The importance of a nose-tackle

[Catfish]

Stopping the run is just part of the function of a nose tackle. The other part is to COMMAND the double team, so that the DE's are more free to be able to disrupt the backfield of the offense, whether it is pass or run. Right now, we have NO nose tackle that requires our opponent to double team our nose. Without that nasty guy in the middle that forces the opponent to double team him, staying in the 3-4 is merely playing to the strength of the offense.

 

[DoTheDew]

Stopping the run is just part of the function of a nose tackle. The other part is to COMMAND the double team, so that the DE's are more free to be able to disrupt the backfield of the offense, whether it is pass or run. Right now, we have NO nose tackle that requires our opponent to double team our nose. Without that nasty guy in the middle that forces the opponent to double team him, staying in the 3-4 is merely playing to the strength of the offense.

Exactly. A nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't just a run stuffer. He makes everyone else a better pass rusher. Find me a 3-4 team that has won the SB without a highly regarded nose tackle and I will stop thinking we need to draft one.

 

[Mulli]

Exactly. A nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't just a run stuffer. He makes everyone else a better pass rusher. Find me a 3-4 team that has won the SB without a highly regarded nose tackle and I will stop thinking we need to draft one.

Jim Burt?

 

[kerouac9]

Exactly. A nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't just a run stuffer. He makes everyone else a better pass rusher. Find me a 3-4 team that has won the SB without a highly regarded nose tackle and I will stop thinking we need to draft one.

This is a B.S. argument, though. There are tons of teams with great nose tackles that have never gotten a sniff of the super bowl (like the Cowboys and Chargers).

No one here is saying that we don't need a "highly regarded nose tackle." Who wouldn't think that we need more good players? But it's worth discussing how those players are found, and more often than not it's outside of the first round of the draft.

That's the difference between my argument and the straw man Ryan Leaf/Tom Brady argument that Joe is accusing me of making. There are 12 teams in the NFL right now who run the 3-4 defense (Arizona, San Francisco, New England, Pittsburgh, New York Jets, Miami, Dallas, San Diego, Green Bay, Kansas City, Denver, Cleveland). For the majority of them they found their NT either through free agency or outside the first round.

Even Ted Washington didn't make his first Pro Bowl as a nose tackle until he was on his third NFL team.

 

[WildBB]

Exactly. A nose tackle in a 3-4 isn't just a run stuffer. He makes everyone else a better pass rusher. Find me a 3-4 team that has won the SB without a highly regarded nose tackle and I will stop thinking we need to draft one.

I would love to find a possible good one after the 1st round. Give me the pass rusher 1st. Like it's been said it's a QB driven league and mostly it comes down to putting the hurrt on them in 3rd down situations. The NT is going to be out of the game in those situations unless he's prodigous at getting after the QB, which most of the time isn't the case.

Odricks name has been mentioned. Why not him or Graham. Slide Dockett inside with someone (Branch?) and have Odrick/Graham and Campbell on the ends.

Then you'd have any nickle combination of 2 LB's (Wilson and Haggins) and 5 DB's in the package.

It would go a long way in stopping our passing woes. We'd need to bolster the secondary with another cover S that can cover ground. I also want another CB.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Hey CardsfanMD, Did you even read my posts?

I tried, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I struggled comprehending much of your thought process.

This is a trend started by none other than Deion Sanders, and in my estimation it stinks. Right now he is not in the HOF, but he will probably get there. He wouldn't get there with my vote though

Deion Sanders doesn't deserve to go to the Hall??? Stuff like that makes it very hard to take you seriously.

There is no hating on any of our players. I did not hate on DRC. I am not hating on anybody

So what does this constitute as:

I only stated that he (DRC) plays only the pass, and will not tackle. Our entire secondary plays like this with the exception of Adrian Wilson, and is a HUGE reason why we play so soft at the end of games. How different would the Titans game have been if just one DB would have forced a tackle on 4th down in any one of the 4 situations where they went for it and made it on 4th and long. How many other games might have been won, INCLUDING THE SUPERBOWL IF WE COULD HAVE MADE JUST ONE STOP ON THE OPPONENT'S LAST BIG DRIVE.

We didn't stop the Titans because Davis was scared, McFadden never turned around, we couldn't get after the QB and above all, VY knows how to perform in the clutch. A soft secondary wasn't the culprit. FWIW, Rolle and McFadden are as physical of players for their respective positions as you will find.

In the end, I'd like to finish this post with a quote. This was the most fitting I could find: "What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."-Principal from Billy Madison

 

[DoTheDew]

This is a B.S. argument, though. There are tons of teams with great nose tackles that have never gotten a sniff of the super bowl (like the Cowboys and Chargers).

No one here is saying that we don't need a "highly regarded nose tackle." Who wouldn't think that we need more good players? But it's worth discussing how those players are found, and more often than not it's outside of the first round of the draft.

That's the difference between my argument and the straw man Ryan Leaf/Tom Brady argument that Joe is accusing me of making. There are 12 teams in the NFL right now who run the 3-4 defense (Arizona, San Francisco, New England, Pittsburgh, New York Jets, Miami, Dallas, San Diego, Green Bay, Kansas City, Denver, Cleveland). For the majority of them they found their NT either through free agency or outside the first round.

Even Ted Washington didn't make his first Pro Bowl as a nose tackle until he was on his third NFL team.

The free agency route would certainly be perferred, but outside of Casey Hampton who is old and may not have much left in the tank this may not be an option. Additionally, the 3-4 has been growing in the NFL so the competition for 3-4 NTs in free agency is going to be much more fierce from now on. When Ted Washington was a young'in 3-4 wasn't nearly as popular. Blame NE and Pitt for that. The trend of moving towards 3-4 also decreases the likely hood that drafting one late will be as successful. More teams are going to have these guys on their radars than in years past.

Will we get better value this year from a 1st round LB than a NT? More than likely yes. But in 5 years when the contract is up we will be saying the same thing as we say about Dansby now. "Not worth the money." Whereas DL tend to take longer to develop, if they develop they are much more valuable. Most coaches say football is won in the trenches. That alone makes NT>ILB/OLB.

 

[Catfish]

I tried, but I'd be lying if I didn't say that I struggled comprehending much of your thought process. Deion Sanders doesn't deserve to go to the Hall??? Stuff like that makes it very hard to take you seriously.



So what does this constitute as:

We didn't stop the Titans because Davis was scared, McFadden never turned around, we couldn't get after the QB and above all, VY knows how to perform in the clutch. A soft secondary wasn't the culprit. FWIW, Rolle and McFadden are as physical of players for their respective positions as you will find.

In the end, I'd like to finish this post with a quote. This was the most fitting I could find: "What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."-Principal from Billy Madison

You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. I never said that Deion shouldn't be in the hall of fame ----- just that he would never get there with MY vote. I recall (little DB's from the past), who played the run and the pass, and who would knock you silly if you came to their side of the field with the ball. ( Have you ever heard of Pat Fisher)? They played the game like it was meant to be played. Today we have guys like Deion and Simeon Rice who literally turn their backs to a ball carrier. Personally, I think it is a disgrace to the other players in the Hall of Fame that these (so called) warriors are even being considered for that hallowed place. I don't believe that I am alone in that opinion either. I don't get off on seeing people get accolades for being good enough to only play at half of what they were capable of.

In the Titans game there were 3 distinct 4 down plays that our secondary either whiffed on the tackle, or made no attempt at the tackle, which allowed the receiver to carry the ball out of bounds to stop the clock. At least two of those passes were completed short of what was needed for first down yardage. Any tackle there puts the game out of reach.

So far as your quote is concerned ----- I will match it with another, ----- "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" (unknown).

 

[cardsfanmd]

You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. I never said that Deion shouldn't be in the hall of fame ----- just that he would never get there with MY vote.

????? Please re-read that and get back to me. You think he should make the Hall but you wouldn't vote for him??

I recall (little DB's from the past), who played the run and the pass, and who would knock you silly if you came to their side of the field with the ball. ( Have you ever heard of Pat Fisher)? They played the game like it was meant to be played. Today we have guys like Deion and Simeon Rice who literally turn their backs to a ball carrier. Personally, I think it is a disgrace to the other players in the Hall of Fame that these (so called) warriors are even being considered for that hallowed place. I don't believe that I am alone in that opinion either. I don't get off on seeing people get accolades for being good enough to only play at half of what they were capable of.

First off, it's Pat Fischer. Secondly, he was one of my favorite players and a beast in his own right---being a smaller DB I modeled my game after his. The problem is that he played in a very different era. There were no 300lb men running 4.6's back then. He was also allowed to play much differently in his day. Defenders aren't allowed to be half as physical as they used to be. Another noteworthy stat, Fischer had 50+ picks but only 4 TDs. Deion played 2 less years and has nearly 100 picks and 10 TDs IIRC. Cromartie is 2 years into his career and already has 13 and 2. Very different players, but personally I'll take the guy who gets my offense back of the field over the one who makes a big hit while the opposing team is marching. I have a feeling all 32 NFL GMs would agree with me. Al Davis might be on your side.

Also, when was Simeon "armpit of the NFL" Rice a CB?

In the Titans game there were 3 distinct 4 down plays that our secondary either whiffed on the tackle, or made no attempt at the tackle, which allowed the receiver to carry the ball out of bounds to stop the clock. At least two of those passes were completed short of what was needed for first down yardage. Any tackle there puts the game out of reach.

Young sat back in the pocket for 5-7 seconds on those plays. I could have thrown for first downs. No CBs can cover that long.

So far as your quote is concerned ----- I will match it with another, ----- "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" (unknown).

Try this gem on for size "you are a smelly pirate hooker" - Ron Burgundy

 

[Catfish]

????? Please re-read that and get back to me. You think he should make the Hall but you wouldn't vote for him??




First off, it's Pat Fischer. Secondly, he was one of my favorite players and a beast in his own right---being a smaller DB I modeled my game after his. The problem is that he played in a very different era. There were no 300lb men running 4.6's back then. He was also allowed to play much differently in his day. Defenders aren't allowed to be half as physical as they used to be. Another noteworthy stat, Fischer had 50+ picks but only 4 TDs. Deion played 2 less years and has nearly 100 picks and 10 TDs IIRC. Cromartie is 2 years into his career and already has 13 and 2. Very different players, but personally I'll take the guy who gets my offense back of the field over the one who makes a big hit while the opposing team is marching. I have a feeling all 32 NFL GMs would agree with me. Al Davis might be on your side.

Also, when was Simeon "armpit of the NFL" Rice a CB?



Young sat back in the pocket for 5-7 seconds on those plays. I could have thrown for first downs. No CBs can cover that long.



Try this gem on for size "you are a smelly pirate hooker" - Ron Burgundy

So now we are taking sides, ----- is that it?

Never said S. Rice was a CB, I only said he turned his back on ballcarriers rather than make a tackle. Deion did the same thing. (By the way, I never said that Deion should or shouldn't be in the hall), only that if he did go in, it wouldn't be with MY vote. (And yes, I am aware that I don't have one ----- its just a figure of speech).

No corner can be expected to cover for 5-7 seconds, but they should be able to tackle the ballcarrier once the pass is completed, rather than allowing him to run for first down yardage, then run out of bounds to stop the clock. We had 5 and sometimes 6 DB's in the game on that last drive, and none of them would, or could make a tackle to keep the clock running.

Sorry about the spelling error on Pat Fischer. You are, at least, correct on that.