Defensive Concerns

[Mitch]

Now that Whiz has been extended...I have complete confidence that with him orchestrating the offense we will be extremely competitive throughout his tenure here. In fact, even though KW is retired I believe that the Cardinals' offense could even become stronger in the years ahead. I attribute much of Warner's success to Whiz's handling of him, and Whiz's ability to put the players in the best possible position to succeed.

I also applaud Whiz for giving the rookies roles and integrating them more quickly into his system.

I did not see the same with Bill Davis.

It was his first year as DC...so I imagine he deserves a Mulligan of sorts. But this year he is going to have to integrate an infusion of youth into his defense and he has to give those players reasonable roles and expectations.

But here's my greatest concern...we have a cadre of promising young 3-4 OLBers in Messers Brown, Davis, Washington and Baggs...but...can any or all of them be effective DEs in the 4 man rush? This is a huge question and one of the interesting dilemmas of the 3-4 defense. These days you need quick athletic players on the edge in the 3-4 who can be on the smaller quicker side, but MOST of the time these days you need to use the 4 man rush on passing downs...which means you have to have legitimate 4-3 DE types.

While Clark Haggans offered a good, solid effort on his side in 4 man rushes, he is still a bit older and undersized for the role.

IMO, what the Cardinals need to strongly consider is complementing the 3-4 OLBers with legitimate 4-3 DEs (what B-Train offered the team)...which is why it behooves the Cardinals to look very closely at acquiring Joey Porter (he's an edge threat in any defense), or Aaron Kampman (4 man line edge rusher), or look to draft a pure pass rusher in the draft a la Brandon Graham (Michigan) or Carlos Dunlap (Florida) or Jerry Hughes (TCU).

IMO, we need both Porter and one of these guys.

We also need much better pass defenders in the secondary...which is why, if we are going to grab a pass rusher at #26, we need to sign one or two UFAs and then draft another CB as early as possible.

The depth at those two positions (DE and CB) is of utmost importance.

While I agree with the sentiment of grabbing a talented NT...the reality is they only really help you on first downs and on short yardage situations. You stuff a team on first down, the NT comes out, because you are anticipating two straight passes, so you go into the 4 man rush sets, with possible blitz options.

This is why...and this is the Aquarian in me...I think in years to come, that unless the roster numbers increase, teams will start to abandon the 3-4, because it requires you to have NTs, quick all-purpose OLBers and stout, quick edge rushing DEs for when you switch over to the 4 man rush. Too many pieces for so small and limited a roster.

 

[WildBB]

MOST of the time these days you need to use the 4 man rush on passing downs...which means you have to have legitimate 4-3 DE types.

While Clark Haggans offered a good, solid effort on his side in 4 man rushes, he is still a bit older and undersized for the role.

IMO, what the Cardinals need to strongly consider is complementing the 3-4 OLBers with legitimate 4-3 DEs (what B-Train offered the team)...which is why it behooves the Cardinals to look very closely at acquiring Joey Porter (he's an edge threat in any defense), or Aaron Kampman (4 man line edge rusher), or look to draft a pure pass rusher in the draft a la Brandon Graham (Michigan) or Carlos Dunlap (Florida) or Jerry Hughes (TCU).

IMO, we need both Porter and one of these guys.

Now we're talking WMitch! Yes they have to strongly consider any of aformentioned prospects seriously in April. I think all those mentioned will be atop the draft board along with Weatherspoon and Kindle. It will be a tough call, but I believe more than one of them will be there when we pick, and that's pretty good value there, IMO. I think they're very high on Weatherspoon now, and they could do much worse than that with the first pick. Like you said Graham, Dunlap and Hughes have to be in that mix as well. Any one of those could be at the top of their board when they pick. Add another name if you like Kyle Wilson of BSU that high. One of these will be the likely pick.

You mention also that teams (our team esp.) employ the 4 man rush on 3rd down obvious passing situations. While that holds true for our personell the past few seasons, I think ultimately the staff would prefer to have the personell to stay in the base 3-4 on passing downs as well. First off, it's what makes a team like Pitt so devestatingly effective when the OL has no idea where the pressure is going to come from rather than see a base four man line, in stances in front of them. If you can develop that edge rush from either side, it makes the overall pass rush that more effective. That's why, I agree that any of the above picks would go a long way in get-n-r-done.

I'd also take Kampman and Porter here any day.

 

[Duckjake]

As long as Adrian Wilson is on defense the Cardinals will never be anything but mediocre on that side of the ball.

Without him they can't stop the run and with him they can't stop the pass. A real dilemma for any defensive staff.

 

[kerouac9]

As long as Adrian Wilson is on defense the Cardinals will never be anything but mediocre on that side of the ball.

Without him they can't stop the run and with him they can't stop the pass. A real dilemma for any defensive staff.

I think that's why you see so much of the three-safety defense. That essentially makes Wilson a linebacker in nickel situations. The problem is that we didn't have six defensive backs that could play last year. Hopefully that changes as Toler develops and we hold on to our current group of safeties. Especially if Rashad Johnson develops as the Cards had hoped, we would have a legit center-fielder out there.

 

[187]

I would be happy as a pig in...if we signed Porter (or Kampman) and then drafted Graham or Hughes. If Weatherspoon and Graham/Hughes are on the board when we draft it is going to be very interesting.

 

[football karma]

I think that's why you see so much of the three-safety defense. That essentially makes Wilson a linebacker in nickel situations. The problem is that we didn't have six defensive backs that could play last year. Hopefully that changes as Toler develops and we hold on to our current group of safeties. Especially if Rashad Johnson develops as the Cards had hoped, we would have a legit center-fielder out there.

who would have thunk Matt Ware was so important?

Him being in the game meant Adrian Wilson could play within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage on passing plays --

 

[Chopper0080]

Jerry Hughes could be available when we pick in the 2nd round.

 

[WildBB]

Jerry Hughes could be available when we pick in the 2nd round.

Sounds like another ASFN board wager.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think that's why you see so much of the three-safety defense. That essentially makes Wilson a linebacker in nickel situations. The problem is that we didn't have six defensive backs that could play last year. Hopefully that changes as Toler develops and we hold on to our current group of safeties. Especially if Rashad Johnson develops as the Cards had hoped, we would have a legit center-fielder out there.

Exactly we have 3 safeties out there a lot. None of us have any idea what to expect from Johnson because he played so little and when he did, at times so poorly. Hopefully he'll be much better next year but it won't surprise me at all to see us pursue another safety especially if we lose Rolle as expected.

On the comments about Kampmann, people need to read why he might be available, the Packers switched to a 3-4 and kampmann was completely ineffective and eventually got benched. So if we're a 3-4 team why would we throw money at a guy who lost his job because they moved to a 3-4?

Don't like Dunlap at all, i agree with the guys on NFL net he just doesn't seem to know what he's doing, he looked horrible in all the drills I watched and the commentators singled him out repeatedly for having hurt himself.

 

[Catfish]

I would think that the key to our defense this year, is that we somehow have the personnel to stay in a base 3-4 configuration. That way we can scheme without having to run a lot of players in and out of the lineup, (although there are times when we would want to freshen up the group). But being able to stay within our 3-4, for the most part, would keep from giving away just where the trouble is likely to come from on the part of the offense. It would go far to holding the QB that extra count, which is often the difference between defending successfully, or giving up big plays.

The purpose of having a solid nose tackle, is that he can occuppy a double team, (even command a double team), and thus free up ILB's to make tackles. We have lacked that in our defense.

 

[WildBB]

Exactly we have 3 safeties out there a lot. None of us have any idea what to expect from Johnson because he played so little and when he did, at times so poorly. Hopefully he'll be much better next year but it won't surprise me at all to see us pursue another safety especially if we lose Rolle as expected.

On the comments about Kampmann, people need to read why he might be available, the Packers switched to a 3-4 and kampmann was completely ineffective and eventually got benched. So if we're a 3-4 team why would we throw money at a guy who lost his job because they moved to a 3-4?

Don't like Dunlap at all, i agree with the guys on NFL net he just doesn't seem to know what he's doing, he looked horrible in all the drills I watched and the commentators singled him out repeatedly for having hurt himself.

At a fair price Kampman would be a good replacement for Berry. But I agree it's time to move full speed to a 3-4 alignment even though it'd probably be more of a 3-3-5 for us on passing downs. Three true LB's-DE/OLB's.

With Kampman we'd be back to 4-2-5 with Wilson being one of the quasi-LB's, along with Haggins, mtl.

Which format would give you a bigger bang in nickle!?

Edit: If you can get him at a bargain, maybe they employ both schemes to varying degree's depending on match ups. Nowdays you have to throw out different looks in the same game.

 

[WarnerHOF]

As long as Adrian Wilson is on defense the Cardinals will never be anything but mediocre on that side of the ball.

Without him they can't stop the run and with him they can't stop the pass. A real dilemma for any defensive staff.

Well that's a coaching problem if Wilson is being used so much in man coverage. I personally think Wilson can hold his own in zone, not as good as Ed Reed or Polamalu but he's up there. Ed Reed is also terrible in man coverage btw.

 

[Garthshort]

Mitch, on plays when we switch to a 4-3, do you think that Calais Campbell could play as a DE?

 

[kerouac9]

Mitch, on plays when we switch to a 4-3, do you think that Calais Campbell could play as a DE?

I do. Antonio Smith played strong side DE (up against the RT) when the Cards were still running a 3-4 defense. I see no reason why the Cards wouldn't put him in the same position.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Why would Kampman even consider Arizona? He's going to a 4-3 team where he can play and rush the passer. I doubt hitting the FA market that he's looking to go to a team and be a situational player. KVB ,being 2 years older, may be a more likely situational type player.

 

[Catfish]

I am much more concerned with finding some way to put Quality ILB's into our game than I am at adding big DE's as pass rush guys. I would love to see us be able to lay our hands on Rolando McClaine, but there is almost no way he should drop to the 26 spot. Weatherspoon is a possibliity at 26, and will almost surely be our biggest need at that point. I would think that even if a couple of guys like Kyle Wilson or Devin McCourty, or even Brandon Graham are there as well at 26, we pass on them to take Weatherspoon, based on the value he brings to meeting our needs.

I know that sucks in the eyes of may people, (me included), but from the holes we have allowed to develop in our defense, drafting for need, (at least this year), is going to almost be a given at some point. We will probably pass on players ranked slightly ahead of our selection to take someone who fills a serious need for us. Right now, I see our number one need as a Quality ILB, due to Dansby leaving, and Hayes having chronic back problems. We NEED to address that problem, although we could help it by picking up Larry Foote in Free agency. Barring that, I don't see us passing on Weatherspoon if he is available at 26, unless somehow McClaine drops to us there.

 

[kerouac9]

Why would Kampman even consider Arizona? He's going to a 4-3 team where he can play and rush the passer. I doubt hitting the FA market that he's looking to go to a team and be a situational player. KVB ,being 2 years older, may be a more likely situational type player.

This. Kampmann's FA schedule is going to look like Carolina, Jacksonville, Chicago, Cincy (he'd be a great fit as a Bengal)... and then the 3-4 teams. Kampmann wasn't comfortable with the transition to the Dom Capers defense at all. He can still make one more big contract before he's ready for the kind of ego-deflating deal that Berry got last season.

I am much more concerned with finding some way to put Quality ILB's into our game than I am at adding big DE's as pass rush guys. I would love to see us be able to lay our hands on Rolando McClaine, but there is almost no way he should drop to the 26 spot. Weatherspoon is a possibliity at 26, and will almost surely be our biggest need at that point. I would think that even if a couple of guys like Kyle Wilson or Devin McCourty, or even Brandon Graham are there as well at 26, we pass on them to take Weatherspoon, based on the value he brings to meeting our needs.

I know that sucks in the eyes of may people, (me included), but from the holes we have allowed to develop in our defense, drafting for need, (at least this year), is going to almost be a given at some point. We will probably pass on players ranked slightly ahead of our selection to take someone who fills a serious need for us. Right now, I see our number one need as a Quality ILB, due to Dansby leaving, and Hayes having chronic back problems. We NEED to address that problem, although we could help it by picking up Larry Foote in Free agency. Barring that, I don't see us passing on Weatherspoon if he is available at 26, unless somehow McClaine drops to us there.

I don't think you'll have to worry about Wilson or Graham being on the board when the Cards pick. Buffalo's transitioning to a 3-4 defense, and they'll likely be looking for another pass rusher to pair with Maybin. Wilson is generally considered the second-best CB in the draft now; he'll be gone well before we pick. There are usually 5-8 DBs taken in the first round of a draft.

The question the Cards may have at 26th overall is between Weatherspoon and T. Cody. I think that you're going to be in good shape either way.

The fixation of certain members of the board right now on getting CBs is difficult for me to understand. If you upgrade the pass rush in front of our secondary, even Bryant McFadden is going to look servicable. We're not spending our first-round pick on a guy that might compete for the nickel job this fall.

 

[Cardiac]

This. Kampmann's FA schedule is going to look like Carolina, Jacksonville, Chicago, Cincy (he'd be a great fit as a Bengal)... and then the 3-4 teams. Kampmann wasn't comfortable with the transition to the Dom Capers defense at all. He can still make one more big contract before he's ready for the kind of ego-deflating deal that Berry got last season.

Spot on.

I don't think you'll have to worry about Wilson or Graham being on the board when the Cards pick. Buffalo's transitioning to a 3-4 defense, and they'll likely be looking for another pass rusher to pair with Maybin. Wilson is generally considered the second-best CB in the draft now; he'll be gone well before we pick. There are usually 5-8 DBs taken in the first round of a draft.

I agree with this as well.

The question the Cards may have at 26th overall is between Weatherspoon and T. Cody. I think that you're going to be in good shape either way.

I like the pick of Spoon because he can play WIL or OLB. T Cody is also attractive (as a pick) but as you have pointed out picking NT is more of a crap shoot then most positions. I also think someone will drop that nobody expects to drop since this is such a deep draft.

The fixation of certain members of the board right now on getting CBs is difficult for me to understand. If you upgrade the pass rush in front of our secondary, even Bryant McFadden is going to look servicable. We're not spending our first-round pick on a guy that might compete for the nickel job this fall.

I am fixated in improving the quality of DB's on this team. Ralph Brown and Adams must be upgraded. We have 1 safety under contract as of March 5th. A pass rush does go a long way to helping but you still have to have some kinda talent at the DB position. DRC is coming of a knee injury, Toler shows promise but... and McFadden is solidish.

Before you and BuckyBird jump all over me I do want an OLB pass rusher added to the team. I just believe you gotta go BPA in Rd 1 and if that's a DB then COOL.

 

[Catfish]

This. Kampmann's FA schedule is going to look like Carolina, Jacksonville, Chicago, Cincy (he'd be a great fit as a Bengal)... and then the 3-4 teams. Kampmann wasn't comfortable with the transition to the Dom Capers defense at all. He can still make one more big contract before he's ready for the kind of ego-deflating deal that Berry got last season.



I don't think you'll have to worry about Wilson or Graham being on the board when the Cards pick. Buffalo's transitioning to a 3-4 defense, and they'll likely be looking for another pass rusher to pair with Maybin. Wilson is generally considered the second-best CB in the draft now; he'll be gone well before we pick. There are usually 5-8 DBs taken in the first round of a draft.

The question the Cards may have at 26th overall is between Weatherspoon and T. Cody. I think that you're going to be in good shape either way.

The fixation of certain members of the board right now on getting CBs is difficult for me to understand. If you upgrade the pass rush in front of our secondary, even Bryant McFadden is going to look servicable. We're not spending our first-round pick on a guy that might compete for the nickel job this fall.

I think, (at least I hope), you are right about having Spoon, and Cody available at the 26 spot. If it comes to a choice between the two, for right now, I say take Spoon. Even if we take Foote in FA, Spoon would be a solid back-up immediately at WIL, and could be used as spot relief at OLB. This would give us the flexibility of having injury coverage in case Foote goes down, AND until then, a very active pass rusher for spot use at OLB. That is pretty good value in a pick so far as I am concerned.

So far as nose is concerned, I believe we could still find a decent one as late as round three, maybe even 4. I would willingly take that chance. Quality ILB's fall way off after round 2.

 

[kerouac9]

I am fixated in improving the quality of DB's on this team. Ralph Brown and Adams must be upgraded. We have 1 safety under contract as of March 5th. A pass rush does go a long way to helping but you still have to have some kinda talent at the DB position. DRC is coming of a knee injury, Toler shows promise but... and McFadden is solidish.

Before you and BuckyBird jump all over me I do want an OLB pass rusher added to the team. I just believe you gotta go BPA in Rd 1 and if that's a DB then COOL.

I agree that CB needs to be upgraded, but that's depth. If I were a GM, I'd draft a DB in rounds 4-6 every single season and just see how they develop. That's where I'd take one here, as well. You need your 1st round picks to contribute in some way their rookie seasons if you're going to make a run at a title, and I don't see using a first round pick on a 4th cornerback.

As for safeties, I fully believe that the Cards are going to retain either Matt Ware or Antrel Rolle, and I think they'll probably keep both when all is said and done. But I wouldn't mind taking a hybrid DB in that 4-6 round area.

I think, (at least I hope), you are right about having Spoon, and Cody available at the 26 spot. If it comes to a choice between the two, for right now, I say take Spoon. Even if we take Foote in FA, Spoon would be a solid back-up immediately at WIL, and could be used as spot relief at OLB. This would give us the flexibility of having injury coverage in case Foote goes down, AND until then, a very active pass rusher for spot use at OLB. That is pretty good value in a pick so far as I am concerned.

So far as nose is concerned, I believe we could still find a decent one as late as round three, maybe even 4. I would willingly take that chance. Quality ILB's fall way off after round 2.

I would probably take Spoon as well, if we sign either Jimmy Kennedy or Fred Robbins or both. If we still have only Bryan Robinson and Gabe Watson on the roster come April, it'd be a tougher choice.

That said, I can't believe there's already a groundswell to play Sean Witherspoon at OLB. Didn't we learn this lesson with Dansby? Spoon is too small to take on OTs from that pass rusher position, and you'd be wasting his talents.

Besides that, you're better off giving those reps to the plethora of young guys that we're trying to teach the OLB position right now. Especially if we bring in a Joey Porter type to provide some veteran insurance. I'd much rather have Cody getting those pass rush reps than Spoon.

 

[Cardiac]

I agree that CB needs to be upgraded, but that's depth. If I were a GM, I'd draft a DB in rounds 4-6 every single season and just see how they develop. That's where I'd take one here, as well. You need your 1st round picks to contribute in some way their rookie seasons if you're going to make a run at a title, and I don't see using a first round pick on a 4th cornerback.

First off this means that your 100% confident in DRC coming back fully healthy this year. Odds are good but.... You're also feeling good about Toler, me too but....The other thing to consider is a #4 CB will see playing time, especially if they are more talented then your 3rd safety.

As for safeties, I fully believe that the Cards are going to retain either Matt Ware or Antrel Rolle, and I think they'll probably keep both when all is said and done. But I wouldn't mind taking a hybrid DB in that 4-6 round area.

I truly hope you are right.


I would probably take Spoon as well, if we sign either Jimmy Kennedy or Fred Robbins or both. If we still have only Bryan Robinson and Gabe Watson on the roster come April, it'd be a tougher choice.

That said, I can't believe there's already a groundswell to play Sean Witherspoon at OLB. Didn't we learn this lesson with Dansby? Spoon is too small to take on OTs from that pass rusher position, and you'd be wasting his talents.

Besides that, you're better off giving those reps to the plethora of young guys that we're trying to teach the OLB position right now. Especially if we bring in a Joey Porter type to provide some veteran insurance. I'd much rather have Cody getting those pass rush reps than Spoon.

I'm a believer that you must have a quality NT for a true 3-4 to work. I did get the impression several days ago that you didn't want the Cards drafting a NT in Rd1. Did I misunderstand or did you have a change of mind?

Spoon is versitile to play OLB or WILB so depending he can help out where he is most needed. Just as you want Olinemen who can play more than one position on the unit same benefit at LB.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm a believer that you must have a quality NT for a true 3-4 to work. I did get the impression several days ago that you didn't want the Cards drafting a NT in Rd1. Did I misunderstand or did you have a change of mind?

Spoon is versitile to play OLB or WILB so depending he can help out where he is most needed. Just as you want Olinemen who can play more than one position on the unit same benefit at LB.

I agree with you on the NT. I was writing that to make fans think about whether they're looking at a true NT or just some fat DT. I'm thinking now that Terrance Cody might by a legit NT. If he is, then I think without question the Cards should draft him with the first pick. But I also understand that I really don't have the ability to gauge whether a prospect will be able to play NT. I'm not 100% sure that the Cards do either, after the Alan Branch pick, but I'm going to trust the staff that they know what they're looking for.

What I can say is that scouting NTs is exceptionally hard because most college coaches and defenses don't ask their guys to play zero-technique because they'd prefer them to collapse the pocket and get after the passer. Here's another great article on defensive line techniques that we all should read. That's one reason that I'd prefer to have a veteran presence inside; it also bolsters competition at the position.

As for playing OLB, I'm assuming that you're meaning that Weatherspoon can play OLB in 4-3 alignments. And you'd be right. In nickel packages, he'd begin playing the coverages that Dansby has played so well for us in the past few years. But I don't think that he'd fit in at the 3-4 OLB position in our defense, just like I've never thought that Dansby could, as well.

Weatherspoon does not like to take on blockers, and he wouldn't be liking to do that in the NFL, either.

 

[PortlandCardFan]

This. Kampmann's FA schedule is going to look like Carolina, Jacksonville, Chicago, Cincy (he'd be a great fit as a Bengal)... and then the 3-4 teams. Kampmann wasn't comfortable with the transition to the Dom Capers defense at all. He can still make one more big contract before he's ready for the kind of ego-deflating deal that Berry got last season.



I don't think you'll have to worry about Wilson or Graham being on the board when the Cards pick. Buffalo's transitioning to a 3-4 defense, and they'll likely be looking for another pass rusher to pair with Maybin. Wilson is generally considered the second-best CB in the draft now; he'll be gone well before we pick. There are usually 5-8 DBs taken in the first round of a draft.

The question the Cards may have at 26th overall is between Weatherspoon and T. Cody. I think that you're going to be in good shape either way.

The fixation of certain members of the board right now on getting CBs is difficult for me to understand. If you upgrade the pass rush in front of our secondary, even Bryant McFadden is going to look servicable. We're not spending our first-round pick on a guy that might compete for the nickel job this fall.

I have to agree with this... After watching some clips of the card's D it seemed our secondary could hold out for 4-5 seconds and then fall apart. Which is why we had so many coverage sacks. First few seconds of good coverage followed by a D lineman putting his hand up (on occasion) to stop the throw and bam! Sack!