The Suns with the 2018 #1 overall pick select....

[ColdPickleNachos]

Firmly on Team Ayton but I don’t want to see Luka go Sacramento. Rather he get stuck in Atlanta away from the Suns.

As long as LiAngelo ends up on the Lakers, I'm happy.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Its all sarcasm. I wouldn't take him if we got picks with him.

Sarcasm...or destiny?

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/liangelo-ball-interviews-thunder-suns-nba-draft/

 

[BC867]

This almost like the "Fire McD" sort of debate. People said they would say "I told you so" if he screws up this draft and can't get the Suns back on track this offseason but if he does, what do they lose? Nothing, their team is good again. If the Suns draft Doncic and he ends up being a stud then what do the people who are so against him risk now? Are they really going to stay away while the Suns start winning again? No chance. If the Suns take Ayton and he ends up being Alex Len 2.0 then what? We're stuck with a draft bust while people 2nd guess the selection that the front office made.

There is nothing gained by anyone saying they'll quit watching if the Suns do or don't do something regarding the draft. There's no accountability amongst other fans. You can quit buying tickets and that might hurt the team and Sarver's bottomline but it's unlikely it will make a dent. This is just how fans voice their frustration. Fans shouldn't try holding other fans accountable either way.

Even opening up the possibility of comparing Ayton to Alex Len is, let's just say, not convincing. That is conjecture and if it applies to Ayton, it applies to Doncic. I choose the big man.

After 48 years of watching Phoenix (now the fifth largest city in the country) still act like a small town team like Tucson or San Diego (coincidentally Sarver's home town and his base business city), yes, I won't be able to give my heart to the Suns if they take a chance (as you seem to be calling it) on a Center that comes along once in decades vs. take a chance on a Small Forward (where we are already overloaded) to play Point Guard because he is a good passer.

That would be driving the spike into the Suns reaching the state of mind of becoming a (high) playoff contender. You know how refs call games differently in the post-season, favoring strength.

I was not being dramatic when I said that I could not bring myself to root for the Suns for a 49th season if management still acts like wusses. For me, enough is enough. Again I remind you to look at my age and picture how you'll think about it forty-three years from now. That is my perspective! And if you don't understand or respect my right to feel that way, you just might understandwhen you get older.

 

[Superbone]

Although I am a supporter of drafting Ayton #1 the better rim protectors might be JJJ and Bamba.

Ayton is not there yet.

Key word is "yet." I think he's going to be a monster with the right coaching and support.

 

[Phrazbit]

Even as a Wildcat diehard... this season of Wildcat basketball was one of the worst coached teams I've ever seen. They seem to have no system on either end of the court. I used to be able to count on a Sean Miller team to be good on D and "pray" on O, this season was, at best, the opposite, but the only reason they seemed good on offense is because they had a few good offensive players and one freak of nature in Ayton.

I have no clue how to judge Ayton as a defender. I suspect in high school and AAU he was so gifted that he did not need to try on that end to dominate... and at Arizona the coaching staff was quite clearly out to lunch this year.

Personally, I think they would have been far better if Ristic had been subservient to Ayton's playing time... I get that as a freshmen vs a senior that is awkward for the coaches, but you're trying to win games and you've got one of the best players you've ever had vs a guy who is starting because he's been loyal.

"Loyalty is a curse"..., when it comes to sports, it ain't just a specific user name on this site, it's a fact of life.

@LoyaltyisaCurse

 

[pokerface]

It comes down to this too...which player are we more afraid to pass on...Ayton or Doncic? Hands down it's Ayton...it's not even IMO...it's just fact. I don't think you, me, McD, or Sarver has the guts to take Doncic over Ayton ...even if they thought Doncic is better!


That's why Ayton is our #1....The unicorn dares you to pick someone different. If you take up the dare and are wrong you will be the biggest joke EVER. No one would say that about Doncic. No one would say..."Remember when you passed on Doncic for Ayton?...that was CRAZY"...nope...wouldn't happen. But the reverse could be said.

 

[Phrazbit]

It comes down to this too...which player are we more afraid to pass on...Ayton or Doncic? Hands down it's Ayton...it's not even IMO...it's just fact. I don't think you, me, McD, or Sarver has the guts to take Doncic over Ayton ...even if they thought Doncic is better!


That's why Ayton is our #1....The unicorn dares you to pick someone different. If you take up the dare and are wrong you will be the biggest joke EVER. No one would say that about Doncic. No one would say..."Remember when you passed on Doncic for Ayton?...that was CRAZY"...nope...wouldn't happen. But the reverse could be said.

Eh... even as a guy on team Ayton, I can totally see a narrative 5 years from now as "remember when you passed on one of the most decorated teenagers in history for a guy who couldn't beat Buffalo?"

The only thing that scares me is their mentalities. Doncic plays with fire, passion and excitement all the damn time, I don't see how a player as obviously skilled and competitive as him fails. Sometimes Ayton seems like he is coasting... but... again, that might be because he was on a terribly coached team, full of guys playing for themselves who ignored their generational center for long stretches of games. He is as skilled and as physically gifted as any big man ever... but I do wish I'd seen more passion in his play.

 

[Hoop Head]

It comes down to this too...which player are we more afraid to pass on...Ayton or Doncic? Hands down it's Ayton...it's not even IMO...it's just fact. I don't think you, me, McD, or Sarver has the guts to take Doncic over Ayton ...even if they thought Doncic is better!


That's why Ayton is our #1....The unicorn dares you to pick someone different. If you take up the dare and are wrong you will be the biggest joke EVER. No one would say that about Doncic. No one would say..."Remember when you passed on Doncic for Ayton?...that was CRAZY"...nope...wouldn't happen. But the reverse could be said.

This reminds me of the Oden vs Durant draft. That draft was hyped as a Jordan vs Hakeem type of draft in regards to the impact the players would have at the next level and Durant has definitely delivered on his end while Oden was a walking injury ward. KD's not Jordan-esque but he is a supremely talented individual that helped turn around the Sonic/Thunder. Oden fell apart, literally, and it's a shame but the narrative was always that you needed to gamble with the big because unless the smaller wing player is literally one of the top players ever, the big will help bring you into true title contention for years to come. Durant became one of the top players ever, so that looked like a bad move but how often does that really happen? Would anyone bet that Doncic will be one of the best wings ever? I wouldn't. Even if he's good, he'll need to be great to bring us into contention while Ayton could be really good and bring us into contention because that's just what dominant bigs can do. We saw that with Duncan and the Spurs for years, Shaq and the Magic and then Shaq and the Lakers. Barring injury, Ayton should help the Suns contend for years to come and you can't pass on that. Doncic may be a great player but unless he's literally the best Euro prospect ever he won't turn the Suns into title contenders while Ayton can do that.

I know some people say bigs aren't en vogue anymore and I don't think that matters. We've seen a resurgence of big's lately and they're not like the old school bigs that only operated in the paint and post, they're able to knock down 18 foot jumpers with ease and run the floor with smaller players without issue. You see it in New Orleans, Philly, Minnesota, even Houston with Capella. There is good reason to believe that mobile bigs will take over this perimeter oriented style that is dominating now. Even if it doesn't, Ayton should be a great 3rd option behind Jackson and Booker as our wings. If this perimeter style does dominate in 5-6 years then we may wish we had Doncic but having a 7 footer who has the same shooting range and is as quick as a wing isn't a bad thing to have. That makes Ayton a no brainer, IMO.

He may not be the defensive player that'd you like but looking at someone like Ben Simmons who was a weak defender in college gives hope that Ayton is a better defender than he's shown. He knew he was headed for the NBA after this last year at UofA. Why was he going to kill himself for a system that played him out of position? He may turn it on in the NBA and surprise us all. If he doesn't then he's just the player we though he was, which is a good rebounder, great scorer, and ok defender with potential to get much better because he has the size, strength, and smarts to be more than what we've seen. You can't pass on that.

 

[Hoop Head]

Eh... even as a guy on team Ayton, I can totally see a narrative 5 years from now as "remember when you passed on one of the most decorated teenagers in history for a guy who couldn't beat Buffalo?"

The only thing that scares me is their mentalities. Doncic plays with fire, passion and excitement all the damn time, I don't see how a player as obviously skilled and competitive as him fails. Sometimes Ayton seems like he is coasting... but... again, that might be because he was on a terribly coached team, full of guys playing for themselves who ignored their generational center for long stretches of games. He is as skilled and as physically gifted as any big man ever... but I do wish I'd seen more passion in his play.

Doncic does play with fire but so does Dragic and he's never been a true franchise player, nor could he have been on a successful team. It's taken him over a decade to make an All-Star team and that was as a reserve. Doncic figures to be a slightly bigger Dragic. That's not a bad thing but it's not #1 overall pick good. He's not a good defender and it's unlikely he'll ever be. Fire doesn't equal skill. He could burn a team just as much as he helps them. For every game his fire helps win a game there will be games where his fire takes his team out of games because he's just not hitting his shots, will he accept it when his shots not falling and defer to others or will he try to will his team back into the game? We saw that happen with Dragic and ultimately that ended up being an issue of sorts once he was playing with All-Star level teammates in IT and Bledsoe. Rather than beat them on the court he didn't like the challenge and sought out his own team, where he wouldn't be challenged by teammates.

I know they're different players but Dragic is Doncic's mentor. There is the potential that he'll clash with guys like Booker and Jackson because of his drive and since he has a history with Kokoskov, who knows how that would play out? They all play similar positions and there's no guarantee they'll be able to co-exist. With Ayton, he plays a different position and there is little overlap with Booker and JJ so there shouldn't be much of a clash with their egos on the court because they do different things. It seems like Jackson and Booker have made their picks clear also, they want Ayton. The team shouldn't listen to them entirely but what if there is a resentment if the Suns take Doncic? Doncic will be taking the ball from their hands and minutes from them also. That could blow up. If Doncic was guaranteed to be an All-Star then to hell with them, they need to make it work, but there isn't a guarantee he'll be that good but since his former coach is here there is reason to believe he'd be given a long leash and that could be an issue if the team isn't winning.

 

[HeHasRosen]

“but your white girlfriend?!?” . . . oh boy.

And no, no one here has said Doncic is magic. You did not see that.

uh... yeah. that ain't kosher.



i've seen him projected best case scenario close to that more than a couple times... or at least seen Magic's name brought up in convo when talking about him, talking about how he could punish smaller guards like Magic did and how he wouldn't have guard smaller guards like Magic.

Lets not get it twisted fellas... I am a minority so best we dont open that can of worms

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Haven't read this yet, but seems incredibly relevant:

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/23581610/is-luka-doncic-top-three-2018-nba-draft-pick

It's Insider. I'll let you all know if it's got anything noteworthy.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Starts off big!

Jonathan Givony: Barring a trade, I'd say Doncic being drafted in the top three is no better than 50-50. I've felt an increasing disparity the past few months between the public's bullish perception of Doncic -- which we share -- and what NBA executives say privately. While I believe they are overthinking things, the skepticism is a lot more prevalent than expected. You would think a guy like Doncic, who has played in as many big games as any teenage prospect in recent memory, would be relatively immune to these types of ups and downs in his evaluation process, but it seems that's not the case.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

I'm not ready to say he is certain to drop outside of the top three, but I do think that if the draft were tonight, I wouldn't have him in that range.

The fact that Sacramento (No. 2), Atlanta (No. 3) and Memphis (No. 4) all declined to send a single person from the U.S. to watch the Euroleague Final Four tells me something about their interest level.

At this stage, I think a lot of NBA teams have already made up their minds about Doncic, and it isn't quite as flattering as we initially thought.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I know I mentioned Magic in regards to Doncic because both are about the same size and they both don't appear to be all that athletic. They also both seem to be so effortless and smooth. But I never said his ceiling in Magic; Magic was a once in a lifetime player and it's ridiculous to say that Doncic will be that good until he actually is that good.

I'm on team Ayton, I just think the old axiom that you draft size first still applies. I fully expect some team in the future to build around a dominant big man and for that team to be unstoppable because a lot of the championship quality teams won't have an answer for the dominant big. It's similar to how I think someday soon in the NFL, some team is going to build this ultra smashmouth team that will take the league by storm because all of the teams are being built to stop the pass.

A core of Booker, Jackson, and Ayton has a chance to be good, but different than the other contenders and different sometimes can give a team an edge. If you think of contenders and up and coming teams, only the Twolves and Sixers are being built around bigs really.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

It talks about Doncic having leverage to help control where he goes, then says he has lost a little ground as a prospect for several reasons:

We've talked about the ridiculous number of games Doncic has played over the past 18 months -- the equivalent of almost two full NBA seasons in that span, handling the ball and being asked to create a huge amount of offense for his team every time out, and I really think that has caught up with him. He looked more athletic to me in September. European basketball is great in many areas, but making sure players are on the right diet and strength and conditioning program is not one of them. Plus, Doncic's affinity for junk food and the Madrid nightlife aren't a great combination here.

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

Givony:

It's important to note that I don't agree with these assessments. When a player his age has been as good as Doncic has in every setting, it's easy to expect him to continue to be really, really good in the NBA. Guys like him find a way, especially once they start to develop physically. So, like you, I would take Doncic No. 1. He's just too productive, too skilled, too smart and too good a fit in the modern game to pass up. I'll take my chances on a 6-foot-8, 230-pound point guard with a prodigious feel for the game every time.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Starts off big!

Jonathan Givony: Barring a trade, I'd say Doncic being drafted in the top three is no better than 50-50. I've felt an increasing disparity the past few months between the public's bullish perception of Doncic -- which we share -- and what NBA executives say privately. While I believe they are overthinking things, the skepticism is a lot more prevalent than expected. You would think a guy like Doncic, who has played in as many big games as any teenage prospect in recent memory, would be relatively immune to these types of ups and downs in his evaluation process, but it seems that's not the case.

NFL fans remember when teams were unjustly skeptical of a prospect.....his name was Aaron Rodgers. I loved Aaron Rodgers coming out of Cal and I remember thinking teams were crazy passing on him. I think if Doncic falls out of the top 3, it's likely that at least two of those teams will be kicking themselves five years from now.

Doncic IS NOT a finished product. Why is it that teams will gamble on college kids who are the same age but have shown so much less than Doncic? I think the answer is plain that the NBA is in love with elite athleticism. That's how guys like Tatum get devalued. Last year, I liked Tatum over Jackson because I felt that while Jackson might be a better athlete, Tatum was more of a sure thing. I feel the same way about Ayton and Doncic this year, with Ayton having the edge because his skills are just a little bit more elite.

 

[HeHasRosen]

Starts off big!

Jonathan Givony: Barring a trade, I'd say Doncic being drafted in the top three is no better than 50-50. I've felt an increasing disparity the past few months between the public's bullish perception of Doncic -- which we share -- and what NBA executives say privately. While I believe they are overthinking things, the skepticism is a lot more prevalent than expected. You would think a guy like Doncic, who has played in as many big games as any teenage prospect in recent memory, would be relatively immune to these types of ups and downs in his evaluation process, but it seems that's not the case.

I'm not ready to say he is certain to drop outside of the top three, but I do think that if the draft were tonight, I wouldn't have him in that range.

The fact that Sacramento (No. 2), Atlanta (No. 3) and Memphis (No. 4) all declined to send a single person from the U.S. to watch the Euroleague Final Four tells me something about their interest level.

At this stage, I think a lot of NBA teams have already made up their minds about Doncic, and it isn't quite as flattering as we initially thought.

Hmmm very interesting indeed. Thanks for the info!

 

[ColdPickleNachos]

NFL fans remember when teams were unjustly skeptical of a prospect.....his name was Aaron Rodgers. I loved Aaron Rodgers coming out of Cal and I remember thinking teams were crazy passing on him. I think if Doncic falls out of the top 3, it's likely that at least two of those teams will be kicking themselves five years from now.

Doncic IS NOT a finished product. Why is it that teams will gamble on college kids who are the same age but have shown so much less than Doncic? I think the answer is plain that the NBA is in love with elite athleticism. That's how guys like Tatum get devalued. Last year, I liked Tatum over Jackson because I felt that while Jackson might be a better athlete, Tatum was more of a sure thing. I feel the same way about Ayton and Doncic this year, with Ayton having the edge because his skills are just a little bit more elite.

Interesting you bring the Tatum thing up...That was also in this article:

In discussions about Doncic over the past month or two, some scouts have told me they believe they whiffed in their evaluation of Jayson Tatum -- and think of Doncic as a comparable case to try to learn from. Looking back, they question why they felt Tatum was not athletic enough, not a good enough shooter, wasn't consistent defensively, didn't have huge upside to grow into, and played too much of an inefficient iso-heavy style of basketball to be a star in the NBA.

In short, he was nitpicked after being considered the No. 1 prospect in the draft early on. Is the same thing happening with Doncic?

 

[Hoop Head]

That's one of the issues with Doncic. He's not a finished product and right now he's a 6'8 PG or Point Forward. Where will he play when he is in his prime? I think that is holding some teams back from picking him. He may fit now as a PG but once he gets bigger and stronger he may not be able to PG and unless he's all he's hyped to be and more, do they have space to move him to the wing?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Interesting you bring the Tatum thing up...That was also in this article:

In discussions about Doncic over the past month or two, some scouts have told me they believe they whiffed in their evaluation of Jayson Tatum -- and think of Doncic as a comparable case to try to learn from. Looking back, they question why they felt Tatum was not athletic enough, not a good enough shooter, wasn't consistent defensively, didn't have huge upside to grow into, and played too much of an inefficient iso-heavy style of basketball to be a star in the NBA.

In short, he was nitpicked after being considered the No. 1 prospect in the draft early on. Is the same thing happening with Doncic?

It's just such an obvious comparison. All players coming into the NBA are projections to a certain extent. I think it was Bill Walsh of the 49ers who wanted to know what a player did well, not what they were bad at.

When I viewed Tatum, I saw a guy that will be a 20 ppg scorer in the NBA, almost guaranteed.

When I look at Ayton, I see a double double machine, and I don't think a guy as athletic as he is will be that bad defensively.

When I look at Doncic, I see a guy who is going to get a bunch of triple doubles and do all the little things to make a team win.

Which one is the most likely to meet their ceiling though because both have pretty high floors. That's the question and I go with Ayton every time even though I think Doncic is going to be a great player. With the number one overall pick, I think that is the real question to who you take is who is going to have the highest floor.

 

[Krangodnzr]

That's one of the issues with Doncic. He's not a finished product and right now he's a 6'8 PG or Point Forward. Where will he play when he is in his prime? I think that is holding some teams back from picking him. He may fit now as a PG but once he gets bigger and stronger he may not be able to PG and unless he's all he's hyped to be and more, do they have space to move him to the wing?

Doncic will be a point. Whether that is a point forward or point guard is really irrelevant to me. This would allow to team to find a 3 and D type guard to play that spot since teams will likely use a SF to guard him.

 

[Hoop Head]

Doncic will be a point. Whether that is a point forward or point guard is really irrelevant to me. This would allow to team to find a 3 and D type guard to play that spot since teams will likely use a SF to guard him.

See, you say that and there are a dozen other posts here that would disagree saying he'll be a SF who runs the offense a lot, like a point forward, and then another half dozen or so that agree and say he will be a PG. Everyone is split on what position he'll be and as he gets older and fills out, that will change even more. If he were 20 pounds lighter I'd say he stands a better chance of being a PG next year but his build is much larger than Lonzo Ball or Ben Simmons, who are big Point Guards. We'll see.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

uh... yeah. that ain't kosher.



i've seen him projected best case scenario close to that more than a couple times... or at least seen Magic's name brought up in convo when talking about him, talking about how he could punish smaller guards like Magic did and how he wouldn't have guard smaller guards like Magic.

None of what you just typed is anyone saying he will be magic or counting on it. Words matter.

 

[JCSunsfan]

NFL fans remember when teams were unjustly skeptical of a prospect.....his name was Aaron Rodgers. I loved Aaron Rodgers coming out of Cal and I remember thinking teams were crazy passing on him. I think if Doncic falls out of the top 3, it's likely that at least two of those teams will be kicking themselves five years from now.

Doncic IS NOT a finished product. Why is it that teams will gamble on college kids who are the same age but have shown so much less than Doncic? I think the answer is plain that the NBA is in love with elite athleticism. That's how guys like Tatum get devalued. Last year, I liked Tatum over Jackson because I felt that while Jackson might be a better athlete, Tatum was more of a sure thing. I feel the same way about Ayton and Doncic this year, with Ayton having the edge because his skills are just a little bit more elite.

Why would they gamble on college kids over Doncic? Because, being a pro and playing so many games means he is a more finished product. This is going to sound contradictory, but it is not. He has had more experience and more development. While that is good, and he is ahead NCAA freshmen a year removed from high school, it also means he is closer to his peak than those players. Its all speculation. But one of the things you have to speculate on is how close is he to being a finished product. While Luka is 19, he is already a long way down that path. I am guessing here. But it makes sense to me.