that he’s being compared to doesn’t exist.

If you always look for the bad you’ll always find it and if your focus is always on what someone doesn’t do you’ll miss what they actually do. Not saying you, just in general.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One thing to keep in mind as well? 75% of Ayton's defended shots were inside the 3 point line. So, I don't know how much emphasis I put on his "perimeter defense" because the three is a low % shot anyway. I am not discounting it but there needs to be some context.

Agreed.

 

[Covert Rain]

But that’s the problem with DA it’s become paralysis by analyst. Who else have we ever taken a look at by 2’ increments? I’ve been on this board since like 2005 and I never once remember us doing this to a player. This thread is 187 pages of DA debate.
His offense is another issues we are talking about defense here so I’ll stick to that.

You can only defend 2s and 3s in the NBA that’s it. At its lowest basic level that’s what it comes down to and he’s in the top 5 defensively at both. We play a switching defense so we ask our center to guard the perimeter and he ranks number one on defending guards.

We had a top 5 defense all year. “DA is the quarterback of our defense”- Monty Williams. That’s because DA is also responsible for calling our defensive sets.

And it’s still well on his good nights and bad nights, but Those stats,those numbers factor in his bad nights. Those aren’t just good night stats and they comeback with elite.

It has gotten so unrealistic with DA we literally pointed out he’s in the top 5 defending 2s and 3s and someone will still say he’s not a top 5 defensive center…wait what! You can literally only defend 2s and 3s.

This perfect flawless player that he’s being compared to doesn’t exist.

If you always look for the bad you’ll always find it and if your focus is always on what someone doesn’t do you’ll miss what they actually do. Not saying you, just in general.

You have a short memory then. Before Ayton it was Booker being an empty stat guy. I have seen these board over the years go hard after Marion, Amare, Nash at times and slew of other players. Again, stop cherry picking. A simple stat around defending the two or three is one dimension of defense. That hardly tells the entire story and you know it.

It's hilarious that you think calling Ayton a very good defender and Top 10 is somehow a slight.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The crazy thing is no one is even saying he’s bad defensively. EVERYONE has said at a floor, he’s GOOD. But say he’s not elite and the die-hard Ayton defenders act like you just shot their dog.

 

[Mainstreet]

Again, you guys keep coming up with these rankings that produce hilarious results.

Any analysis that leads to the conclusion that Porzingis/Harrell/McGee/Hernangomez are in the top 10, with guys like Ayton and Bam outside is just ridiculous.

IMO, the idea is to get an overall comparison of Ayton to other centers. I agree he should not be compared to non-starters but a lot of sites do not do this.

Again, it's hard to find Ayton rated higher than #6 by most sites but I would rate him in the top 5 with Embiid and Jokic ahead of him. The others can be debated.

 

[Covert Rain]

The crazy thing is no one is even saying he’s bad defensively. EVERYONE has said at a floor, he’s GOOD. But say he’s not elite and the die-hard Ayton defenders act like you just shot their dog.

So this. I was going to say people act like Ayton has naked pictures of them in compromising positions but this works too. LOL.

 

[Finito]

You have a short memory then. Before Ayton it was Booker. I have seen these board go after Marion, Amare, Nash at times and slew of other players. Again, stop cherry picking. A simple stat around defending the two or three is one dimension of defense. That hardly tells the entire story and you know it.

It's hilarious that you think calling Ayton a very good defender and Top 10 is somehow a slight.

We have 200 page threads on Marion, Booker, Nash and STAT? Maybe I do have selective memory, but I don’t ever remember that. Who knows I’m probably wrong.

I’m not cherry picking at all. Those are what the numbers say and those number factor in all these bad nights you keep bringing up. Like I said those aren’t only good night stats and numbers.

I thank you for making my case for me. I honestly feel a little more validated on stance he’s elite.

I know I know on 15 footers shot by left handers in prime time games aired on ESPN he gives up 76% and he really needs to work on that.

 

[Covert Rain]

We have 200 page threads on Marion, Booker, Nash and STAT? Maybe I do have selective memory, but I don’t ever remember that. Who knows I’m probably wrong.

I’m not cherry picking at all. Those are what the numbers say and those number factor in all these bad nights you keep bringing up. Like I said those aren’t only good night stats and numbers.

I thank you for making my case for me. I honestly feel a little more validated on stance he’s elite.

I know I know on 15 footers shot by left handers in prime time games aired on ESPN he gives up 76% and he really needs to work on that.

It is cherry picking because you are ignoring all the dimensions of defense you don't like and doesn't fit your narrative. That's where your case falls apart. Again, you need to stop being so defensive about Atyon. Nobody said he sucks. Most people think he is good to very good.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So this. I was going to say people act like Ayton has naked pictures of them in compromising positions but this works too. LOL.

And the reason there isn’t as much chatter about CP3 stinking at the end or Bridges disappearing act is EVERYONE can see the obvious there that those guys were disasters down the stretch. There’s not a small contingent of the board seeing the game completely different from the majority of us and posting hair on fire responses to criticism of those guys.

But just say Ayton is good, not great and the argument begins. It’s quite frankly bizarre.

 

[Finito]

One thing to keep in mind as well? 75% of Ayton's defended shots were inside the 3 point line. So, I don't know how much emphasis I put on his "perimeter defense" because the three is a low % shot anyway. I am not discounting it but there needs to be some context. If we are spending so much time hyping a CENTER'S perimeter defense rather than his interior defense something is wrong.

And he ranks 5th in defending everything below the 3 point line.

See that 3 point line? Everything below it he ranks 5th in defense. Top 5

Soooooo

 

[Covert Rain]

And he ranks 5th in defending everything below the 3 point line.

See that 3 point line? Everything below it he ranks 5th in defense. Top 5

Soooooo

Sooooooooo ignore all the other dimensions. CHECK. Ignore where he ranked in other categories and the playoffs. CHECK.

Saying it again. Stop being so defensive and acting like people say he sucks.

 

[Finito]

It is cherry picking because you are ignoring all the dimensions of defense you don't like and doesn't fit your narrative. That's where your case falls apart. Again, you need to stop being so defensive about Atyon. Nobody said he sucks. Most people think he is good to very good.

Again I’m not cherry picking anything. Those are the numbers. What dimensions am I ignoring?

 

[Covert Rain]

And the reason there isn’t as much chatter about CP3 stinking at the end or Bridges disappearing act is EVERYONE can see the obvious there that those guys were disasters down the stretch. There’s not a small contingent of the board seeing the game completely different from the majority of us and posting hair on fire responses to criticism of those guys.

But just say Ayton is good, not great and the argument begins. It’s quite frankly bizarre.

I am telling you. Nake photos are involved.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ayton should have been paid the 5 year max of about $172.5 million. I'm not sure how many would disagree.

He is a top 5 center.

This thread has almost turned into a justification of why they didn't. It really makes for an awkward situation.