Defense is Passe in NBA

[WildBB]

An argument I hear all the time on this board.

Did anyone watch the opening game for Boston vs. Indy? Incredible clamp down D, particularly at the start of the 2nd half. Intense.

Suns finished dead last in almost every D category last year, even with some better D oriented players.....Holmes and Bridges.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Who on this board says defense is passé? Must be people I have on ignore bc I think it’s just the opposite here. We talk defense a lot. In fact I think we all agreed our mini runs during the season were fueled by good D. And we are constantly talking about Book’s, ayton’s and just recently oubre’s d. This board definitely pays attention and prefers defense.

 

[WildBB]

Who on this board says defense is passé? Must be people I have on ignore bc I think it’s just the opposite here. We talk defense a lot. In fact I think we all agreed our mini runs during the season were fueled by good D. And we are constantly talking about Book’s, ayton’s and just recently oubre’s d. This board definitely pays attention and prefers defense.

Prefer may be a stretch.

I was one of the few that preferred starting Holmes at C to start games and easing Aytons load in his first season. Most agreed that while playing a PF position in while at UA, it was a stretch for him to make much of an impact defensively. I think we saw that played out by and large. He going to really have to continue developing his body to get stronger this off season, as should Jackson and likely Bridges and Oubre.

Adding someone high in the draft or signing a good solid PF will be essential to Aytons development, imo.

Mostly where I heard the D passe remarks were last off season around the draft. I agree that it was emphasized more as the season played out.

 

[Chaplin]

Prefer may be a stretch.

I was one of the few that preferred starting Holmes at C to start games and easing Aytons load in his first season. Most agreed that while playing a PF position in while at UA, it was a stretch for him to make much of an impact defensively. I think we saw that played out by and large. He going to really have to continue developing his body to get stronger this off season, as should Jackson and likely Bridges and Oubre.

Adding someone high in the draft or signing a good solid PF will be essential to Aytons development, imo.

Mostly where I heard the D passe remarks were last off season around the draft. I agree that it was emphasized more as the season played out.

Hindsight is 20/20. When we acquired Holmes, there was very little to suggest he would be as effective as he ended up being. So 8 months ago, the idea of starting a guy who was an afterthought on the Sixers bench over the #1 pick was ludicrous.

There was no way ANY team was going to start that kind of player over the #1 pick. It just doesn't happen. 20/20 is great, because now that Holmes has shown he is a very capable backup center, you can pat yourself on the back and say, "I knew it!", but you have to call a spade a spade, that was a very controversial statement at the time. When did you actually make that statement? I don't recall anybody pushing for Ayton to come off the bench behind Holmes.

 

[WildBB]

Hindsight is 20/20. When we acquired Holmes, there was very little to suggest he would be as effective as he ended up being. So 8 months ago, the idea of starting a guy who was an afterthought on the Sixers bench over the #1 pick was ludicrous.

There was no way ANY team was going to start that kind of player over the #1 pick. It just doesn't happen. 20/20 is great, because now that Holmes has shown he is a very capable backup center, you can pat yourself on the back and say, "I knew it!", but you have to call a spade a spade, that was a very controversial statement at the time. When did you actually make that statement? I don't recall anybody pushing for Ayton to come off the bench behind Holmes.

I wasn't talking about the beginning of the season. Your jumping the gun there hombre.

Anyway Coach K should have tried him at the PF at some point. We never saw it tried really. Maybe a few minutes, a game maybe?

 

[Chaplin]

I wasn't talking about the beginning of the season. Your jumping the gun there hombre

Then you need to be more specific. You said, “I was one of the few that preferred starting Holmes at C to start games and easing Aytons load in his first season. Most agreed that while playing a PF position in while at UA, it was a stretch for him to make much of an impact defensively."

That doesn't say "in December" or "after the all-star break."

 

[Mainstreet]

Prefer may be a stretch.

I was one of the few that preferred starting Holmes at C to start games and easing Aytons load in his first season. Most agreed that while playing a PF position in while at UA, it was a stretch for him to make much of an impact defensively. I think we saw that played out by and large. He going to really have to continue developing his body to get stronger this off season, as should Jackson and likely Bridges and Oubre.

Adding someone high in the draft or signing a good solid PF will be essential to Aytons development, imo.

Mostly where I heard the D passe remarks were last off season around the draft. I agree that it was emphasized more as the season played out.

I think the Suns have the makings of a good defensive team as you note with Holmes, Bridges, Jackson and Oubre.

It seems like Oubre was the key that started the engine.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think the Suns have the makings of a good defensive team as you note with Holmes, Bridges, Jackson and Oubre.

It seems like Oubre was the key that started the engine.

Even on the bench, they have some good defenders. Melton, JJ, and even Bender and Okobo, though Bender is likely gone. I also think that Ayton will become a "plus-defender."

 

[Finito]

It’s been like this since the beginning of time. Defense in the playoffs is a different animal.

 

[Mainstreet]

Even on the bench, they have some good defenders. Melton, JJ, and even Bender and Okobo, though Bender is likely gone. I also think that Ayton will become a "plus-defender."

I look to see Ayton become a good defender as well especially if he is paired with Oubre and a defensive power forward upfront.

 

[Hoop Head]

Even on the bench, they have some good defenders. Melton, JJ, and even Bender and Okobo, though Bender is likely gone. I also think that Ayton will become a "plus-defender."

I look to see Ayton become a good defender as well especially if he is paired with Oubre and a defensive power forward upfront.

Do either of you think Ayton will ever be a good rim protector? I think he's a decent to good one on one defender and should improve in that regard next season but I'm not sure if he has it in him to be someone who can lockdown the paint. I don't expect him to be Rudy Gobert but it would be nice to have a Center who discourages other players from driving at will.

I'm not sure if he'll become a that guy, if he's not then we should look for an Ibaka type PF if one is available. The closest I could find is Maxi Kleber. He ranked 11th this season in block percentage at 4.4. That stat is calculated based on how many 2 point field goal attempts a player blocks while he's on the floor. Ahead of him in that statistical category are basically the top 10 in blocks per game in the league with guys like Myles Turner, Whiteside, Gobert, Anthony Davis. He averaged 1.1 a game overall in 21.8 minutes. He's a free agent this summer as well, he played on the Mavericks last year.

Here is the list of players who led the league in block percentage. I'll post the top 10 in overall blocks as well just to show how most of those ahead of him are also there, so he may move up with more playing time. He played alongside DeAndre Jordan in Dallas last year and is a PF. Could be a target, maybe. Here's a list of league leaders, you can view more as far as the top 20 in league leaders for block percentage or blocks on there.

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[SirStefan32]

It's hard to say, simply because "good" is such a broad term. I think he will be better than he was this year, but I don't think he will ever be a Gobert or a Turner type of a player.

I watched a lot of Mavs this year, and I really like Kleber. Pretty good defender, decent shooter, very active. Keep in mind, he is older than people think. This was only his second season, but he is 26 or 27, I believe. I am not doing the whole "Ermager, he is old enough to drink, so he doesn't fit the timeline" thing, but I am pointing out that he is likely as developed as he's gonna get.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's hard to say, simply because "good" is such a broad term. I think he will be better than he was this year, but I don't think he will ever be a Gobert or a Turner type of a player.

I watched a lot of Mavs this year, and I really like Kleber. Pretty good defender, decent shooter, very active. Keep in mind, he is older than people think. This was only his second season, but he is 26 or 27, I believe. I am not doing the whole "Ermager, he is old enough to drink, so he doesn't fit the timeline" thing, but I am pointing out that he is likely as developed as he's gonna get.

I like that he's older, actually. He's 27, turned 27 about two months ago so if we signed him for 2 years then he won't hit 30 on that contract. He's probably a year older than I'd prefer but he's actually in the age range I think we should be looking at for PF's. I think between 26 & 30, maybe 31, for a PF. You want someone who will be productive for the first 2 years for sure, probably 3. If he gets too old for the 4th then that sucks but at least we got 3 quality years from them before they took a big dip in production.

 

[SirStefan32]

I tend to agree. I only pointed out his age for the sake of the folks who may not know and may expect a second-year player to get significantly better. I actually think he is exactly the type of a player the Suns need. He defends, he shoots well, he blocks some shots, and he is a high-energy guy. He'd fit in with guys like Oubre, Holmes, Bridges, etc.

EDIT:
Speaking of Mavs, Finney-Smith might be a good option for wing depth if Warren and Jackson go bye-bye. Dwight Powell played really well after the all-star break too.

 

[Chaplin]

Let’s assume, for a moment, that shot blocking is a super important as everyone thinks it is. Shotblocking is based on positioning and timing, both of which can be taught to someone that’s smart enough to learn it. I think Ayton can do both of those things given time and practice. But Here’s the trick. If he learns the positioning and the timing to just be an average shot blocker his rim protection gets better incrementally. He doesn’t have to be an elite shot blocker to be a good defensive player. And everything he needs to know about being a good defense of player can be learned.

The only question is if he will learn it.